PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[David in NJ]

Off topic spam. Why not surprise us and address the issues and post verses that fit at least a little bit?

You claim that after the rapture a new separate group of people are getting saved by the Gospel and these are the "tribulation saints".

2 Timothy 2:15-18 says that is a lie.

 

[dad]

My post had 4 sentences. Yours here has 8. Again, you don't seem to know what certain words mean that you use. 4 sentences is not a "drawn out spiel". Not even double that much (yours) is a "drawn out spiel".

No spiel needed at all, thanks. If you recall you were talking about knowing what a thesis is! The point was we don't need one, not that your post was long.

Scripture doesn't say we follow him back to heaven. After meeting him in the clouds, we follow him down to the Earth, to Armageddon.

Scripture doesn't say we sit in the air either. It does say He prepared a place for us and that where He is, there we will be! Plain as day.
The marriage of the Lamb was spoken about in a heaven scene. Not in the air over earth scene. It was from heaven that we left to return to earth when heaven was opened. So yes heaven is very much in the prophetic verses! Your yo yo theory is NOT.

That is a second second coming which is scripturally false. There is ONE second coming.

The verse was posted that He will come a second time and that is anything but false. There is one Rapture which is the second time He comes but does not come to the earth, just the air. Later there is another time He returns with us from heaven to the earth. We know He and the armies that follow Him came from heaven, not the air up there over earth somewhere.
In case any lurker doubts that here is the proof.
Revelation 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[dad]

You don't accept the Day of the Lord as 1,000 years?

Of course I do. A lot happens in that day.

That is why many get 2 Thessalonians 2 wrong as well.

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come..."

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth in the 6th Seal. Then the final harvest begins.

If that is when He returns to the earth, it is not the second coming. The second time Jesus comes it is not to the earth! You are a conflationist.

The Day of the Lord comes, but there are a few things to take care of before it officially starts.

The day of the Lord comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night. The Rapture time is not known. The time after the tribulation when He returns to earth IS known! That is anything but a thief in the night. That is a precise oft given countdown! In the like a thief in the night coming in the air we go UP. In the return to earth we go DOWN.

 

[dad]

You claim that after the rapture a new separate group of people are getting saved by the Gospel and these are the "tribulation saints".

2 Timothy 2:15-18 says that is a lie.

The truth is 2 Tim 2: 15-18 dies not even address the issue of the returns of Christ. Guess where the lie is? The resurrection is not past. No one says it is. Once it is passed then it will be over. Then there are still witnesses preaching and people saved.

 

[ewq1938]

It does say He prepared a place for us and that where He is, there we will be!

It does not say that. It says he will return and we will be where he is, which would be the Earth.

Plain as day.
The marriage of the Lamb was spoken about in a heaven scene. Not in the air over earth scene. It was from heaven that we left to return to earth when heaven was opened. So yes heaven is very much in the prophetic verses! Your yo yo theory is NOT.

Pretrib is yo-yo not post trib. Christ going down from heaven then back up to heaven is a yo-yo doctrine.

The verse was posted that He will come a second time and that is anything but false. There is one Rapture which is the second time He comes but does not come to the earth, just the air. Later there is another time He returns with us from heaven to the earth. We know He and the armies that follow Him came from heaven, not the air up there over earth somewhere.

Wrong again. Armageddon is fought from the air not from the ground.

In case any lurker doubts that here is the proof.
Revelation 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Christ leaves heaven (the 3rd heaven) with an army, but also meets people in the clouds on his way down. Also, the clouds are heaven, called the first heaven.

 

[dad]

It does not say that. It says he will return and we will be where he is, which would be the Earth.

Yes it says exactly that

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

You are wrong He said He went to prepare a place for us (Father's house) Not that some place on earth was prepared for us! In fact we are just pilgrims and strangers here.

Pretrib is yo-yo not post trib. Christ going down from heaven then back up to heaven is a yo-yo doctrine.

He is not going down to earth and back. You stand corrected. The yo yo doctrine is where people claim we go up in the air to meet Him and right back down to earth right away! You will have to wear it.

Wrong again. Armageddon is fought from the air not from the ground.

I never said anywhere in the quote you cite any such thing. For lurkers here is the quote

"The verse was posted that He will come a second time and that is anything but false. There is one Rapture which is the second time He comes but does not come to the earth, just the air. Later there is another time He returns with us from heaven to the earth. We know He and the armies that follow Him came from heaven, not the air up there over earth somewhere."

No mention of Armageddon even. The point was that the return to earth is when He comes right back to the earth. The Rapture is when He comes back to the air not the earth.

Christ leaves heaven (the 3rd heaven) with an army, but also meets people in the clouds on his way down. Also, the clouds are heaven, called the first heaven.

You made that up. No verse says He pauses midway to meet people. When He returns it is in vengeance. He raises believer up to the air, rather than runs into them on the way somewhere else. It does not say He is on the way to land on earth when He raises all believers dead and alive! Name the verse that says that?

 

[ewq1938]

Yes it says exactly that

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

You are wrong He said He went to prepare a place for us (Father's house) Not that some place on earth was prepared for us! In fact we are just pilgrims and strangers here.

And when he says "I will come again and receive you unto myself" where is he?

He is not going down to earth and back. You stand corrected. The yo yo doctrine is where people claim we go up in the air to meet Him and right back down to earth right away!

