Salvation really?

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Rach1370

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I teach salvation by grace alone, but once saved by grace alone a truly born again Christian will uphold the law and not willfully break it like you. Its not Gods will anyone wilfully break His 10 Commandments.

Hey, can I just ask a quick, clarifying question??
You say you teach salvation by grace alone, but it also seems that you are saying that that salvation can be lost after that. Is this true? Ta.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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Hey, can I just ask a quick, clarifying question??
You say you teach salvation by grace alone, but it also seems that you are saying that that salvation can be lost after that. Is this true? Ta.

I am happy to answer your question Rach. I teach salvation and justification and sanctification by faith alone. Once a person is truly and sincerely and genuinely saved and born again of the Holy Spirit, they have eternal life and cannot be lost. Once a person is truly and sincerely and genuinely saved and born again of the Holy Spirit, God's Law is written on their heart and nobody can snatch them out Jesus' hands, and they are securely saved forever and will never renounce Christ. They will obey God and walk in obedience AS A RESULT of being saved.

HOWEVER, many claim to be Christian, but in truth and reality they have never been truly and sincerely and genuinely saved and born again of the Holy Spirit. They continue to sin and believe they are free to do so, in fact, they do not hate their sinning, they are apathetic towards it and believe and teach that they are free to break God's Law and 10 Commandments.

I am not legalistic at all, if you had have sought clarity from me regarding that, you would know that. I teach salvation by faith and grace alone, justification by faith alone, but once saved by grace, we uphold the law, and obey God's Commandments because we are already saved and because we love Jesus.

Keeping the 10 commandments in an attempt to earn Salvation will result only in sorrow and despair. But the person who has experienced the gift of Salvation delights in walking the path of obedience in God's law.

Any person who willfully breaks Gods Commandments, has NO TRUTH and there is no light in them! [1John 2:4]

And in John 14:15 it says those who love Jesus will keep His Commandments.

1 John 5:3. Not only is the law not grievous for the Spirit-filled child of God, but obedience becomes a joyful possibility. The psalmist wrote, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalms 40:8.

Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

That's the difference between the sincere and fake Christian, by their obedience or lack off, by their fruit or lack off.

God bless.
 

Rach1370

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I am happy to answer your question Rach. I teach salvation and justification and sanctification by faith alone. Once a person is truly and sincerely and genuinely saved and born again of the Holy Spirit, they have eternal life and cannot be lost. Once a person is truly and sincerely and genuinely saved and born again of the Holy Spirit, God's Law is written on their heart and nobody can snatch them out Jesus' hands, and they are securely saved forever and will never renounce Christ. They will obey God and walk in obedience AS A RESULT of being saved.

HOWEVER, many claim to be Christian, but in truth and reality they have never been truly and sincerely and genuinely saved and born again of the Holy Spirit. They continue to sin and believe they are free to do so, in fact, they do not hate their sinning, they are apathetic towards it and believe and teach that they are free to break God's Law and 10 Commandments.

I am not legalistic at all, if you had have sought clarity from me regarding that, you would know that. I teach salvation by faith and grace alone, justification by faith alone, but once saved by grace, we uphold the law, and obey God's Commandments because we are already saved and because we love Jesus.

Keeping the 10 commandments in an attempt to earn Salvation will result only in sorrow and despair. But the person who has experienced the gift of Salvation delights in walking the path of obedience in God's law.

Any person who willfully breaks Gods Commandments, has NO TRUTH and there is no light in them! [1John 2:4]

And in John 14:15 it says those who love Jesus will keep His Commandments.

1 John 5:3. Not only is the law not grievous for the Spirit-filled child of God, but obedience becomes a joyful possibility. The psalmist wrote, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalms 40:8.

Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

That's the difference between the sincere and fake Christian, by their obedience or lack off, by their fruit or lack off.

God bless.

