Abortion

[The Learner]

Jack does not pay attention to what IS said...and then drifts off onto trying to make a stance on what (erroneously) defines a person.

Per MY choice I agree with and support LIBERTY, FREEDOM, FREEWILL, same as Scripture teaches.

It is asinine to twist Liberty and Freewill into MEANING you agree with or support what every other person CHOOSES.

The heart of Liberalism, Communism, Marxism...is someone sitting in a “political power seat” Dictating WHAT a person MUST CHOOSE and CANNOT CHOOSE...which IS NO CHOICE, is not Liberty, is not Freedom, is not Freewill.

And again, a person is a living body WITH a soul in it.
A fetus does not have a soul in it.
A fetus is not a person.
Dead body’s do not have a soul in it.
Every pregnant female has an EXPECTATION the developing fetus to BeCOME a born baby....thus term for a pregnant female...Expecting.

Should not be mind-boggling!

What friend, is your definition of person?

 

[The Learner]

You forget the 24-7 VANITY that is promoted and a fierce competitive promoted “tool”. A pregnancy changes a females body.

I forget did you cover the fact that Adam had no living cells? before the breath of God?

 

[The Learner]

read to here good night all

 

[Taken]

So what, so does overweight. Please deal directly with the fact that Adam had no living cells before God breathed life into him and that which in the womb has living cells and recieves oxyigen and other stuff need for life though Mom's blood. Thanks, Danielk

Adam was FORM-ED. An ADULT Body. All the necessary parts...heart, blood, brain, bones, systems....without LIFE.

Once Adam Received Gods possessive soul (as Gods says; all souls are Mine), with Gods Breath....Adams body was MADE Alive....Adams LIFE (Blood) was MADE Alive.

Gods creations have their OWN reproducing SEEDS.
Man-kind does not reproduce ADULTS, (as was the case with Adams creation)
Trees do not reproduce MATURE Trees...and so forth.

The Process of “reproducing” FORM-ING, a Human is an “unseen” growing process, of the form-ING thing, relying (indirectly) on the Mothers LIFE (BLOOD).

Somewhat of a “simultaneous” event, Severing an individual from the “placenta” (the indirect connection to the mothers Life (blood), and receipt of Gods possessive soul with His breath.

 

[Taken]

I forget did you cover the fact that Adam had no living cells? before the breath of God?

Adam was FORM-ED...neither Dead or Alive.

 

[Taken]

What friend, is your definition of person?

An individual human being consisting of body and soul.

 

[Stan B]

comparing Adam in Genesis with a child in the womb makes no sense to me. Adam did not have any living cells before God breathed life into him. That which in the womb has living cells getting "oxigen" throught he Mother's blood.

If a Lady has a child she does not want there are many people who will adopt them. Thus the need for an abortion is mute.

If girl had pregnancy forced upon her by rape, incest, or just bad judgment, carrying that unwanted fetus, perhaps being infected with HIV to full term when the problem could simply be taken care of by taking a pill. would represent total insanity!!

And that would be in indirect opposition to God's way of doing things, where under Levitical Law, a woman becomes pregnant via an adulterous affair, the fetus must be aborted by the priest. Since God supports abortion, it would seem to me that anti-abortionists oppose God!
Notwithstanding, God creates spontaneous abortions/miscarriages on a regular basis.

I believe it is important to follow the Word of God rather than the demands of some demonic anti-God anti-abortion cult.

 

[Adam]

If girl had pregnancy forced upon her by rape, incest, or just bad judgment, carrying that unwanted fetus, perhaps being infected with HIV to full term when the problem could simply be taken care of by taking a pill. would represent total insanity!!

The Bible says not to kill. The Bible says not to cast out the weak. The Bible says every human was formed by God and is to be treated as the face of God.

Any person could just end their mortal toils by taking a cyanide pill - not doing it would be total insanity!! Why struggle on this earth when we can all have an easy way out?

And that would be in indirect opposition to God's way of doing things, where under Levitical Law, a woman becomes pregnant via an adulterous affair, the fetus must be aborted by the priest. Since God supports abortion, it would seem to me that anti-abortionists oppose God!
Notwithstanding, God creates spontaneous abortions/miscarriages on a regular basis.

There is no such law

I believe it is important to follow the Word of God rather than the demands of some demonic anti-God anti-abortion cult.

It's demonic to not want to kill babies? This sounds like a really bad attempt to turn the tables. It is not going to work.

 

[Stan B]

In case I forgot the link https://jag.journalagent.com/ejm/pdfs/EJM_25_3_477_483.pdf

"

Results:​

The mean (SD) of post-traumatic stress scores was 83.87 (18.35) and 77.40 (9.88) in spontaneous abortion, 82.28 (13.27) and 75.71 (14.73) in FMC permitted abortions, and 86.66 (10.10) and 74.98 (12.99) in induced abortions immediately and 1 month after abortion, respectively. Stress was reduced in the three groups of mothers, after one month of severe value. The score for frequency of stress was 3.10% in FMC-permitted abortions and 5.10% in induced abortions; moreover, no stress was observed in the spontaneous abortion cases.

