Olivet Discourse revisited

[quietthinker]

lol...you haven't read the Olivet Discourse...there is force and violence in it.

Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The Olivet Discourse?.....Matthew 5

The OD is found in Matthew 24-25, not in Matthew 5.

ahhhh, seems I have addressed the wrong thing if thats the case

 

[Randy Kluth]

Interesting presentation Randy.

The Olivet discourse I believe was Jesus' seminal statement of his mission (The Kingdom of God) and how it works.
It was a statement which characterises the heart of God.....no force, no violence. Quiet contrary to what the Jews expected of their Messiah and what they deemed 'liberation'..... Quite contrary to how many Christians today believe God will behave towards his enemies in the future.

The Middle Ages saw an awakening and all the reformers in that period agreed that the anti-christ was the Pope. Rome could not counter the position until one of its shining lights, a Jesuit by the name of Francisco Ribera became the champion of the Counter-Reformation by presenting his theory on the interpretation on many of the prophecies where the anti-christ is spoken of.
It became known as Futurism. This appeared to take the heat of the Roman system and push the whole anti-christ thing far into the future.
Most protestants today believe Ribera's exegesis, totally unaware of its origins and the package it peddles. They are unwittingly making an 'image to the beast'
They have left behind Jesus' seminal speech as difficult to understand. No wonder, they have taken the bait and swallowed the poison cleverly engineered by the Prince of Darkness.

Yes, I'm aware of Ribera and the Catholic effort to undo the claim that the Pope was the Antichrist. Ribera believed in a future Antichrist, unlike the Reformers in his time who believed the Pope to be the Antichrist. And yes, there is a connection between Ribera and Darby's Dispensationalism.

Ribera's (died 1591) Futurist views, combined with Manuel Lacunza's (died 1801) later Futurist views became material Edward Irving employed in his own eschatology. And Darby picked up on this Futurism, on Ribera's future Antichrist and on Lacunza's Premillennialism, reproduced by Edward Irving, creating his Dispensationalism.

Ribera apparently originated the idea of a future 70th Week of Dan 9. And Darby used this in his system.

 

[Timtofly]

What to believe?

1. Your cultic modernism
2. Historic orthodox Christianity

Do you need a hint?

God's Word, obviously not one of your choices. I have no cultic modernism, whatever that is. You have human theology, but not the Word of God.

 

[covenantee]

God's Word, obviously not one of your choices. I have no cultic modernism, whatever that is. You have human theology, but not the Word of God.

So historic orthodox Christianity does not have the Word of God, but you do.

Imagine that.

More evidence of a one-man cult.

Thanks for the guffaws.

 

[Timtofly]

So historic orthodox Christianity does not have the Word of God, but you do.

Imagine that.

More evidence of a one-man cult.

Thanks for the guffaws.

That was not your point. You wanted me to choose their writings, only human theology. We have Scripture and the Holy Spirit. You can listen to men. I prefer to listen to God.

Then you make up lies. I guess you can laugh at your own jokes then.

 

[covenantee]

That was not your point. You wanted me to choose their writings, only human theology. We have Scripture and the Holy Spirit. You can listen to men. I prefer to listen to God.

Then you make up lies. I guess you can laugh at your own jokes then.

So historic orthodox Christianity didn't have Scripture and the Holy Spirit and didn't listen to God. Only you do.

Imagine that.

More evidence of a one-man cult.

Thanks for more guffaws.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That was not your point. You wanted me to choose their writings, only human theology. We have Scripture and the Holy Spirit. You can listen to men. I prefer to listen to God.

Then you make up lies. I guess you can laugh at your own jokes then.

You understand that you have some beliefs that no one else has, right? So, it is apparently your opinion that God has only spoken to you on those things and no one else, right? How did it come to be that you are so special that God only speaks to you regarding some things?

 

[Timtofly]

You understand that you have some beliefs that no one else has, right? So, it is apparently your opinion that God has only spoken to you on those things and no one else, right? How did it come to be that you are so special that God only speaks to you regarding some things?

How did it come that the writings of the Reformation are so special and better than Scripture?

 

[Titus]

And so, Lindsey converted what Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse from being about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans to being an endtime prophecy of the generation in which Israel would be reborn as a nation. The passage reads, "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." This prophecy was actually being spoken about Jesus' own generation--"this generation" referred to the generation in which Jesus lived

Amen, amen, amen
Also no physical Jewish nation on earth is prophecied as to come.

 

[Davy]

Amen, amen, amen
Also no physical Jewish nation on earth is prophecied as to come.

Amen NADA!

What Kluth said is a bunch of malarkey.

The generation Jesus was describing in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 is about the FINAL GENERATION that will 'see' His future coming. It definitely was NOT... about the generation of His 1st coming! And to say such a thing against the easy context there is actually funny!

Matt 24:32-35
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
KJV

The subject above is the future return of Lord Jesus.

The object is when that generation SEES ALL THESE THINGS. What things? The Signs of the end that Jesus gave there in Matthew 24.

And 'that' specific generation that SEES ALL THESE THINGS (i.e., SIGNS)... shall not die (pass) until ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.

What Jesus said there is VERY simple. He was NOT pointing to the generation at His 1st coming. That is a LIE by those on the devil's doctrines of Preterism.

(Preterism: That is what men's seminary doctrine called Preterism is, from the word 'preter' which means what is 'past'. Their anchor from men's leaven doctrine is to try and compare Bible Scripture events, especially much of Bible prophecy for the end, with past history. So even very simple Scripture, they will twist it on purpose to try and make it fit their false doctrine of Preterism.)