Thankyou. However, I have trouble following you...you seem to declare a seemingly genuine belief in faith by grace alone, etc, but then you declare that people 'worshipping on Sunday' are deliberately breaking God's laws, and are therefore NOT saved. Like a day is more powerful than grace and the Spirit.
To that I have a few things to say: Jesus said that ALL the law is fulfilled in us if we love God and others. I see no wiggle room in that for you to declare me unsaved. Second, it is beyond presumptuous for you to claim you have any idea of my salvation, on my relationship and devotion to Jesus, just because I attend Church on the day it's actually on! Presumably you would prefer me to attend anything...at all, on a Saturday, regardless of it's teaching, rather than going to a Bible believing, Jesus centred and loving Church. That, really, tells me enough. I'm sorry, but it is religiosity that makes you urge me to ditch sound doctrine in favour of a day.
Your comments on sincere Christians versus fake ones based on fruit is accurate enough, but here's the thing. You know nothing of me...at all. I could tell you how much I love Jesus, or how I am assured beyond doubt of my salvation, because there is no way apart from the Holy Spirit residing within me that I would be able to strive as I do. I could tell you of my growth, my fruit, even my weaknesses, but for you it would still come back to a day. You say I cannot truly be saved if I deliberately worship on Sunday.
I'm sorry, but the Bible just doesn't say I need to gather on a Saturday. Jesus came to free me from all that religion...He tells me that how I follow Him and fulfil the law, is to love Him and others. That's good enough for me, and if you disagree, well, I'm sorry that you do, but I can't let someone stuck on religion sway me. It's that simple.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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Thankyou. However, I have trouble following you...you seem to declare a seemingly genuine belief in faith by grace alone, etc, but then you declare that people 'worshipping on Sunday' are deliberately breaking God's laws, and are therefore NOT saved....

Incorrect, that's not at all what I teach or believe. In Rev 18:4 it says Come out of HER MY PEOPLE, which indicates that God has HIS people in the false system of Babylon. And God is calling them out.

This won't become a salvation issue until AFTER the Mark of the Beast is enforced, which is still future.

However, I am also saying that many people claim to be saved and even think they are saved, but they were NEVER saved in the first place. You can tell the true from the false Christians by their LOVE and by how they view the Law. True Christians who have truly been saved will delight in the Law, and the false christians who were never saved will not follow the Law and teach others it's OK to disregard the Law. These people are in for a shock when they learn they never did God's will and will not be saved, but they thought they were saved.

Those who said they were saved by grace and turned their back on the Law were never born again and God could not write His Law on their hearts because they were fake christians, and this verse will apply to them:

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

To willfully disobey God's Law is to willfully disregard God's will. They will be shocked and completely stunned, because all the time they thought grace could save them whilst they willfully disobeyed God and turned their back on God's Law.

God bless.
 

Rach1370

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Incorrect, that's not at all what I teach or believe. In Rev 18:4 it says Come out of HER MY PEOPLE, which indicates that God has HIS people in the false system of Babylon. And God is calling them out.

This won't become a salvation issue until AFTER the Mark of the Beast is enforced, which is still future.

Okay...maybe I missed you saying this earlier? I still don't agree with it...at all. Worshipping Jesus on a Sunday is not sinning.

However, I am also saying that many people claim to be saved and even think they are saved, but they were NEVER saved in the first place. You can tell the true from the false Christians by their LOVE and by how they view the Law. True Christians who have truly been saved will delight in the Law, and the false christians who were never saved will not follow the Law and teach others it's OK to disregard the Law. These people are in for a shock when they learn they never did God's will and will not be saved, but they thought they were saved.

Those who said they were saved by grace and turned their back on the Law were never born again and God could not write His Law on their hearts because they were fake christians, and this verse will apply to them:

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

To willfully disobey God's Law is to willfully disregard God's will. They will be shocked and completely stunned, because all the time they thought grace could save them whilst they willfully disobeyed God and turned their back on God's Law.

God bless.

This, I'm starting to understand a little better. You are saying, that like David, we want to savour the law? That in Christ it becomes not an onerous thing to be followed at cost of damnation, but a joy because we see it through the perfection of Jesus?
I still disagree with our need to live by the OT law, not when Jesus fulfilled it did away with the need for it. It is still a holy and beautiful thing, but it will never be the same as it was before Jesus...we don't need to rely on it for salvation, but on Christ.
And here's where the contradiction in your beliefs come. You say that you believe that Salvation is through faith in Christ alone, but then you say that by "not doing God's will you will not be saved". You cannot say both, and yet that's what you're trying to do. You are saying that Salvation actually comes through Jesus AND doing something. The Bible teaches that any 'gospel' that tries to ad anything to the cross in order for one to have salvation...is a false one.
So either salvation is through Jesus and unconditional on our actions....or salvation is works based. You cannot walk the line between the two, and yet that is what you are doing.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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Okay...maybe I missed you saying this earlier? I still don't agree with it...at all. Worshipping Jesus on a Sunday is not sinning.



