Another Premillennial absurdity

[CadyandZoe]

He was tested. Check the Greek word.

The Greek word can mean either test or tempt, depending on whether the test was malicious. Did Satan tempt Jesus?

 

[CadyandZoe]

"You failed to answer the question. That's all I need to know about you."

Really, what does it say about me?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I answered your question(s), now you answer mine

Once Again, Three Questions Before The Forum?

1.) Do you believe Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God?

2.) Do you believe Jesus Christ created all things?

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

3.) Do you believe the Godhead was within Jesus Christ when he walked upon this earth in a human body as seen below?

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I already answered. Apparently you forgot.

 

[Timtofly]

The term "theophany" comes from the Greek words "theos", meaning "God," and "phaneia" meaning "appearance." Theophany refers to physical manifestations of God in the Bible. The burning bush, for instance, is a theophany. Whenever the transcendent creator needs to represent himself in our reality, he creates an avatar, allowing people to interact with his avatar.

Jesus was never a theophany. He is not an avatar of God. The Bible teaches us that Jesus is a man, born to the virgin Mary, growing up in Nazareth, beginning his ministry around the age of 30, tempted by Satan, ate meals, obeyed his mother, worked as a carpenter, walked from place to place, cried when his friends died, allowed himself to be captured, convicted, and put to death on a cross. The Father, brought him back from the dead, and he ascended to sit at the right hand of the father.

In Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, speaking about God the Father, he says, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things." Here Paul draws a distinction between "God" and "his Son", claiming that it was God, not his son, who spoke long ago. It wasn't Jesus who appeared to Abraham, it was God who appeared to Abraham. It wasn't until the later days that God spoke to us in his Son. The son wasn't with God in the former days, he appeared in the later days.

He tells us that the Son inherited all things, implying that the Son didn't create all things. Rather, he (the Son) was granted all things. One does not inherit what one has created.

Jesus was the word that became flesh. In fact Jesus claimed to leave and then go create current creation.

That is my point, creation was handed to Jesus after His birth and prior to creation.

That is because Jesus is 100% God and 100% part of creation, a human.

Since Jesus was not a theophany, then the human that met Abraham was Jesus the Messiah after the Cross and after creation was created, and not just a mere theophany. That was not because he was a human time traveler, but because He was also God, and has existed outside of creation after ascending to God in 30AD.

 

[Truth7t7]

I already answered. Apparently you forgot.

Post #943 wasn't an answer to my three questions as seen below, perhaps I missed your claim of an answer?

It appears you are now running from a direct answer, why?

Quote,Post #943

CadyandZoe: Any scriptures to back that up?

CadyandZoe: Inhabit? Where is that taught in scripture?

I answered your question(s), now you answer mine

Once Again, Three Questions Before The Forum?

1.) Do you believe Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God?

2.) Do you believe Jesus Christ created all things?

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

3.) Do you believe the Godhead was within Jesus Christ when he walked upon this earth in a human body as seen below?

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Timtofly]

Please provide biblical support for your claims made, waiting?

John 8:56-58

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Jesus did not leave earth before He said that. Jesus left after the Cross. Since Jesus was the man with Abraham in the tent, He saw what happened to Jesus and rejoiced.

 

[robert derrick]

The word in the original (which it was written) is "shepherd" not rule. The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should (patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous) smite the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

Whether it's rule or shepherd, it will still be them from among the smitten nations on earth.

You proceed to interpret all Scripture from your doctrine, and I will proceed with the fact of the Lord ruling/shepherding them remaining of the smitten nations.

1. Not all the earth will be at Armageddon to make war, even as all people in a nation do not go to the battlefield.

2. It will be them gathered to make war that will all be smitten.

3. It will be in one place that the battle if fought, and it will be only to that one place that all fowls of the earth will be called to eat there flesh.

4. Those gathered to war are those of military rank and soldiers only.

The coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth,

Your leap from this earth to the new earth, makes it as a day, when it will be at at least a thousand years, that will be as a day, but no just a day.

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind.

All those that are gathered together to war against Him at Armageddon. Them not smitten He will rule with His saints.

He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth.

