Luke 15 demonstrates that Jesus is a universalist
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Say what? Who is all?
Even many Christians have never read the Bible.
And historically, Bibles were not even available for laity to own until the 16th century. (citation needed)
Broad distribution not until the 19th century. And not globally, or in every language. Still isn't.
Everyone that has sound doctrine has read the bible. I have read it a few times over. My doctrine appears more clean than some that visit these forums promoting heresy.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Frankly, that scripture cannot be about our eternal destiny UNLESS... God is playing a high-stakes game of hide and seek with our souls.
"Oh, too bad. You were so close. Better luck next time. Oh wait... there won't be a next time. Ha, ha, ha, ha..." (evil laugh)
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
How do you define "heresy"?
Was Jesus basically accused of heresy? (yes)
What about Martin Luther? (and many others)
I think heresy is WAY underrated. - LOL
Perhaps. I guess we have Jesus promoting true doctrine in the bible. Anything that defies Jesus' teachings is probably some form of heresy.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
My understanding is that doctrine is man-made.
Doctrine is an attempt to codify the words of the Bible into useful statements. (conclusions)
In some cases (or even many) these attempts have failed.
And we end up with conflicting doctrines. One group believes this, and another group believes that.
Both with biblical support. So, who is right?
What is true doctrine? There is no consensus.
My posture is to accept people where they are and hear them out. I only want to understand them.
I don't need to "correct" them to my view. I only seek to challenge their thinking.
They need to decide. I respect anyone that has done their homework and come to a conclusion.
I have no respect for idiots that spout nonsense they heard somewhere, without giving any thought themselves.
How many will burn in Hell. Jesus clearly warned us.
Luke 13
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell! Satan LOVES Universalism!
The originator of this topic should have read Luke 13 and Luke 16, not just the parts he likes.
Luke 13
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell! Satan LOVES Universalism!
The originator of this topic should have read Luke 13 and Luke 16, not just the parts he likes.
That sounds too bleak for me to accept. The book of Revelation spells out countless people worshiping Jesus in the end.
And Revelation also confirms Jesus' clear warning.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Sure, but who is the beast and false prophet. We know that the anti-christ is a spirit that denies that Jesus is the Messiah. Perhaps the false prophet is that same spirit. And he denies that Jesus is the Messiah.
The savior of all people, especially of those who believe, yes. We need to quote the whole verse to see the whole picture. In that very verse, 1 Timothy 4:10, Paul himself distinguishes between the unlimited, general nature of the sufficiency of Christ's atonement to cover all, but that His atonement is limited and specific in that it only applies to or is efficacious for believers ~ as I said, God's elect, those given to Christ by the Father.
Another passage that comes to mind (among many), is Jesus's teaching in John 10. He says, "I am the good shepherd." (He is referring to Psalm 23 here). "I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay My life down for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice." His hearers said, "If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." And Jesus's response was, "I told you and you do not believe... you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."
God does not "spin" or "twist." His word is His word; it is what it is. Not all will be saved, but only those whom God chose in Himself before the foundation of the world, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 1. God has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills... Desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, God has endured with much patience (this is common grace, given to all) vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory (this is particular grace, given only to His elect), as Paul puts it in Romans 9.
Grace and peace to you, Patrick.
Why would you believe that infants dying in infancy cannot be among the elect of God and therefore, like John-the-Baptist have the Spirit in them to keep them alive even after death?
Luke 1:13-15 (KJV) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Still being in his mother's womb the baby leapt for joy upon hearing the voice of Christ's earthly mother.
Luke 1:39-42 (KJV) And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
I believe we are elect of God from the foundation of the world and our names written in the Lambs book of Life. Therefore, it matters not when one lives and dies if they are ordained for eternal life in Christ none of them will be lost. Even infants ordained to life through Christ shall be saved. There are some whose names were not written in the book of life, since they shall not be found written there at the judgment they will be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.
Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
It is you Patrick who must spin, twist and somersault to avoid acknowledging that ALL cannot mean without exception! It means "all people" without distinction, or peoples of faith from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue who believe. If you try to force "all people" to all without exception, then you have MANY verses of Scripture to reconcile or you can ignore the contradiction your doctrine forces into the Word of God.
Thank you. My understanding and belief is that Jesus's sheep are saved through their faith in him. Everyone else will need to go through the Lake of Fire but that will be temporary and they too will be fixed and will then join the flock. Jesus won't stop until ALL are in the kingdom as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15. Again, this is my understanding/belief.
Your arguments for universalism are not founded on Scripture but are founded upon emotionalism!
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