This, I'm starting to understand a little better. You are saying, that like David, we want to savour the law? That in Christ it becomes not an onerous thing to be followed at cost of damnation, but a joy because we see it through the perfection of Jesus?
I still disagree with our need to live by the OT law, not when Jesus fulfilled it did away with the need for it. It is still a holy and beautiful thing, but it will never be the same as it was before Jesus...we don't need to rely on it for salvation, but on Christ.
And here's where the contradiction in your beliefs come. You say that you believe that Salvation is through faith in Christ alone, but then you say that by "not doing God's will you will not be saved". You cannot say both, and yet that's what you're trying to do. You are saying that Salvation actually comes through Jesus AND doing something. The Bible teaches that any 'gospel' that tries to ad anything to the cross in order for one to have salvation...is a false one.
So either salvation is through Jesus and unconditional on our actions....or salvation is works based. You cannot walk the line between the two, and yet that is what you are doing.

You are free to willfully break God's 10 Commandments, but as for me, NEVER!

Don't be shocked if you get told at Judgement day that you never did God's will, Mat 7:21, I am telling you ahead of time so you won't get shocked.

Revelation 22:14 Blesssed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

I have been attacked for many years when I preach about lovingly obeying God's Commandments, and here is the reason why:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

For a lost person, they won't delight in the 10 Commandments, in fact they will tell people they don't need to obey them. But the saved will love the 10 Commandments:

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

And this verse applies to all who do not want to keep the 10 Commandments, and for everyone who speaks against keeping the 10 Commandments.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Rach, you can run and hide all you want from Matthew 7:21, but it's clear, unless a person does the will of God, they cannot enter heaven, and the Bible says those who willfully do not keep God's Commandments cannot enter heaven! But we are saved by FAITH and GRACE ALONE, but an extension of that SINCERE salvation is obeying God. Those who willfully disobey God have never been sealed or saved with the Holy Spirit to begin with, that's what you do not understand.

Now read this verse over and over until it sinks in:

Revelation 22:14 Blesssed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

You now will have NO EXCUSE at Judgement day, you have read these truths.

God bless.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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truthseeker2012 is teaching salvation and justification by grace, but sanctification by law. Paul encountered this same problem in Galatia, and rebuked it.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:1-5

truthseeker2012 just doesn't understand that it's not about obeying the law of Moses, but about obeying the higher law of the spirit.
 
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Episkopos

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This arguing over which day is more holy than the other reveals a carnality of mind..

The early church met EVERY DAY. All days are holy when you are in Christ. When you are still under the law (rather than grace) then you make an effort to keep at least ONE day holy.

The law is like training wheel for infants.

Imagine a person (who is convinced of their rightness) trying to exhort a cycle racer that they need training wheels on their bike. Of course that one could only be a naive child...or else a deluded head case.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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truthseeker2012 is teaching salvation and justification by grace, but sanctification by law. Paul encountered this same problem in Galatia, and rebuked it.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:1-5

truthseeker2012 just doesn't understand that it's not about obeying the law of Moses, but about obeying the higher law of the spirit.

HeRoseFromTheDead, you are continuing to make false accusations against me. You are either not reading my posts or willfully making false accusations towards me, or both.

Let me explain it one more more. I preach and teach that to gain the "salvation goal" we trust in Jesus and that we are saved, justified and sanctified by faith alone. HOWEVER, I teach that once a person is genuinly, sincerely and truly sealed with the Holy Spirit and born again, that God writes His Law on the heart and we obey God and keep His Law and 10 Commandments out of loyalty and obedience and joy and RESULT of having been saved. Those people who claim to have been saved and born again, yet speaks against the Law and 10 Commandments and does not want to obey them have not been saved or born again in the first place and even though they thought they were saved and will enter heaven, they will not, because to break God's Law is to willfully disobey God's Will, Matthew 7:21.