He's not going to lead any natural men to the new earth, which new earth won't be for another thousand years.

Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

True. There will be no more warring nor fighting, but the Lord and His saints will be ruling in righteousness, where no wars will be allowed, and no criminal acts gone unpunished.

Pretty easy when you have the resurrected Lord Himself in Jerusalem, and all His multitude of resurrected saints over every nation, state, city, and local village.

Each of them having the same divine power as the Lord Himself, and judging in His stead.

and we learn "His eyes were as a flame of fire.” Here we see the indignation that Christ has for these enemies of God upon the earth.

John also saw those flames of fire at Patmos. He wasn't destroyed.

Those that are left behind of the nations – without exception – are trampled into a lost eternity on this moment of time.

Except them He rules/shepherds with His saints.

The solemn language relates to the wrath of God being poured out on those left behind at the coming of Christ.

I'm not impressed when solemn words are brought in. It just makes me think someone is trying to impress others to agree with them.

This proves that “the nations” will not survive the wrath that emanates from Christ.

See what I mean? Solemn-sounding words don't prove anything.

How can any nation survive this closing destruction?

Now your trying to conclude something based on your own understanding and logic.

No nation as a whole will survive. Only them remaining from all the nations smitten at the scene of battle.

This is final justice being meted out of the lost.

False. That will be a thousand years later at the great white throne judgment.

What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Correct. All those from among all nations gathered to make war with the Lord and saints will be utterly slain.

Let us be clear: He is coming to smite down the nations,

These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Only those of all nations gathered to make war with the Lamb, will be smitten. Those not at the battle will only see Him with clouds of saints and mourn and wail and hide in dens and under rocks.

not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age.

You have a lousy attitude about the Lord's power to reign over the earth in peace, with ten thousands of His resurrected saints ruling every national, regional, state, city, and village government on earth.

Including all the country homesteads on earth, that they already know about.

The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Now, you have brought in Scripture to make a case. Good job. It's the first thing you should have gone to, and is the only thing that matters in the whole dispute.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

All them of the nations gathered to war with the Lamb shall all be smitten.

First with the brightness of His coming, and then the surviving remnant of the army will also be destroyed individually, after their two leaders are cast into the lake of fire.

There will be no quarter and no prisoners taken. And the fowls feeding upon their flesh are the ones called from all the earth, to the battlefield at Armageddon alone. Not all over the earth.

The fact that they are called to one place, shows they are not feeding on all flesh over all the earth.

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

True. As I said, no quarter for them gathered at that battlefield, that the Lord smites utterly, and all fowls over all the earth, will be called by God to that one place:

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

To eat up all the flesh of kings, captians, mighty men, free men and bond slaves:

That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This is an army. Not normal citizenry in their homes. Also, no children, just men.

The destruction of all them on the earth that you speak of, will not be a blood bath of the Lord and His armies, but of fire come down from God a thousand years later, that will scorch the whole earth.

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

Because it's not the marriage supper of the Lamb, but the supper of the great God.

And it's not symbolism. There will be a real army from all nations, the Lord's coming with power to smite them, and then a slaying of all them not yet dead, with all fowls of the earth called there to eat their flesh.

The blessed called to the marriage supper of the Lamb, will be those blessed with the first resurrection of the saints into the air with the Lord. Which is followed by Him and His armies going to war against the armies gathered to Armageddon on earth.

They will go to war well fed.

 

[WPM]

Whether it's rule or shepherd, it will still be them from among the smitten nations on earth.

You proceed to interpret all Scripture from your doctrine, and I will proceed with the fact of the Lord ruling/shepherding them remaining of the smitten nations.

1. Not all the earth will be at Armageddon to make war, even as all people in a nation do not go to the battlefield.

2. It will be them gathered to make war that will all be smitten.

3. It will be in one place that the battle if fought, and it will be only to that one place that all fowls of the earth will be called to eat there flesh.

4. Those gathered to war are those of military rank and soldiers only.



Your leap from this earth to the new earth, makes it as a day, when it will be at at least a thousand years, that will be as a day, but no just a day.


All those that are gathered together to war against Him at Armageddon. Them not smitten He will rule with His saints.


