RLT63
Well-Known Member
My people have been persecuted too, going all the way back to the Apostles. Many Jews put their faith in Jesus, they were part of the first Church. All the Apostles were Jewish.
The answer of hell and its origins
- Thread starter face2face
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Dear face2face,
You said:
I don't believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire; I believe we go to the grave upon death, either permanently, or as the Apostles teach, a sleep awaiting the resurrection. For me this subject is extremely clear and because the traditional view lacks all Scriptural support, I am able to rest easy in the divine hope as recorded in the Bible.
I completely agree with your statement above. It gives me joy to hear that someone else on the forum understands the truth of Christ.
Can you agree with what I present below?
Here is what I have been shown from scripture:
SPIRIT + BODY = A LIVNG SOUL
The "soul" is our individual consciousness. When the body dies, so does the soul. At that point, we enter into the state of death until the bodily resurrection from the grave occurs. That resurrection is still yet future.
For those who remain "lost" upon their resurrection, Christ will begin their judgment. This is "symbolized" by the person being cast into the Lake of Fire". The LOF is not literal fire.
Then, after the "lost" have "paid the last penny" (Luke 12:59), He will have mercy upon them.
These two verses represent this time of mercy:
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
This call presented above will go out to the "lost" at the end of the final age.
Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits (the Elect) of thy labors, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering (the rest of mankind), which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labors out of the field.
Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
This time of "ingathering" which occurs at the "end of the year" is the Feast of Tabernacles. The Elect, as First Fruits, were harvested earlier (this present age) and the rest of mankind will be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of the year when the full harvest is made.
So why are the Elect harvested early?
They will reign with Christ as "kings and priests" (Rev 5:10) in the final age over the "lost".
Their purpose: to bring in the harvest of mankind:
Luke 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest.
The Elect are the "few" (Mat 22:14) who were chosen from the foundation of the world. They were chosen to be Christ's laborers to bring in the full harvest of mankind.
When the Lord and His "Christ" (the Elect, Acts 4:26, Rev 11:15) have completed their work, all mankind will be saved:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
One last point: the purpose of the Lake of Fire (Christ's judgment) is stated in the verses below:
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Amos 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Everything that Christ does in this creation is because of His great love for mankind. Because all mankind is sinful and evil, His love demands that He make us into a new creation (new vessel, child of God) which is sinless and righteous. Christ does this by giving mankind a new spiritual nature (Holy Spirit). Then by His judgment, He destroys the old carnal spiritual nature and teaches us His righteousness. This process is called "conversion".
Christ loves His enemies by doing good them. He does good to them by converting all mankind.
Mankind, who is evil, does not understand the true purpose of judgment:
Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
However, Christ does understand it and He will not "pervert" it as mankind does:
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
Joe
I wondered if you saw the sad news about the church shooting in Hamburg, Germany.
Seven people were killed (presumably including the gunman) in a church used by JW's.
The gunman was a former member of the group.
Hamburg shooting: Seven killed in attack on Jehovah's Witness hall
An unborn baby was among those killed by the gunman, who was a former member of the religious group.
www.bbc.com
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes, my brotherhood are in mourning and praying for the families of those who died and also those injured or traumatised by the tragedy. These last days are to be filled with trouble, so nothing is unexpected at this time. We rely on God to strengthen us to endure whatever the devil wants to throw at us.I wondered if you saw the sad news about the church shooting in Hamburg, Germany.
Seven people were killed (presumably including the gunman) in a church used by JW's.
The gunman was a former member of the group.
Hamburg shooting: Seven killed in attack on Jehovah's Witness hall
An unborn baby was among those killed by the gunman, who was a former member of the religious group.
ETA....from our website....
“On March 9, 2023, a shooter attacked the Hamburg-Winterhude Kingdom Hall after the midweek meeting had concluded. Sadly, four brothers, two sisters, and a sister’s unborn child were killed in this shooting. Several other brothers and sisters were injured. Local elders are providing spiritual comfort to the family members and friends of those affected. We appreciate the courageous help provided by the police and emergency services. Our prayers are with all those affected by the attack. We are confident that Jehovah, the God of peace, will continue to be a refuge and strength in this time of distress.—Psalm 9:9; 46:1; Philippians 4:9.”
Last edited:
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I could have said that too....I am talking about now....how many of the members of your church are in prison because they speak about the Bible to others? How many go to prison because they refuse to fight in wars when conscripted into their nation’s army? How many of your meeting places have been raided by police and member arrested just for meeting together for worship?
I have a feeling that you have no idea how persecuted JW’s are in the world....right now.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Worldwide it’s difficult to say. In some countries they have been murdered
RLT63
Well-Known Member
I’m sorry to hear about this. I hope this is an isolated incident.Yes, my brotherhood are in mourning and praying for the families of those who died and also those injured or traumatised by the tragedy. These last days are to be filled with trouble, so nothing is unexpected at this time. We rely on God to strengthen us to endure whatever the devil wants to throw at us.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You mean you don’t know?
Who are we talking about here? Some random Christians? Or those specifically targeted? When something happens to our brothers we are notified, so that we can pray for them....we are a global family so what happens in other parts of the world to our brothers and sisters is felt by the whole brotherhood.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Good for you. One big happy familyYou mean you don’t know?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
In many parts of the world it is not isolated. Russia is at the forefront right now at the urging of the Russian Orthodox church. Our brothers are arrested on trumped up charges and held in prison. Their mock trials are a sham and many brothers have reported beatings and torture.