So now I have a question for you HeRoseFromTheDead....once a Christian is saved, do you teach that they should and are free to willfully break the Law and 10 Commandments? YES or NO?

God bless.

This arguing over which day is more holy than the other reveals a carnality of mind..

The early church met EVERY DAY. All days are holy when you are in Christ. ...

That comment contradicts Scripture and is a false teaching!

God did not sanctify and make Holy ALL DAYS, He only made the Sabbath day Holy.

That's like God making one particular mountain Holy, and then you falsely claim that God made ALL mountains Holy. That is a lie and an attack on God and Scripture and one day at Judgement day you will give account to God for your false teaching.

God bless.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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Truthseeker..do you not know that we are in the Sabbath...the Most High God is in rest....

What you fail to realise is, that due to eisegesis and brainwashing since a child, you have been taught to see things in Bible which are not truly there. The Sabbath was never abolished, none of the 10 Commandments were and are still valid today.

If we are going to use your flawed reasoning that The Most High God is in rest, then answer me this question... The Bible says in Genesis that in the beginning God created the Earth and rested on the seventh day. So why did Jesus keep the Sabbath day Holy if The Most High God went into rest 4000 years earlier? And why was it Paul's custom to keep the Sabbath day Holy if The Most High God entered rest 4000 years earlier, and why did the Most High God give the 4th Sabbath Commandment at Mount Sinai if He went into rest after the 7th day creation?

I really look forward to you reply. Thank you, God bless.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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So now I have a question for you HeRoseFromTheDead....once a Christian is saved, do you teach that they should and are free to willfully break the Law and 10 Commandments? YES or NO?

No, of course not. What I do teach is that having died to the demands of the law of Moses, we are now commanded to obey a greater law. So instead of "thou shalt not commit adultery with thy neighbor's wife", it's now "don't even have impure thoughts about her." Or instead of "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, and do no servile work", it's now "Remember my sabbath rest always, and do no works of the flesh".

David unlawfully ate showbread, yet was justified before God. Some children of Israel in the wilderness only desired to collect manna on the sabbath, and were condemned by God. Yet the priests actually labored on the sabbath and were blameless. Can you explain these contradictions?
 

TruthSeeker2012

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No, of course not. What I do teach is that having died to the demands of the law of Moses, we are now commanded to obey a greater law. So instead of "thou shalt not commit adultery with thy neighbor's wife", it's now "don't even have impure thoughts about her." Or instead of "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, and do no servile work", it's now "Remember my sabbath rest always, and do no works of the flesh".

David unlawfully ate showbread, yet was justified before God. Some children of Israel in the wilderness only desired to collect manna on the sabbath, and were condemned by God. Yet the priests actually labored on the sabbath and were blameless. Can you explain these contradictions?

I have some questions for you:

1. What "Greater Law" do you refer to and where in Bible can I find "Greater Law"? And where in Bible does it talk about and teach about "doing no works in the flesh"? Bible chapter? Verse?

2. Can you please tell me which of these following Commandments you willfully break and believe we no longer need to obey?

1. You shall have no other gods before me. <--- Do you willfully break this Commandment? Yes or No?

2. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. <--- Do you willfully break this Commandment? Yes or No?

3. You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. <--- Do you willfully break this Commandment? Yes or No?

4. Remember the sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. <--- Do you willfully break this Commandment? Yes or No?

5. Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you. <--- Do you willfully break this Commandment? Yes or No?

6. You shall not murder. <--- Do you willfully break this Commandment? Yes or No?

7. You shall not commit adultery. <--- Do you willfully break this Commandment? Yes or No?

8. You shall not steal. <--- Do you willfully break this Commandment? Yes or No?

9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. <--- Do you willfully break this Commandment? Yes or No?

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or
anything that belongs to your neighbor. <--- Do you willfully break this Commandment? Yes or No?

Thank you HeRoseFromTheDead.

BTW, there were no contradictions with David, so there are no contradictions to explain. I was actually horrified you claim to be a Christian yet also claim the Bible contains contradictions. Very shocking, very surprising!