He's not going to lead any natural men to the new earth, which new earth won't be for another thousand years.



True. There will be no more warring nor fighting, but the Lord and His saints will be ruling in righteousness, where no wars will be allowed, and no criminal acts gone unpunished.

Pretty easy when you have the resurrected Lord Himself in Jerusalem, and all His multitude of resurrected saints over every nation, state, city, and local village.

Each of them having the same divine power as the Lord Himself, and judging in His stead.



John also saw those flames of fire at Patmos. He wasn't destroyed.



Except them He rules/shepherds with His saints.


I'm not impressed when solemn words are brought in. It just makes me think someone is trying to impress others to agree with them.



See what I mean? Solemn-sounding words don't prove anything.



Now your trying to conclude something based on your own understanding and logic.

No nation as a whole will survive. Only them remaining from all the nations smitten at the scene of battle.



False. That will be a thousand years later at the great white throne judgment.


Correct. All those from among all nations gathered to make war with the Lord and saints will be utterly slain.



These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Only those of all nations gathered to make war with the Lamb, will be smitten. Those not at the battle will only see Him with clouds of saints and mourn and wail and hide in dens and under rocks.



You have a lousy attitude about the Lord's power to reign over the earth in peace, with ten thousands of His resurrected saints ruling every national, regional, state, city, and village government on earth.

Including all the country homesteads on earth, that they already know about.



Now, you have brought in Scripture to make a case. Good job. It's the first thing you should have gone to, and is the only thing that matters in the whole dispute.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

All them of the nations gathered to war with the Lamb shall all be smitten.

First with the brightness of His coming, and then the surviving remnant of the army will also be destroyed individually, after their two leaders are cast into the lake of fire.

There will be no quarter and no prisoners taken. And the fowls feeding upon their flesh are the ones called from all the earth, to the battlefield at Armageddon alone. Not all over the earth.

The fact that they are called to one place, shows they are not feeding on all flesh over all the earth.



True. As I said, no quarter for them gathered at that battlefield, that the Lord smites utterly, and all fowls over all the earth, will be called by God to that one place:

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

To eat up all the flesh of kings, captians, mighty men, free men and bond slaves:

That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This is an army. Not normal citizenry in their homes. Also, no children, just men.

The destruction of all them on the earth that you speak of, will not be a blood bath of the Lord and His armies, but of fire come down from God a thousand years later, that will scorch the whole earth.


Because it's not the marriage supper of the Lamb, but the supper of the great God.

And it's not symbolism. There will be a real army from all nations, the Lord's coming with power to smite them, and then a slaying of all them not yet dead, with all fowls of the earth called there to eat their flesh.

The blessed called to the marriage supper of the Lamb, will be those blessed with the first resurrection of the saints into the air with the Lord. Which is followed by Him and His armies going to war against the armies gathered to Armageddon on earth.

They will go to war well fed.

Until you take your Premil glasses off you will never see what the inspired text is teaching.

There are only 2 peoples on this earth in God's eyes - the redeemed and the wicked. These both are armies in conflict with each other. When Jesus returns the elect are caught up, the wicked are destroyed. These 2 peoples/armies carry one of 2 marks - God's mark or the world's mark of reprobation.

They are represented as 2 armies that are in conflict. God's army returns with Him, the devil's are destroyed by Christ's Coming. You are trying to limit what the Holy Spirit is saying. All flesh is destroyed here as it was in Noah's day and in Sodom. There were no survivors. You are side-stepping the actual wording of Revelation 19.

The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should [Gr. patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous] smite the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

This reading closely mirrors that of Matthew 25:31-33, 41, where Christ is also describing the great separation which occurs at His Second Coming, saying, “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be [Gr. pas ho ethnos kai aphorizo autous] ‘gathered all nations: and he shall separate them’ one from another, as a poimen (or) shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats” (vv 31-32).

He continues, “And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world…Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels…And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (33-34, 41, 46).

1. There is finality to Christ’s coming.
2. Both the sheep and the goats are judged before the same judge and the same throne at the same time.
3. The righteous and wicked are finally and eternally separated.