 

[Titus]

Kluth rightly divided the word of God on this subject,

And 'that' specific generation that SEES ALL THESE THINGS (i.e., SIGNS)... shall not die (pass) until ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.

Look at the ye,

ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This generation is the ye He is speaking to.

This generation will still be living when ALL THESE THINGS BE FULLFILLED.

You are out of context.

 

[Davy]

Kluth rightly divided the word of God on this subject,


Look at the ye,

This generation is the ye He is speaking to.

This generation will still be living when ALL THESE THINGS BE FULLFILLED.

You are out of context.

The qualifier Jesus gave is NOT the pronoun 'ye'.

The qualifier Jesus gave is the generation that would SEE all these things, meaning ALL those Signs of the end He gave. It's as simple as that.

 

[MatthewG]

Why doesn't it make more sense to believe they were taken up and with a new administration established now heavenly - no longer covenant to the old ways?

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


Instead of having to wait, we experience this today.

People find it to be ludacris.

 

[Davy]

Why doesn't it make more sense to believe they were taken up and with a new administration established now heavenly - no longer covenant to the old ways?

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


Instead of having to wait, we experience this today.

People find it to be ludacris.

But that Promise has already begun today, it started at the cross, for both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, but it's simply not complete yet because Lord Jesus' has yet to return and usher us into the world to come.

 

[MatthewG]

Then that would mean he doesn't do what it says if it is not complete yet, Davy.

 

[MatthewG]

What do people wait for when they are expecting JEsus to come back?
What are they expecting to experience?
And is that all the hope they have?

These are some of the deeper more personal questions I wonder about - considering I believe he already came back. My hope is something different than what those who may answer these questions are.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The qualifier Jesus gave is NOT the pronoun 'ye'.

The qualifier Jesus gave is the generation that would SEE all these things, meaning ALL those Signs of the end He gave. It's as simple as that.

That is obviously untrue. If the "qualifier" was a future generation that would see the restoration of Israel, then Jesus wouldn't have been addressing his Disciples in *his own generation.* But he specifically was, in fact, addressing his Disciples in *his own generation!*

How can it been seen as otherwise? Jesus was saying that they, ie his present Disciples, would suffer rejection and persecution, that *they* would preach the Gospel, that the temple they saw in their own time would soon be destroyed? You have it completely turned backward!

Matt 24.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

How can you say with a straight face that Jesus was speaking not to his own Disciples but only to a future generation that would see the Antichrist? Jesus said pointedly that he was speaking of the destruction of Herod's temple--the one standing right in front of them!

In Daniel (ch. 9), whose prophecy Jesus was referring to, the AoD is identified as the "people of the prince to come," aka the Roman Army. Jesus said this Army would surround Jerusalem like vultures and destroy both Jerusalem and the temple in "this generation." How can you say Jesus was not addressing his Disciples and referring to what *they would see?*

I'm not a Preterist, and I do believe in the restoration of national Israel at the return of Christ, but I do agree with Preterists that the AoD was fulfilled in 66-70 AD, and that Jesus was addressing *his own generation.* This is not Preterism alone, but also what the early Church Fathers believed.

Modern Prophecy enthusiasts, who want everything to be about the endtimes, tend to interpret many historically-fulfilled prophecies as if they are still future. I think this is foolish. Give the Preterists their due, though again, I am *not* one of them!

 

[Titus]

The qualifier Jesus gave is NOT the pronoun 'ye'.

The qualifier Jesus gave is the generation that would SEE all these things, meaning ALL those Signs of the end He gave. It's as simple as that.

You are not following the context,

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

Pay attention!!!!

Verse 33,
- when YE SHALL SEE ALL THESE THINGS, Know that it is near, even at the doors

Those Jesus is speaking to shall see ALL THESE THINGS.
Jesus tell the ye, that is how they(the ye) will know the end is near.

Verse 34,
Verly I say unto you(THE YOU IS THE YE IN VERSE 33!!!

- this generation shall not pass(that's the people Jesus is speaking to in verse 33,!!!
- till ALL these things are fullfilled. In verse 33 Jesus told the ye, that they would, SEE ALL, ALL, ALL, THESE THINGS.

THEREFORE VERSE 34 LIKEWISE THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS UNTIL THEY SEE ALL, ALL, ALL, THESE THINGS BE FULLFILLED

You are not following context

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do people wait for when they are expecting JEsus to come back?

The eternal new heavens and a new earth where righteousness dwells and death, pain, mourning and crying no longer occur.

2 Peter 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21:4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Also, we wait for our bodies to be glorified and made immortal (1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Romans 8:18-25) at which point we will be like Jesus in that way and we will see Him as He is (1 John 3:2).

What are they expecting to experience?
And is that all the hope they have?

What more can we hope for than to see Jesus as He is, to have glorious, immortal bodies and to live in a place of perfection where there is no more death, sin, pain, sickness and mourning?

These are some of the deeper more personal questions I wonder about - considering I believe he already came back. My hope is something different than what those who may answer these questions are.

What is your hope exactly then?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Amen, amen, amen
Also no physical Jewish nation on earth is prophecied as to come.

Brother, I appreciate the support, but I'm *not* opposed to belief in the restoration of national Israel at Christ's Coming. I simply adopt positions in each school of thought that I agree with--not necessarily with everything any school presents. But I'm glad wherever we can find agreement!