What does it mean to be born again?

[stunnedbygrace]

It's always possible I misunderstood, something. If so why don't you just attempt to clarify instead of making derogatory assumptions. What I seem to see with Episkopos is that he often argues from one side of an equation instead of reconciling both sides. We need the whole counsel of God, not just one side or the other of things which only appear to be contradictory to the carnal mind, but can and need to be reconciled by the Holy Spirit. So I just reminded you both of another side of the equation, and do with it what you will.

If something has been repeated and repeated, and by more than one person, in many different ways, yet someone has not heard or comprehended what was said, it is not a “derogatory assumption” to think they can’t hear you.

 

[Episkopos]

Incorrect

We are not here to CONVICT the Jews, or anyone, matter of fact.
Stay on the subject under discussion, whatever that is.

J.

This thread is called...What does it mean to be born again? Did you listen to the video? Did you appreciate my analysis of the current situation we find ourselves in the church at this time? I mean, placing too much emphasis on how we begin a race and not enough on how we are to conduct ourselves therein.

If you need more specifics don't be shy to ask.

I hope this helps you

 

[Lizbeth]

ahhhhh, honest objectivity and accountability! Could it be that our Laodicean dispositions are the result of the lack of?

That is your assumption. You (like Episkopos) are assuming that anyone who holds to a doctrine of imputed righteousness must by definition be ignoring the believer's responsibility under the new covenant, but that is not the case. And assuming that this doctrine therefore must be the cause of it. But remember in the parable of the talents, that one servant who was given one talent to invest.....he truly was given a talent but the fault was on him for not investing it. It wasn't the fault of the talent. It's on us what we do or don't do with the gift we have been given, and the attitude we hold to. Whether we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling and being humble and grateful for the gift or whether we are just sitting on our laurels, being smug and taking salvation for granted.

I believe it simply boils down to this: the Shepherd of our souls is leading us. We need to be following Him where/how He is leading and where/how He is leading us is to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We are to obey His leading and say not my will but thine be done, without violating His righteousness when He leads us through various trials and temptations. We are HIS workmanship, but only if we are allowing Him and obeying Him as He works or attempts to work on us. Many are not following Him, the cloud and pillar of fire, but they are remaining camped out basking on the shore of the Red Sea instead pulling up stakes and moving on and following...going on to perfection.

So that is how I see this and I believe I'm in company with others here who see it much the same. So I would ask that you all please stop making assumptions about those who defend the doctrine of imputed righteousness. Unfortunately that is not convenient for those who want to blame the doctrine for being the cause of people being like the Laodiceans, when really the cause is the neglect of all those other teachings that speak of our responsibilities, as well as their own hearts leading them astray. It's not the fault of the gift.

 

[Lizbeth]

Do not hold your faith in Jesus with an attitude of personal favoritism/partiality/respect of some persons over some other persons. Because there is no partiality with God and it is not hearers of the law who are righteous but doers of the law. Maintain the principles you were taught without bias or esteem of persons, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality but in every nation the one who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him.

Of course but that does not negate my point. This is talking about believers from all nations (Gentiles) as opposed to only Israel. The Lord not showing partiality to Israel over the nations. The gospel is for all who believe it and obey it.

 

[Episkopos]

That is your assumption. You (like Episkopos) are assuming that anyone who holds to a doctrine of imputed righteousness must by definition be ignoring the believer's responsibility under the new covenant, but that is not the case.

That is not so. What is being peddled as doctrine is the idea that God imputed HIS OWN righteousness onto Abraham...rather than Abraham's. We are justified by God by faith and works. But no one is to claim that justification for oneself. When justification is used by the uncrucified person...it becomes filthy rags...because it is soiled by the part of us that is meant to be crucified...not lifted up. Can you see the distinction?

And assuming that this doctrine therefore must be the cause of it. But remember in the parable of the talents, that one servant who was given one talent to invest.....he truly was given a talent but the fault was on him for not investing it. It wasn't the fault of the talent. It's on us what we do or don't do with the gift we have been given, and the attitude we hold to. Whether we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling and being humble and grateful for the gift or whether we are just sitting on our laurels, being smug and taking salvation for granted.