The scene pictured in Revelation 19 is exactly the same as that in Matthew 25. It is that of a shepherd with a rod dividing for all time two co-existing yet completely diverse types of kind. The Shepherd here is Christ, the sheep and the goats that he divides are the righteous and the wicked, the event is the second coming of Christ and the judgment, and separation, that accompanies it are final, irreversible and eternal.

The sheep will eternally enjoy the presence of the Shepherd, free from the presence of the goats forever, whilst the goats will endure eternal wrath. Christ (the great shepherd) is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked, thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have persecuted His sheep throughout time. The shepherding is clearly associated with the final separation.

 

[robert derrick]

Until you take your Premil glasses off you will never see what the inspired text is teaching.

There are only 2 peoples on this earth in God's eyes - the redeemed and the wicked. These both are armies in conflict with each other. When Jesus returns the elect are caught up, the wicked are destroyed. These 2 peoples/armies carry one of 2 marks - God's mark or the world's mark of reprobation.

They are represented as 2 armies that are in conflict. God's army returns with Him, the devil's are destroyed by Christ's Coming. You are trying to limit what the Holy Spirit is saying. All flesh is destroyed here as it was in Noah's day and in Sodom. There were no survivors. You are side-stepping the actual wording of Revelation 19.

The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should [Gr. patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous] smite the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

This reading closely mirrors that of Matthew 25:31-33, 41, where Christ is also describing the great separation which occurs at His Second Coming, saying, “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be [Gr. pas ho ethnos kai aphorizo autous] ‘gathered all nations: and he shall separate them’ one from another, as a poimen (or) shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats” (vv 31-32).

He continues, “And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world…Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels…And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (33-34, 41, 46).

1. There is finality to Christ’s coming.
2. Both the sheep and the goats are judged before the same judge and the same throne at the same time.
3. The righteous and wicked are finally and eternally separated.

The scene pictured in Revelation 19 is exactly the same as that in Matthew 25. It is that of a shepherd with a rod dividing for all time two co-existing yet completely diverse types of kind. The Shepherd here is Christ, the sheep and the goats that he divides are the righteous and the wicked, the event is the second coming of Christ and the judgment, and separation, that accompanies it are final, irreversible and eternal.

The sheep will eternally enjoy the presence of the Shepherd, free from the presence of the goats forever, whilst the goats will endure eternal wrath. Christ (the great shepherd) is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked, thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have persecuted His sheep throughout time. The shepherding is clearly associated with the final separation.

I've responded to your interpretations point by point with fair alternatives, to which you refuse to acknowledge.

I'm not someone's mantra sounding board. You can recite it to others, but not to me anymore.

 

[WPM]

I've responded to your interpretations point by point with fair alternatives, to which you refuse to acknowledge.

I'm not someone's mantra sounding board. You can recite it to others, but not to me anymore.

No you have not. You are forcing your opinions upon the sacred text. It doesn't add up. It is totally un-corroborative. Every tenet of Amil has multiple support Scriptures. Premil has nothing to support all their main tenets.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I answered your question(s), now you answer mine

Once Again, Three Questions Before The Forum?

1.) Do you believe Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God?

2.) Do you believe Jesus Christ created all things?

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

3.) Do you believe the Godhead was within Jesus Christ when he walked upon this earth in a human body as seen below?

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

1.) Do you believe Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God?
No. In the beginning was the "word", (John 1:1) which is not a person. The term "word" refers to a promise, or a script. I believe the specific promise John had in mind was stated throughout the Bible in such places as Isaiah 9:6-7 concerning a son that would rule over Israel forever and Ezekiel 37:25-28.

2.) Do you believe Jesus Christ created all things?
No, God created all things. Genesis 1:1-11 Paul is telling us that God created all things "In view of his son Jesus Christ." Everything God created has a purpose and the overall purpose for the creation is for his son, Jesus Christ, to have dominion over the entire earth forever.

3.) Do you believe the Godhead was within Jesus Christ when he walked upon this earth in a human body as seen below?
There is no such thing as a "Godhead." There is God, and there is the son of God. Jesus Christ is the son of God; he is the image of God; whenever we see him, we see the Father. John 14:9

 

[CadyandZoe]

He was tested. Check the Greek word.

