Luke 15 demonstrates that Jesus is a universalist

[PinSeeker]

Revelation 20:10​

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Young's Literal Translation​

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10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

Yeah, not all of Young's is bad, but I would stay away from it. I would encourage you to try the ESV or the NASB. But this is not bad; do you not understand "to the ages of the ages" to be into eternity future, and forever and ever? And again, this lake of fire is the eternal dwelling place of all those whose name is not found in the book of life (Revelation 20:15).

Thank you. It's interesting to discuss doctrine and to try and increase our own understanding while also helping others to increase theirs. What we must not do is become offended or angry with one another.

Sure. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Patrick1966]

do you not understand "to the ages of the ages" to be into eternity future

Thank you my brother but I don't share that belief. I believe that God works on us through "ages" and that those ages will be completed when Jesus gives the kingdom to God as described in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 esv

20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in ALL.

 

[Patrick1966]

And again, this lake of fire is the eternal dwelling place of all those whose name is not found in the book of life (Revelation 20:15).

I have a different belief. I believe that those that fall short or tossed into the "Lake of Fire" for punishment but punishment for the purpose of correction, refinement, and restoration.

I don't share the belief that Jesus would cast out FOREVER a soul to be abandoned and condemned to eternal misery. That's not consistent with Jesus's teachings nor his nature.

1 John 4:7-14
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Patrick1966]

I truly doubt that you're qualified to say our Bibles are wrong.

You don't need me to do that brother. Please read the plethora of scriptures previously provided in this thread that say that ALL will be saved and then read the scriptures from the translations that you use that contradict those verses by saying that some will be damned for ETERNITY.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well, if Jesus leaves them there forever then Lamentations is wrong.

Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever[PM1]

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[PM1]

Oh, boy. Ugh. The book of Lamentations, Patrick, is written to the Israelites in their exile to Babylon assuring them that God's judgment placed upon them is temporary and will not last forever, that their relationship with God will be restored, and that God's mercy and faithfulness ~ and even blessing ~ is unfailing for His people, even in such dire circumstances. It is very much along the same lines as what Paul says to those in Christ in Romans 8, particularly verse 28, where he writes, "God works all things..." ~ ALL THINGS ~ "...together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose."

Wow.

Well... grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I have a different belief.

Yes, I know. And that's... okay. Maybe you'll change your mind someday. Or I should say, maybe the Spirit will.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Patrick1966]

Oh, boy. Ugh. The book of Lamentations, Patrick, is written to the Israelites...

I know. I believe that God does not cast off forever Jews or Gentiles.

 

[Patrick1966]

Maybe you'll change your mind someday. Or I should say, maybe the Spirit will.

I don't know. The plethora of scripture seems clear to me, but perhaps I am not seeing clearly.

 

[PinSeeker]

I believe that God does not cast off forever Jews or Gentiles.

Not those who are of Israel, I agree. And I would agree with you even of those who are not Israel, either, but in a very different way. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Jack]

You don't need me to do that brother. Please read the plethora of scriptures previously provided in this thread that say that ALL will be saved and then read the scriptures from the translations that you use that contradict those verses by saying that some will be damned for ETERNITY.

I'll stick with the Bible. They all say you're wrong. You can't just pick the parts you like. That's a good way to end up in Hell, "forever and ever".

Revelation 22
19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

We have clearly been warned by God.

 

[Patrick1966]

I'll stick with the Bible.

Well, I guess that's the crux of the matter. Do you realize that you're not reading the ORIGINAL scriptures but translations? Which Bible translation do you use?

I too "stick" with the Bible but there are clear and numerous examples of the King James and most other English TRANSLATIONS contradicting themselves because of, I believe, incorrect translations.

In the end, my brother, it doesn't matter. As long as you and I believe in Jesus and try to do his will and love one another, we're saved. Our conjecturing with one another on everything beyond that is not important.

 

[lforrest]

Back when I believed in eternal damnation, I pondered this question. It didn't make sense to me that, a person who would have lived a full life and been condemned to eternal damnation is instead saved and goes to Heaven only because they died in infancy.

Does that make sense? Of course not.

Calvinists will claim that many dead babies are sent to eternal damnation, but that also doesn't make any sense at all and it's certainly contrary to Jesus's nature.

The only logical conclusion is that ALL are, eventually, saved from eternal damnation. People may indeed be damned, but it's not forever and it's not solely for punishment but also for restoration

You are assuming an impossible hypothetical situation, where God does not have perfect foresight. Children who die were destined to die, and reprobates who die are predestined for destruction.

I don't know what Calvinists believe, nether do I care as I believe what is written in the word of God.

Jesus said the kingdom of heaven belongs to those such as these. And suffer not the children to come to me.

Also the judgement is based upon our own words. So how can an infant be judged? Older Children are also impressionable, so I trust God in this.