According to them we are “extremists” and even our Bible is banned.....there are no more peaceful Christians on the planet than JW’s, who will not take up arms under any circumstances....we are no threat except that they cannot control us. We refuse to fight in their wars and the only reason you will find us in prison is the same as the apostles.....for standing up for our right to worship God as we see fit. Freedom of religion is in the Russian constitution, but all the authorities are told to turn a blind eye.
We try to be....that is what Christians are supposed to be....united in every way.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
I believe in the freedom to choose your own religion and though I disagree with you I would fight for your right to choose. What you are describing is horrendous and I would never support something like that. I don’t like denigrating someone else’s religion but when you position yourself and your beliefs as the only ones that are right and denigrate everyone else you make yourself a target.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It made Jesus and his disciples a target. Jesus exposed the Jewish leaders for what they were, and they hated him for it. (Matt 23) He didn’t pull any punches, but told them what they did not want to hear.
There is no similarity between the “wheat and the weeds” in this “time of the harvest”. History is repeating but no one in Christendom seems to notice....
There is only one truth...not many versions of it all standing under one umbrella.
In all the court cases Jehovah’s Witnesses have won for freedom of worship in many nations, others have benefitted from the legislation. God gives everyone the right to choose which god will receive their worship. There are only two, and one is a clever deceiver......whatever worship is rejected by the true God, goes to the pretender by default. We won’t even know that we have participated in false worship, until the judgment because God will not interfere with our choices. We will all be caught in the act of being our true selves.
Last edited:
Have they said any more about his grievance?
I read that he had left the JW church group and was making accusations against them of fraud to police.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It’s pointless reading MSM reports as they are never accurate. We cannot make assessments based on hearsay. If he was an “ex” then there are serious reasons for that. No charges can be brought against anyone without proof. Whatever “accusations” he may have been making, we can be sure that a full investigation will be carried out. Wounded pride does terrible things to some people. We may never hear the real story.....he took his own life apparently, so he carried out his own execution and those many lives he took with him will be resurrected in the new world to come, but perhaps he will not. Jehovah is his judge and Jesus is his appointed King who will carry out his Father’s will.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
I hate to tell you but y’all are not Jesus and the disciples
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
"I never said we were, but I do know what Jesus said to those who were his disciples.....the ones "doing the will of his Father".
John 15:18-21...
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me."
If the cap fits.....ya know. You worship a different God to the one we do. I don't believe that anyone in Christendom really knows the God they think they worship......his name is Jesus, and he's a bit of a mystery that no one can explain.....but my God is also Jesus' God.....YHWH....Yahweh...Jehovah. He is still Jesus' God even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)
Jesus will tell us his decision....not you or me....that means that no one will be prepared for the judgment. We live in hope, but according to Jesus, that hope will be shattered for the majority. (Matt 7:13-14)
RLT63
Well-Known Member
YHWH is my God and John 1 tells us who Jesus is. You don’t know as much about me as you think you do. Doesn’t matter though since I won’t join your gang there’s no hope for me
Last edited:
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If Jesus is your god then it isn't YHWH that you worship......that is the name of the God Jesus worshipped...and still does.
John 1 does tell us who Jesus is....."ho logos....but he is not "ho theos". A little glance at the Greek will tell you.
I don't have a "gang"...I have a global brotherhood who are united like no other. I chose them because their teachings align with scripture like no others do. I love Bible study because of them. They taught me how to study God's word honestly and without unexplainable contradictions. They showed me the big picture, and how to fit in all the pieces....which they do seamlessly.
Your choices are yours to make RLT, just as mine are. We will both stand before the same judge....one that does not accept excuses for failing to "do the will of the Father". (Matt 7:21-23)
First you have to know what the will of the Father is......then you have to see what the Kingdom is, and how it "comes"....and why it was brought into existence in the first place....to understand why Jesus had to die so that we might not have to one day.....we are still dying now even though Jesus sacrificed his life almost 2,000 years ago.....do you have those answers RLT.....I needed to find them....and I did.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
If John 1 says the word was a god doesn’t that make 2 Gods? A God and a god? This makes Jesus a lesser god. I only have one God.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Before this thread gets locked up, for the mantra "Jesus is NOT God," just this last word?:
Yes, there is Only ONE God, The Righteous Judge, Before Whom we will all stand:
1) "ALL Judgment Has Been Committed To The SON" (John 5:22-23)
2) Grace believers [alive] At The Judgment Seat Of Christ (God) (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)
3) Unbelievers [ dead ] at The Great White Throne Judgment:
"And I saw a Great White Throne, and Him That Sat On It, from Whose
Face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place
for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before...
...God (The LORD Jesus); and the books were opened: and another book was
opened, Which Is [ The Book ] Of Life: and the dead were Judged out of those
things which were written in the books, according to their works...
...And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered
up the dead which were in them: and they were Judged every man according
to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is The
Second Death. And whosoever was NOT found Written In The Book Of Life
Was Cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:11-15 KJB)
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)! ← Approved Unto God...
Last edited:
Similar threads