Conclusions:​

Stress was gradually reduced over time. The level of PTSD was lower after 1 month in women who had experienced spontaneous abortion. Given that 1 month after abortion, women are still often moderately stressed, follow-up care, and appropriate counseling for these women are necessary."

The Severity of Post-abortion Stress in Spontaneous, Induced and Forensic Medical Center Permitted Abortion in Shiraz, Iran, in 2018

Abortion and loss of pregnancy in the first trimester may affect maternal mortality and morbidity. This study aimed to determine the severity of post-abortion stress in spontaneous abortion, induced abortion, and Forensic Medical Center (FMC) referral ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A lot of that stress is probably caused by a guilt trip acquired from the anti-abortion activists.

 

[Adam]

A lot of that stress is probably caused by a guilt trip acquired from the anti-abortion activists.

Can a person be made to feel guilt when they are innocent? If I were accused of a murder I didn't do, even if I were wrongly thrown in prison, I would not be ashamed. However, the law of God is written into the heart, and people have an instinctive sense of good and evil.

Romans 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

I have never met a woman who got an abortion and wasn't still upset about it years - or even decades - later. It is something that stays with them forever and never stops haunting them.

 

[Stan B]

The Bible says not to kill.

You probably have the wrong forum. This one is not about killing, it is about non-living fetuses which cannot be "killed" because they have never been alive.

Of course if you can provide Scripture to refute that, i.e that someone becomes a "living being" before God breathes into them the Breath of Life, as declared by Scripture, then let's hear it. It would also prove all the Scriptures say otherwise to be lies.

 

[Taken]

The Bible says not to kill.

Not true.
There were times God SAID TO KILL.
God said thou shalt not MURDER.

MURDER is unJUST killing.

The Bible says not to cast out the weak. The Bible says every human was formed by God ...

Agree. Form-ED, over a 9 month process of Form-ING.

and is to be treated as the face of God.

Not familiar with that. Do you have a Scriptural reference?

Any person could just end their mortal toils by taking a cyanide pill - not doing it would be total insanity!! Why struggle on this earth when we can all have an easy way out?

Abortion is not the intent to kill a human life, but stop the progress of a developing life, expected to be a born human life.

It's demonic to not want to kill babies? This sounds like a really bad attempt to turn the tables. It is not going to work.

The killing of a baby, is killing a born person.

 

[Taken]

I have never met a woman who got an abortion and wasn't still upset about it years - or even decades - later. It is something that stays with them forever and never stops haunting them.

That is likely True for many women.

 

[Stan B]

What friend, is your definition of person?

Probably the same as everyone who speaks English: a human being.

 

[Adam]

You probably have the wrong forum. This one is not about killing, it is about non-living fetuses which cannot be "killed" because they have never been alive

So who was kicking in my wife's womb? I still haven't heard an answer to this.

Not familiar with that. Do you have a Scriptural reference?

Genesis 9:6
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Matthew 25
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Abortion is not the intent to kill a human life, but stop the progress of a developing life, expected to be a born human life.

Psalm 139
13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.

So what are you trying to accomplish then by undoing God's work?

And for that matter, what makes you think that a gestating baby is not alive? There are ample studies that show that babies have consciousness in the womb, they react to noise, react to movement, engage in their own movements, react to pain, have a heartbeat, have cycles of activity, make facial expressions, and heck, even have favorite foods based on what the mother eats. Who is causing all of this then if the baby is dead until its birth? Do you not realize that the birth is just the event by which the baby leaves the uterus? The birth is not what causes the baby to come into existence, it is only the act of transporting what is already there from one location to another.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You probably have the wrong forum. This one is not about killing, it is about non-living fetuses which cannot be "killed" because they have never been alive.

Of course if you can provide Scripture to refute that, i.e that someone becomes a "living being" before God breathes into them the Breath of Life, as declared by Scripture, then let's hear it. It would also prove all the Scriptures say otherwise to be lies.

And I already PROVED to you that an unborn child is ALIVE - both physically and spiritually.
I refer you to my post #365, which you you so cowardly ignored . . .

And here’s one more nail in the coffin of your “oxygen” argument . . .

Because you obviously don't own one - go to the store, and in the Book section, they usualt stock Bibles. Purchase one, then turn to 2 Timothy.

Here, we read us the following:
2 Tim. 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

However – John 3:24 tells us that God is SPIRIT.
And as SPIRIT and as CREATOR – God doesn’t breathe oxygen – He breathes LIFE (John 6:68, Phil. 2:16, Heb. 4:12).

Ergo, a baby in the womb has been given the Breath of Life.

Jeremiah 1:5
“BEFORE I FORMED YOU IN THE WOMB I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Isaiah 49:1
Listen to me, O coastlands, and give attention, you peoples from afar. The Lord called me FROM THE WOMB, from the body of my mother he named my name.

