I've said this so often that it's hard to believe you haven't heard it from me, but maybe not? My argument is that Israel was called to be a theocracy. They weren't ordered to have a centralized government except in terms of listening to a major prophet to the nation, and in matters of fighting wars. Gross cases of injustice were also a matter for the whole nation to come together on.
When the nation wanted more done for them politically, and asked for a king, God granted that for them but only under auspices of the Law. That is a theocracy. That is Bible. Why do you say I don't provide Bible when the entire Law of Moses is predicated on the nation being a theocracy?
This is not what we're talking about, though. There were no Christians yet at that time. We're talking about the concept of Christian nations. Where is THAT taught in scripture?
So I keep saying these things, and I keep getting told I don't provide the Bible.
So far in this post you still have not provided any scripture regarding the topic at hand, which is CHRISTIAN nations.
Should I provide the whole Bible as evidence of this?
How about any Bible at all? So far, all you've done is talk about Israel, but we're talking about the concept of Christian nations here.
Jesus preached the "Kingdom of God." Jesus said it had been in Israel and then would be given to a Gentile nation, which I believe was the Roman Empire who under Theodosius became a Christian "nation."
Wow. This is just unbelievable to me. You're calling the Roman Empire under Theodosius a Christian nation? I can't take that seriously. No, what Jesus was referring to is the "holy nation" that Peter wrote about in 1 Peter 2:9 which is a reference to the church.
Before you say I don't provide Bible, why don't you acknowledge that I've just done so?
Where does it indicate in scripture that the Roman empire would be come a Christian nation? I'm not seeing any scriptural evidence here for the concept of Christian nations and I can't believe that you think you've provided any.
It does no good for me to say such things only to have the same people come back and say I've said nothing biblical! So here's your chance to acknowledge it, or just go away and not be a real debater.
Randy, you are being unbelievably dishonest here. You are not providing any scriptural evidence for the concept of Christian nations here whatsoever. Everyone here can see that. Why are you acting as if you have?
Here is another one I get *all the time.* And when I answer it, the debater just goes on, complaining I provide no evidence and act as if I've said nothing. So again, here's your opportunity to prove yourself an honest debater.
That's rich for you to say this to me when you are dishonestly telling me that you are providing scriptural evidence for the concept of Christian nations when you haven't come anywhere near doing so up to this point.
Gen 17.3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.
Gal 3.7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”
Did Paul recognize that the Church is the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that he would have *nations* or not?
Yes, he did. Is the church made up of Christian nations or of individuals who put their personal faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?
You will not answer this question unless you're honest.
I do not appreciate your subtle accusations of me being dishonest here. I'm not perfect by any means, but one thing I try to be on a consistent basis is honest. So, I don't like the way you're talking to me in your post AT ALL.
Do you take all scripture into account when you read these verses? The Hebrew and Greek words translated (poorly) as "nations" in the verses you referenced have other meanings besides nations such as people, heathen, people groups and others, depending on the contest in which they are used. I believe "people" is a better translation than "nations" there. Just like in some other verses, such as Revelation 20:8, where the Greek "ethnos" is translated as "nations", yet they number "as the sand of the seashore". Oops. There aren't that many nations, so "nations" was clearly the wrong English word to use there. Another example is Matthew 28:19 which is usually translated as making disciples of all nations. No, we don't make disciples of nations, we make disciples of individual people.
Other scripture indicates that individuals who have faith like Abraham and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ are the ones who are blessed through Abraham.
Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
What is your understanding of this verse? Is this talking about nations who belong to Christ or individuals? It's clearly individuals. So, why would you not use a verse like this to help you understand the context of what Paul was saying a bit earlier in Galatians 3:8?
I could quote you Scriptures all day long because I've been studying these things for 50 years! But your accusations are empty rhetoric or, if you're truly honest, you will answer my points above, and at least acknowledge that they present evidence in my favor. Here's your opportunity: ignore it, or be truthful.
I always try to be truthful, Randy. It's unfortunate that you're trying to turn this discussion into an accusation of me being dishonest. That is not the case.
All of your claims that I don't use the Bible, and here you are acknowledging it, but simply dismissing it. Completely dishonest!
No, it isn't! You didn't point to any scripture whatsoever that could possibly be seen as talking about the concept of Christian nations until you brought up Galatians 3:7-8 in this post.
The fact is, you just disagree with my interpretation.
Your interpretation of what? What scriptures had you mentioned before this post regarding the concept of Christian nations?
You don't accept Scriptural support unless you agree. So why do you even ask for it? I'm completely willing to debate with you whether Gal 3 really identifies the Church as nations, but what do you do? You accuse me of not using the Bible! ;(
When did you quote Galatians 3:7-8 to me in support of your view of Christian nations before this? I don't recall that. So, you have a grand total of 2 verses that you use to support your view of Christian nations. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make for a strong argument. I find it completely absurd that you think it's absurd for anyone to disagree with you on this when you only have 2 verses you can reference to (supposedly) support your view.