 

[Patrick1966]

Not those who are of Israel, I agree. And I would agree with you even of those who are not Israel, either, but in a very different way. Grace and peace to you.

May I ask, how do you reconcile the numerous verses, such as Romans 5:18, which the scriptures that say that some will face eternity in the LOF?

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

 

[Patrick1966]

You are assuming an impossible hypothetical situation, where God does not have perfect foresight.

No my brother; I communicated no such idea.

 

[PinSeeker]

May I ask, how do you reconcile the numerous verses, such as Romans 5:18, which the scriptures that say that some will face eternity in the LOF?

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

I would submit to you, Patrick, that Romans 5:18 speaks to the sufficiency of Christ's act on the cross to lead to the justification of all, but not all are justified. Paul is writing this letter to the church in Rome (and to us as Christians by extension), of course, not to all. The whole of Romans 1 through 7 is about the sinful state of all men, the natural human condition. Then, finally, in Romans 8:1, he states that there is no longer any condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Only those in Christ Jesus are justified in their sin, because they are in Christ Jesus. Like Abraham, our belief is credited to us as righteousness. This is God's justification, and it is not universal. Even finally, not all will be in Christ Jesus. Paul is speaking to a subset of all men when he says, in Romans 8:29-30, "For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." The strong implication in this is that the "those" he is speaking of is not inclusive of everyone, but only His elect, which he then speaks of in Romans 9-11.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[lforrest]

No my brother; I communicated no such idea.

Back when I believed in eternal damnation, I pondered this question. It didn't make sense to me that, a person who would have lived a full life and been condemned to eternal damnation is instead saved and goes to Heaven only because they died in infancy.

The above is what I am referring to as an impossible hypothetical situation. A person who would have been condemned is instead saved because they died as an infant...

This Implies a possibility of dual destinies for one person based on changing providence. But this would also render predestination as changeable. So I would say so what?

Think of driving a car, a foot to the left or right can mean the difference between life and death. Or a sudden cardiac arrest may take us out. God can demand our life whenever he wants. And he knows exactly when our number is up. And our soul is exactly in the state he knew it would be in for the judgement.

 

[Patrick1966]

The above is what I am referring to as an impossible hypothetical situation. A person who would have been condemned is instead saved because they died as an infant...

This Implies a possibility of dual destinies for one person based on changing providence. But this would also render predestination as changeable. So I would say so what?

Think of driving a car, a foot to the left or right can mean the difference between life and death. Or a sudden cardiac arrest may take us out. God can demand our life whenever he wants. And he knows exactly when our number is up. And our soul is exactly in the state he knew it would be in for the judgement.

I was referring to the belief that some adults are condemned to eternal damnation while simultaneously believing that ALL infants get an automatic entry to Heaven. I have never subscribed to that belief nor do I believe that infants are condemned. I believe ALL infants go to Heaven and that, eventually, everyone else will join God in his kingdom.

 

[PinSeeker]

Just to speak to this conversation regarding infants and salvation...

Along the exact same lines as Patrick and I have been discussing regarding the merits or lack thereof universalism... God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He has compassion upon whom He will have compassion. This is His purpose of election. He has mercy on whom he wills, and he hardens those whom He wills. I would humbly submit that this Scripture, straight from Romans 9, applies to people of all ages. I respect any disagreement with that, but... God is God, and He is the one who calls and justifies ~ works salvation in a person ~ or not, according to His will. For any individual of any age, unless and until that happens, we all stand condemned, regardless of age; this is the natural human condition. We cannot know exactly who is or will be a member of His elect, such is the nature of His ~ for now ~ invisible church, but, in addition to loving Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, we can love all people as ourselves, which is exactly what He commands us to do; as Jesus says in Matthew 22, on these two commandments hang the entire Law and Prophets (Scripture).

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Olin]

The message is clear - NONE will be lost forever!

Luke 15​

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English Standard Version​

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The Parable of the Lost Sheep​

15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
3 So he told them this parable: 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

The Parable of the Lost Coin​

8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins,[a] if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ 10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

The Parable of the Prodigal Son​

11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to[b] one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’[c] 22 But the father said to his servants,[d] ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.
25 “Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ 31 And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”

God certainly loves everyone universally. Only those loving Him will be with Him forever.

 

[Olin]

I was referring to the belief that some adults are condemned to eternal damnation while simultaneously believing that ALL infants get an automatic entry to Heaven. I have never subscribed to that belief nor do I believe that infants are condemned. I believe ALL infants go to Heaven and that, eventually, everyone else will join God in his kingdom.

Do you have any Bible showing all dead infants going anywhere specific? All will join God in His kingdom who come to Him by faith. I know you don't have any Bible saying everyone ever born will go to heaven. The Bible contradicts that. Maybe they will all see heaven when raised to be judged and know what they will miss.