God bless.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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My intuition told me that you would run and hide from my questions, because you don't want to answer my questions in the above post because you know that what you teach cannot be found in Bible and you know if you went through all the 10 Commandments that you would have to admit that it's still applicable. I KNEW you would sidestep and run and hide.

May I remind you HeRoseFromTheDead, this is a DEBATE thread, you are supposed to DEBATE fairly, and not run and hide as soon as the going gets tough. As soon as I ask too hard and too challenging questions that you realise will contradict your statements, you run and hide instead of maturely and honestly admitting your errors and continuing to maturely debate.

Imagine 2 people debating in a synagogue, and as soon as one person is asked a tough question, they ignore the person asking the questions, run out of the synagogue, and hide. Imagine if that were to happen? He would never be taken serious again and would give the impression his got something to hide or his frightened off something.

Obviously debating is not for you, and maybe you should not be in the debating thread...debating is only for the humble and strong who can handle it without running off and hiding.

God bless.
 

Rach1370

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And here's where the contradiction in your beliefs come. You say that you believe that Salvation is through faith in Christ alone, but then you say that by "not doing God's will you will not be saved". You cannot say both, and yet that's what you're trying to do. You are saying that Salvation actually comes through Jesus AND doing something. The Bible teaches that any 'gospel' that tries to ad anything to the cross in order for one to have salvation...is a false one.
So either salvation is through Jesus and unconditional on our actions....or salvation is works based. You cannot walk the line between the two, and yet that is what you are doing.

You are free to willfully break God's 10 Commandments, but as for me, NEVER!

Don't be shocked if you get told at Judgement day that you never did God's will, Mat 7:21, I am telling you ahead of time so you won't get shocked.

No, of course not. What I do teach is that having died to the demands of the law of Moses, we are now commanded to obey a greater law. So instead of "thou shalt not commit adultery with thy neighbor's wife", it's now "don't even have impure thoughts about her." Or instead of "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, and do no servile work", it's now "Remember my sabbath rest always, and do no works of the flesh".

David unlawfully ate showbread, yet was justified before God. Some children of Israel in the wilderness only desired to collect manna on the sabbath, and were condemned by God. Yet the priests actually labored on the sabbath and were blameless. Can you explain these contradictions?

I have some questions for you:


Okay....here's the thing...you are a hypocrite. You constantly go on about us not answering you questions (which we have done over and over, and to say we haven't is lying...oops, isn't that breaking a law?), but then you dodge questions that could...no, would, make your point shatter. How about you man up and answer the questions above instead of dodging. Until you answer them you're not going to get a shred of respect from anyone here...
 
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TruthSeeker2012

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Okay....here's the thing...you are a hypocrite. You constantly go on about us not answering you questions (which we have done over and over, and to say we haven't is lying...oops, isn't that breaking a law?), but then you dodge questions that could...no, would, make your point shatter. How about you man up and answer the questions above instead of dodging. Until you answer them you're not going to get a shred of respect from anyone here...

You have falsely accused me yet again. Show me any question you have asked me and I will answer it as I have always done. I have never left a question unanswered, so please for your own sake, stop making false accusations against thy neighbour.

Your comments are a sidestepping strategy, so you can avoid answering my questions. I have seen that strategy used before.

Now focus Rach, get back onto topic, answer my questions, stop desperately truing to change topic and stop sidestepping.

Ask me any question about salvation, and then answer all my questions. Fair is fair, so stop sidestepping and trying to change topics. Stop being afraid to answer my questions.

Please answer this question... can a person be saved and inherit eternal life if they continue murdering people, sleeping with lots of different sexual partners every day and night and continue to rob and deceive people? Yes or No?

God bless.
 

Rach1370

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:D Oh, you just take the cake! I can just see it now....when you die and stand before God and He asks you why He should let you into the kingdom, you're gonna say "but you haven't answered my questions. Stop being so afraid God...answer me first..."

:D You really can't see what you're doing? You honestly can't see that you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of?? Oh, that's brilliant!
 

TruthSeeker2012

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Rach, you are sidestepping again and going off topic.

Please answer this question... can a person be saved and inherit eternal life if they continue murdering people, sleeping with lots of different sexual partners every day and night and continue to rob and deceive people? Yes or No?

God bless.