Psalm 139:13 s
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB.

No "Oxygen" is referenced. Only LIFE.

Finally - EVERY person who ever lived and died - dies from the SAME cause: Cardiac Arrest.
They died when their heart stopped functioning - NOT when they stopped breathing.

 

[Stan B]

So who was kicking in my wife's womb? I still haven't heard an answer to this.

I have already answered that. The one kicking inside you wife's womb, was your wife. A fetus is just part of the woman's body until the umblical cord is severed an it can breath on it's own, So it was the reaction of the autonomic nervous system going into spasms; a knee jerk reaction. That happens before a fetus ever has a brain.

 

[Stan B]

And I already PROVED to you that an unborn child is ALIVE - both physically and spiritually.
I refer you to my post #365, which you you so cowardly ignored . . .

And here’s one more nail in the coffin of your “oxygen” argument . . .

Because you obviously don't own one - go to the store, and in the Book section, they usualt stock Bibles. Purchase one, then turn to 2 Timothy.

Here, we read us the following:
2 Tim. 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

However – John 3:24 tells us that God is SPIRIT.
And as SPIRIT and as CREATOR – God doesn’t breathe oxygen – He breathes LIFE (John 6:68, Phil. 2:16, Heb. 4:12).

Ergo, a baby in the womb has been given the Breath of Life.

Jeremiah 1:5
“BEFORE I FORMED YOU IN THE WOMB I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Isaiah 49:1
Listen to me, O coastlands, and give attention, you peoples from afar. The Lord called me FROM THE WOMB, from the body of my mother he named my name.

Psalm 139:13 s
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB.

No "Oxygen" is referenced. Only LIFE.

Finally - EVERY person who ever lived and died - dies from the SAME cause: Cardiac Arrest.
They died when their heart stopped functioning - NOT when they stopped breathing.

You keep repeating that same ole' unrelated junk over and over. God told us how life starts:

"Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being."

That's the way we are ALL created. We are ALL formed from dirt, and then we receive life when God breathes into our nostrils the Breath of Life.

I don't find that at all difficult to understand.

 

[Taken]

So who was kicking in my wife's womb? I still haven't heard an answer to this.

A Form-ING man-Kind of creature

Genesis 9:6
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Matthew 25
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Psalm 139
13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.

So what are you trying to accomplish then by undoing God's work?

Your “charge” is ludicrous. I was quite clear God Forms the body.

And for that matter, what makes you think that a gestating baby is not alive?

What makes YOU think, I think that? I said no such thing!

There are ample studies that show that babies have consciousness in the womb, they react to noise, react to movement, engage in their own movements, react to pain, have a heartbeat, have cycles of activity, make facial expressions, and heck, even have favorite foods based on what the mother eats. Who is causing all of this then if the baby is dead until its birth?

Not once did I say the fetus was dead until it’s birth.
It is NOT an individual until it is severed from it’s Dependency on it’s mothers LIFE (BLOOD).

IN the womb, IN the placenta (a watery sac), is the perform-ing of PRO-CREATION, from a mans seed having fertilized a females seed. A process, of God Form-ing the Body.

Fetus’
Ears, do not hear
Nose, does not smell
Eyes, do not see
Mouth, does not utter sounds
Flesh, does not feel touch

UNTIL it is born and receives a soul that (Belongs to God) filled with God Breath of Life that (Belongs to God),
GODS MAKING added to the PRO-CREATION
....then does it, hear, smell, see, utter sound, feel touch.........and those senses continue AFTER the body dies and that living soul DEPARTS the dead body.

CREATED......and ......MADE....two different things.

Do you not realize that the birth is just the event by which the baby leaves the uterus?

No. The BIRTH, is the Marvelous Works of Gods CREATING and MAKING.

The birth is not what causes the baby to come into existence, it is only the act of transporting what is already there from one location to another.

The CREATION, is one thing. The Form-ING.
The MAKING, is another thing. The Causing of form-ED “parts” to Have specific FUNCTIONS....

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created “and” made.

Gen 2:
[7] And the LORD God form-ED man of the dust of the ground,
CREATED ^

and .... THEN

breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
MADE ^

 

[Adam]

"I have already answered that. The one kicking inside you wife's womb, was your wife."

The baby is separated from the mother by a placenta. The baby has its own nervous system which is not part of the mother's nervous system. The mother does not have any conscious or unconscious control of the gestating baby, it is not a part of her nervous system.

That's the way we are ALL created. We are ALL formed from dirt

Even if Genesis were literal, it talks about a specific individual who was the first of his kind and was not born naturally. For that matter, women were made out of his ribs. Are women made entirely out of rib bones? Maybe women aren't alive until they get the rib bone from their husband?

Fetus’
Ears, do not hear
Nose, does not smell
Eyes, do not see
Mouth, does not utter sounds
Flesh, does not feel touch

On the contrary, they do, they react to light, they react to movement, they react to invasions in the womb (like a needle that is inserted), they do indeed have senses in the womb.