Or...by not going to God to have the talent bear fruit. An eternal fruit is only possible by a heavenly empowerment. Many will claim that a sample of grace is enough to do this. But the sample is only meant to motivate us to SEEK GOD...for an intimate union with Him. Those who reject that further seeking, asking, and knocking, try to produce an eternal fruit on their own...mistaking a human righteousness attempt for sanctification. It's an error of scale.

I believe it simply boils down to this: the Shepherd of our souls is leading us. We need to be following Him where/how He is leading and where/how He is leading us is to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We are to obey His leading and say not my will but thine be done, without violating His righteousness when He leads us through various trials and temptations. We are HIS workmanship, but only if we are allowing Him and obeying Him as He works or attempts to work on us. Many are not following Him, the cloud and pillar of fire, but they are remaining camped out basking on the shore of the Red Sea instead pulling up stakes and moving on and following...going on to perfection.

Being led of the Spirit is a good thing. But we are called to a higher place than that...who have been truly born of the Spirit. We are called to go to the throne of grace. That takes REAL faith. So that's why people will rail against it.

So that is how I see this and I believe I'm in company with others here who see it much the same. So I would ask that you all please stop making assumptions about those who defend the doctrine of imputed righteousness.

Again this is not about imputing righteousness where it is deserving...according to the truth..according to God. This is about the error of self-imputation for one's beliefs by esteeming that their own faith is anything like Abraham's.

Unfortunately that is not convenient for those who want to blame the doctrine for being the cause of people being like the Laodiceans, when really the cause is the neglect of all those other teachings that speak of our responsibilities, as well as their own hearts leading them astray. It's not the fault of the gift.

The fault of the Laodiceans was in their false imputation of the riches in Christ on themselves. We see happening in our time in a major way. Hence the reason for the warning of Jesus...to THIS generation. But few are listening.

The wise will respond to the Lord saying... Lord, is it I?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Of course but that does not negate my point. This is talking about believers from all nations (Gentiles) as opposed to only Israel. The Lord not showing partiality to Israel over the nations. The gospel is for all who believe it and obey it.

I think you need to go back and read the verses (my paraphrase to save the time of looking each one up) and meditate on them. Because you follow doctrines of showing partiality to yourself. And the doctrines of partiality to self make men call darkness light.

 

[Episkopos]

Thanks for your response. But, the bible says, "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated."

For those who understand the ways of God...Jacob is the inner man and Esau...the twin...is the outer man.

And God chastises who He loves as sons.

Yes.

Believers are loved as sons, unbelievers are not. T

Not all believers. This is where you are making a blanket dogmatic statement that shows a lack of looking at the equation. Only half of believers are taken...the other half rejected. Only a small remnant are saints. Then there are the righteous (who don't see themselves as righteous because of humility and godly fear)...then there are those who are rejected (who will be in shock since they considered themselves to be righteous)

here is partiality,

No partiality with God. We reap as WE sow.

but it is not on the same level as humans being respecters of persons....God's ways are higher than ours. For believers the Lord dealing with our flesh works for our good,

If we listen, yes.

for unbelievers (those who are foreknown by God to never be saved) it is working for sheer punishment and wrath. God willing to make His wrath known on the vessels fitted for destruction.

Actually the wrath of God is not on unbelievers but on those who profane His holy name. Only believers can do that. You have to look deeper than just "saved/ not-saved" to get at the truth.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Of course but that does not negate my point.

The entire GOSPEL negates the point you were trying to make. You were saying, basically, thatGod loves you as a daughter and does not love unbelievers as a daughter. But God loves the whole world and your statement is not the right spirit.
You can be technically correct but of the wrong kind of spirit.

 

[Lizbeth]

Ah! The doctrine of election--vehemently opposed by Armenians yet scripturally sound and biblical, feisty sister, feisty.[in a dunamis sense]

Brother i think you have a gift of encouraging others, and may the Lord bless your generous heart.