To be tested by Satan is to be tempted by Satan. Jesus was tested by Satan. Can God be tested or tempted?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus was the word that became flesh. In fact Jesus claimed to leave and then go create current creation.

The word, which became flesh, is not a person. "The word" is a promise. When the Bible says that God keeps his word, it means God never makes a promise he doesn't keep. God promised that he would rule over all Creation. That promise became flesh and walked among us.

That is my point, creation was handed to Jesus after His birth and prior to creation.

This seems a bit contradictory. Which is it, "after his birth" or "prior to creation?" It can't be both at the same time and in the same way. The New Testament teaches us that Jesus Christ is the purpose of all that God created; everything was made with him in view. This is why, for instance, it says that Jesus is the lamb slain "before the world was founded." In other words, God planned to have Jesus Christ become the focal point of all of history, not only including is birth, but also his life, his death on the cross, his resurrection and his ascension. Before God made anything at all, he planned everything out in advance.

That is because Jesus is 100% God and 100% part of creation, a human.

The New Testament draws a distinction between "what" Jesus is, and "who" Jesus is. With regard to the question "what is Jesus?" the answer is "Jesus is a man." With regard to the question, "who is Jesus" the answer is "Jesus is the son of God" the one whom God will place all things under his feet.

Since Jesus was not a theophany, then the human that met Abraham was Jesus the Messiah after the Cross and after creation was created, and not just a mere theophany. That was not because he was a human time traveler, but because He was also God, and has existed outside of creation after ascending to God in 30AD.

hmm, maybe. We can't know this for sure.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Post #943 wasn't an answer to my three questions as seen below, perhaps I missed your claim of an answer?

It appears you are now running from a direct answer, why?

People tend to see what they want to see. I thought you were with the conversation from the beginning. Maybe not. So I gave you a direct answer. Hopefully, this has helped you with your own studies.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This passage shows, in unmistakable language, that “the Word” is Christ. It reveals the King of Glory in all His marvelous provision, purpose and power. The reading outlines His eternal pre-existence, powerfully revealing Him as the eternal Son of God; “The same was in the beginning with God” (v 2). Whilst, Christ was man of very man, He was also God of very God. Verse 1 succinctly says, “the Word was God.” Therefore, as the second person of the Trinity, He was the eternal Creator of this world.” Verse 10 tells us, “the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”

You have been misinformed. In my view, the following is what John intends to say.

In the beginning was the word
Here the term "word" refers to a promise God made concerning his plans to literally and physically dwell among his people, ruling over Israel and ultimately over the entire world. He will dwell in Jerusalem and walk among his people.
[The term "word" doesn't refer to a second person of the Trinity.]

and the word was with God
Here the term "with" refers to the power and agency that will bring about the promise. In other words, fulfillment of the promise depends solely on God alone. The promise resides under his purview alone and will come about according to his power and under his authority alone. [John is not proposing that one member of a Godhead resides with another member of a Godhead.]

and the word was God.
The promise was God himself. Both testaments of the Bible speak about the promise that God himself would live and rule in the presence of his people. The promise is that God will "dwell among us." [John is not asserting that the Godhead contains a second person who is also God.]

At the first, the promises of God are potentially true until the day that the promises are fulfilled, when they become actually true.

And the word became flesh and dwelt among us
The promise that God would "dwell among us", which at first was potentially true, became a reality in Jesus Christ. In Jesus Christ, the promise was actualized and realized.

and we saw His glory
John and his people witnessed the glory of God the father

glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jesus is known as "the only begotten" which is language taken from Psalm 2. This particular Psalm, recognized as a correlation Psalm, speaks about the King of Israel, whom God recognizes as his son. (Refer to 1 Samuel 7) The king becomes the son of God on the day that a son of David begins his rule on the throne of David. On THAT day (not when he is born) it is said of him, "today I have begotten you."

