Luke 15 demonstrates that Jesus is a universalist
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I'm not trying to "force" anything my brother, but I am reminded of what the good book says.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God
Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
[PM1]
And those are all conditional to believing and serving Jesus. You can't just pick the verses you like.
We previously attempted this discussion but it failed when you were unwilling to answer simple questions. That's ok. I'll still love you my brother. May God bless you.
Well, great, Patrick. And Who is the Giver of this saving faith? Paul (again) is very clear on that in Ephesians 2:4-10, particularly verses 8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast..."
Hmm, well I agree with the first half of what you say (up to the "but"), but...
So you don't believe in eternal punishment for some, despite various passages throughout the Bible being crystal clear in enunciating that. Speaking of Revelation 20 and the lake of fire,, "day and night forever and ever" (20:10) does not sound temporary to me. You might say that is only for the Satan and his minions, but those whose name is not found written in the book of life will follow into that same lake of fire (20:15). But okay.Well, very true. Paul also says it this way in Romans 11, that "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel... " ~ not all people, because not all are of God's Israel ~ "...will be saved." Sadly, on Judgment Day, Jesus will finally say to many, "I never knew you; depart from me..." (Matthew 7:23), and these will go away into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).
Very well. Grace and peace to you.
How can it be temporary Patrick? They will be destroyed by body and soul. When there is no longer a soul, there is no longer life.
Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
They will certainly wish they were destroyed!
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
They will certainly wish they were destroyed!
Which verse and translation are you referring to with regard to "eternal" punishment, etc., please?
Matthew 25:46
Young's Literal Translation
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Matthew 25:41
Young's Literal Translation
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
Revelation 20:10
Young's Literal Translation
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
Thank you. It's interesting to discuss doctrine and to try and increase our own understanding while also helping others to increase theirs. What we must not do is become offended or angry with one another.
I think the problem here, Michlah-Imla ~ not to insinuate that you (or anyone else) has a "problem," but only that there is one...
~ is what some think this "eternal torture" to be. There will be no physical torture administered by anyone ~ much by less God ~ for any length of time. But being in that place for any length of time will be... well, a torturous experience, an experience devoid of hope, one of utter and unquenchable anguish. And as such, it will really, I think, be far, far worse than physical torture. And the occupants of this place will have no one to blame but themselves, which I would say is surely part of this anguish.Grace and peace to you.
I already quoted YLT to you that says you're wrong.
Luke 16:19-26 (YLT)
19 `And--a certain man was rich, and was clothed in purple and fine linen, making merry sumptuously every day, 20 and there was a certain poor man, by name Lazarus, who was laid at his porch, full of sores, 21 and desiring to be filled from the crumbs that are falling from the table of the rich man; yea, also the dogs, coming, were licking his sores. 22 `And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham--and the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom, 24 and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame. 25 `And Abraham said, Child, remember that thou did receive--thou--thy good things in thy life, and Lazarus in like manner the evil things, and now he is comforted, and thou art distressed; 26 and besides all these things, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that they who are willing to go over from hence unto you are not able, nor do they from thence to us pass through.
Matthew 25:46 (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Exact same time length.
I think the problem is that Bibles such as the King James and many other English translations contradict themselves by saying in one verse that Jesus is the savior of ALL people and then in another verse saying that some will go to eternal torment. I believe that is because they mistranslated aionin into "eternal" when it the proper translation should be "for the age". As far as I know, the Young's Literal Translation accurately translates aionin and so it does not contradict itself. But that's just my understanding.
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