I'm not able to keep up with the conversation, or respond to everyone's replies right now, it's moving too fast for me, and also I need to get on with some practical things so can only pop in now and then when I can. Please don't anyone think I'm ignoring or evading them, just getting overwhelmed with more than I can handle.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Encouraging and propping up the flesh is the way of the world. And it makes carnal Christian’s mad when mature believers who have at least begun to understand picking up their cross won’t encourage and support and confirm their flesh. They feel it is a mature believer being carnal and mean when they won’t coddle or help them in self affirmation. They feel humiliated, downcast and mocked if others don’t take their flesh seriously.

 

[Johann]

I'm advocating a gospel according to power....not dogma. Anyone can pick up a bible, read something, and then be encouraged to claim it for oneself....by "beliefs" . But faith is an altogether different thing. One doesn't move a mountain by reading about it.

I'm not able to keep up with the conversation, or respond to everyone's replies right now, it's moving too fast for me, and also I need to get on with some practical things so can only pop in now and then when I can. Please don't anyone think I'm ignoring or evading them, just getting overwhelmed with more than I can handle.

Shalom to you and family sister.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

Encouraging and propping up the flesh is the way of the world. And it makes carnal Christian’s mad when mature believers who have at least begun to understand picking up their cross won’t encourage and support and confirm their flesh. They feel it is a mature believer being carnal and mean when they won’t coddle or help them in self affirmation.

Amen. The way of God in Christ appears upside down to carnal reasoning. Religion is diametrically opposed to the kingdom of God.

 

[Johann]

Amen. The way of God in Christ appears upside down to carnal reasoning. Religion is diametrically opposed to the kingdom of God.

Is strengthening each other also forbidden in your gospel?

strengthening: Act_14:22, Act_15:32, Act_15:41, Act_16:40; Deu_3:28; Ezr_1:6; Isa_35:3-4; Dan_11:1; Luk_22:32, Luk_22:43; 1Th_3:2, 1Th_4:18, 1Th_5:14; Heb_12:12-13

I concur, your religion is diametrically opposed to the gospel of Christ and Paul.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Amen. The way of God in Christ appears upside down to carnal reasoning. Religion is diametrically opposed to the kingdom of God.

I think I do not have enough shrewdness on the matter and am not able to see the full picture as immediately as you. Until I see pouting pride and moroseness turn to “I’m going to kill that person so they will never be able to speak again“ - until that emerges like a shark fin breaking the surface, I guess I’m like a dumb tourist on vacation thinking it would be okay to feed the bison...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Is strengthening each other also forbidden in your gospel?

Paying attention to what is said might help. Strengthening of the flesh is deadly so it’s not loving a brother to be complicit or help in it.

 

[Johann]

Is strengthening each other also forbidden in your gospel?

strengthening: Act_14:22, Act_15:32, Act_15:41, Act_16:40; Deu_3:28; Ezr_1:6; Isa_35:3-4; Dan_11:1; Luk_22:32, Luk_22:43; 1Th_3:2, 1Th_4:18, 1Th_5:14; Heb_12:12-13

I concur, your religion is diametrically opposed to the gospel of Christ and Paul.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/104145810127231337/

 

[stunnedbygrace]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/104145810127231337/

A man has not moved from self if he is prideful and admires his intellect (or lack thereof) and loves his opinions.

 

[Johann]

Paying attention to what is said might help. Strengthening of the flesh is deadly so it’s not loving a brother to be complicit or help in it.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/201465783322008572/

Wise words

 

[stunnedbygrace]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/201465783322008572/

Wise words

Yes, wise words. I’ve learned far more from men who have been with God than I could ever learn from theologians!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I concur, your religion is diametrically opposed to the gospel of Christ and Paul.

Once again, a man not agreeing with your cut and pastes of other men’s interpretations of scripture is not opposing the gospel. It’s opposing the opinions and proclamations and leaven of men that you have adopted and swallowed.