Jesus is the particular son of David who will literally and completely fulfill the promise of Psalm 2. One day, in our future, The Lord will install his king, Jesus Christ, upon Zion and establish him on his holy mountain. And at that time the Lord will give him the nations as his inheritance and the very ends of the earth as his possession.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I Corinthians 8:6 says: “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

Yet, for us
By contrast with those who believe in other gods, the followers of Jesus Christ believe there is but one God.

there is one God, the Father
Yes, Paul declares that "there is but one God, the Father," which stands in direct opposition against the false teachers who say that the one God is one essence in three people. Paul clearly declares that the one God IS the Father alone.

of whom are all things
Here Paul refers to "ta panta" in Greek, which is erroneously translated "all things". It could be translated "all people." That is, God created all people. But in this context ta panta refers to the followers of Jesus Christ, referred to above as "us." at the beginning of the verse. Among those who follow Jesus, there is but one God, the Father.

and we in him
This is better translated as "and we exist for him." Not only is God the Father the source of all people, he also creates the followers of Jesus Christ to serve him. The followers of Jesus Christ are for the benefit of the Father.

one Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is "the Lord" because he is the realization of God's promise to dwell among his people.

by whom are all things
Even here ta panta should be translated something like "all of Jesus's followers." Paul means to say that Jesus Christ is the agency whereby his followers serve the father.

and we through him
Jesus' followers serve God the Father through is son Jesus Christ. He is the means whereby his followers serve God the Father.

Ephesians 3:9 tells us: “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

You seem to have inadvertently misquoted Ephesians 3:9, which in the NASB reads, "and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things."

Colossians 1:13-17 says: “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

the image of the invisible God
Here the apostle asserts that the beloved son answers to the purpose of God's plan to "dwell among us" as the image of the invisible God within a kingdom that stands apart from and distinct from the power of darkness. The kingdom of his beloved son is a kingdom of "saints in light." (verse 12)

the first born of all creation
Here the apostle asserts that the beloved son is a created person, and that this created person has "first born" status.

For by Him all things were created
The antecedent of "him" is "the invisible God" who created all things. Jesus Christ is the image of the one who created all things. He isn't the one who actually created all things.

Hebrews 1:2 &10 says, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom (or dia hos) also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

Paul sets out to explain to the Hebrews why it was fitting that a man should be the messiah, rather than an angel or a theophany. Speaking about the man Jesus, he says, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son . . ." And the term "son" comes from 1 Samuel 7, where God declares that he would consider a son of David to be a son of God.

whom He appointed heir of all things
God appointed the human man, Jesus, to be heir of all things. What is an "heir"? An heir is the beneficiary of an inheritance, which is passed down from Father to Son, in this case, from God the creator to the human man Jesus.

through whom also he made the world (lit. ages)
Here the preposition "dia" is in the genitive case suggesting causality. The question is, what kind of "cause" is indicated? Since Paul previously asserted that "the son" was appointed heir of all things, then it seems reasonable to hear Paul refer to "the son" as the "cause" or reason for the creation of the world. It isn't as if "the son" himself created the world, or that "the son" was the means whereby God created the world. Rather, according to Paul, the world was created for the son of God to inherit, which makes him the reason for why God created the world.

The Greek word "χαρακτὴρ" refers to the mark left behind after a stylus is pushed into soft clay. Just as the hole in the clay exactly interprets the stylus through the medium of the clay, the son exactly interprets the father through the medium of a human man.

 

[WPM]

Yet, for us
By contrast with those who believe in other gods, the followers of Jesus Christ believe there is but one God.

there is one God, the Father
Yes, Paul declares that "there is but one God, the Father," which stands in direct opposition against the false teachers who say that the one God is one essence in three people. Paul clearly declares that the one God IS the Father alone.

of whom are all things
Here Paul refers to "ta panta" in Greek, which is erroneously translated "all things". It could be translated "all people." That is, God created all people. But in this context ta panta refers to the followers of Jesus Christ, referred to above as "us." at the beginning of the verse. Among those who follow Jesus, there is but one God, the Father.

and we in him
This is better translated as "and we exist for him." Not only is God the Father the source of all people, he also creates the followers of Jesus Christ to serve him. The followers of Jesus Christ are for the benefit of the Father.

one Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is "the Lord" because he is the realization of God's promise to dwell among his people.

by whom are all things
Even here ta panta should be translated something like "all of Jesus's followers." Paul means to say that Jesus Christ is the agency whereby his followers serve the father.

and we through him
Jesus' followers serve God the Father through is son Jesus Christ. He is the means whereby his followers serve God the Father.

You seem to have inadvertently misquoted Ephesians 3:9, which in the NASB reads, "and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things."


the image of the invisible God
Here the apostle asserts that the beloved son answers to the purpose of God's plan to "dwell among us" as the image of the invisible God within a kingdom that stands apart from and distinct from the power of darkness. The kingdom of his beloved son is a kingdom of "saints in light." (verse 12)

the first born of all creation
Here the apostle asserts that the beloved son is a created person, and that this created person has "first born" status.

For by Him all things were created
The antecedent of "him" is "the invisible God" who created all things. Jesus Christ is the image of the one who created all things. He isn't the one who actually created all things.



Paul sets out to explain to the Hebrews why it was fitting that a man should be the messiah, rather than an angel or a theophany. Speaking about the man Jesus, he says, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son . . ." And the term "son" comes from 1 Samuel 7, where God declares that he would consider a son of David to be a son of God.

whom He appointed heir of all things
God appointed the human man, Jesus, to be heir of all things. What is an "heir"? An heir is the beneficiary of an inheritance, which is passed down from Father to Son, in this case, from God the creator to the human man Jesus.

through whom also he made the world (lit. ages)
Here the preposition "dia" is in the genitive case suggesting causality. The question is, what kind of "cause" is indicated? Since Paul previously asserted that "the son" was appointed heir of all things, then it seems reasonable to hear Paul refer to "the son" as the "cause" or reason for the creation of the world. It isn't as if "the son" himself created the world, or that "the son" was the means whereby God created the world. Rather, according to Paul, the world was created for the son of God to inherit, which makes him the reason for why God created the world.

The Greek word "χαρακτὴρ" refers to the mark left behind after a stylus is pushed into soft clay. Just as the hole in the clay exactly interprets the stylus through the medium of the clay, the son exactly interprets the father through the medium of a human man.

This is theological waffle. This is exactly what the cults do. They twist the biblical language to mean the opposite to what it reads. It is the inspired words that expose your teaching. You are fighting with the Word of God. It ably refutes your heresy.

 

[Truth7t7]

1.) Do you believe Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God?
No. In the beginning was the "word", (John 1:1) which is not a person. The term "word" refers to a promise, or a script. I believe the specific promise John had in mind was stated throughout the Bible in such places as Isaiah 9:6-7 concerning a son that would rule over Israel forever and Ezekiel 37:25-28.

2.) Do you believe Jesus Christ created all things?
No, God created all things. Genesis 1:1-11 Paul is telling us that God created all things "In view of his son Jesus Christ." Everything God created has a purpose and the overall purpose for the creation is for his son, Jesus Christ, to have dominion over the entire earth forever.

3.) Do you believe the Godhead was within Jesus Christ when he walked upon this earth in a human body as seen below?
There is no such thing as a "Godhead." There is God, and there is the son of God. Jesus Christ is the son of God; he is the image of God; whenever we see him, we see the Father. John 14:9

Thanks for the response, yes you deny that Jesus Christ is eternal and present in the beginning, also a denial Jesus is creator of all things, your views are way outside foundational Christian orthodoxy

You in my opinion would be in the cultic school of Jehovahs Witnesses concerning Jesus Christ, For this very reason I don't take your postings serious

Jesus Christ is eternal God Almighty, creator of all things, the Alpha/Omega

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

This is theological waffle. This is exactly what the cults do. They twist the biblical language to mean the opposite to what it reads. This exposes your heresy. It is the inspired words that expose your teaching. You are fighting with the Word of God. It ably refutes your heresy.

I agree 100%, the poster is way outside Christian orthodoxy, no question a cultic heresy

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is theological waffle. This is exactly what the cults do. They twist the biblical language to mean the opposite to what it reads. It is the inspired words that expose your teaching. You are fighting with the Word of God. It ably refutes your heresy.

I consider your insults to be a clear indication that you have no answer to what I said. And I am beginning to suspect that you have no reasons for what you believe. I gave you reasons and you didn't like the taste.