That's not what a yo-yo represents. Pretrib is a yo-yo doctrine with Christ leaving heaven coming to the clouds and then going right back yo-yo style to heaven.

 

[Randy Kluth]

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Then you don't understand how an Israelite would read that passage. That is whom Jesus was addressing as if you don't see the whole OD already fulfilled. It was not given to the church. The church has had tribulation non stop. The pre-trib rapture would have been Acts 1 when Jesus ascended the first time.

The Second Coming is after the church's nonstop tribulation, but prior to Jacob's trouble. It is Jacob's trouble that is the GT, the final harvest, the Trumpets and Thunders.

"Those days" are over when the church is removed. The trouble is just starting for Jacob starting with Zechariah 14 and the whole ME...

Sounds like you hold to the typical Dispensationalist scenario? I would agree with some of your beliefs, but certainly not all of them.

I agree that the Church has "non-stop" trouble in the current age. But I don't think this is prior to "Jacob's Trouble." I actually believe that the age of Christian persecution and the age of Jacob's Trouble are the same.

I agree that the Olivet Discourse was given to Israel, primarily. And for that reason I think the Great Tribulation is a reference to Israel's Diaspora in the current age, aka "the time of Jacob's Trouble."

Anyway, that's kind of where we agree and disagree.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You do realize that the marriage narrative is figurative? There is no literal marriage nor supper. At least not in this reality. Perhaps in the NHNE?

Yes, I tend to think the Marriage Supper is figurative. I agree with you. I believe it represents the commencement of the inheritance of the earth by the Church. It is the beginning of our rule in the Kingdom of God. Since this will be a happy time, it begins like a feast.

 

[dad]

And when he says "I will come again and receive you unto myself" where is he?

Where will He be when He comes again is the question. He will leave heaven to the air to receive us up to be with Him where He is as the verse mentioned 'in my Father's house'.

That's not what a yo-yo represents.

Yes, it goes up and then down. As opposed to being raised in the air to then go to the Father's house and have a marriage event, later to come with Jesus back to the earth itself. When you have a rapture after the wrath of the tribulation you have believers going up, and faster than an elevator, right back down again!

Pretrib is a yo-yo doctrine with Christ leaving heaven coming to the clouds and then going right back yo-yo style to heaven.

Not all parables are equal. There is a big difference between going to heaven for several years of reuniting and fellowship and rewards given out, etc and some pop up pop down yoyo theory!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Otherwise known as the pee wee yo yo theory. Or the great clumping together or prophetic events!

That's your ridiculous name for it, yes.

Great, at least you seem to believe in the millennium.

I'm not trying to please you, brother.

I pity the people that think that. He is obviously a clumper. A yoyoist!

You need to learn a new word! You obviously haven't read Ladd.

Who said anything about earth? The bible has the scene in heaven before which Jesus opens heaven and comes down here to earth. Only you claim the supper is on earth! The supper on earth is one where the birds are ordered to eat the dead wicked! Different suppers. Does that sound like a fragrant inspiring wedding place to you?

Show me where the marriage supper is in the sky? The only thing I see in heaven is the invitation to the supper. That means it hasn't happened yet.

Who mentioned mechanical but you? Why even talk about it? How God does it no one knows.

You were concerned about up being down. I said not to be worried about the mechanics of going up and down simultaneously.

Yet the Rapture verses I recall don't mention inheritance. You did. Why obsess?

I haven't obsessed. I mention inheritance once, and you think it's my obsession? I mentioned it because that's where Paul said we shall "ever be with the Lord." I mentioned it because the Marriage Supper begins our Marriage and our celebration of that Marriage.

No, so that we may party in heaven! Later we mosey on back down with Him when He returns to the earth. No verse says we shoot out to meet Him on the way down! We go up to be forever with Him, and go to the place He prepared for us. From that place (heaven) we later return with Jesus to the earth.

Mosey on down?

Not my theory. Yours. I point out that the bible does not say we shoot up to meet Him and immediately shoot back down again. That is foolishness.

No, it says we are seized up out of our old bodies and given new immortal bodies by Christ in heaven so that we may return with him in glory to inherit the earth. None of that is foolishness.

Ah, you said it! Ha. That would mean Jesus did not come down here to the air somewhere! Gong! Obviously unbiblical. He comes a second time when we meet Him in the air! You have no second coming but just us shot to heaven. Then you have us all shot back all in a moment!

I reject your description. Nobody does any "shooting" anywhere. I find your descriptions "adolescent" and unserious, dad. Get back with me when you want a serious discussion.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, it goes up and then down.

lol, no. It goes down then the "magic" of the yo-yo brings it back up. You have clearly not had a yo-yo before.

 

[dad]

That's your ridiculous name for it, yes.

As long as we know what it is, what you call it is not the main thing. Your compressing different events (rapture, return to earth and marriage supper) into one momentary event is what we are looking at.

You need to learn a new word! You obviously haven't read Ladd.

What does he say that allows him to escape being a yoyoist?

Show me where the marriage supper is in the sky?

The scene is in heaven where we hear about it. Not only that but in heaven before Jesus opens the heavens and goes down to earth.

The only thing I see in heaven is the invitation to the supper. That means it hasn't happened yet.

No. It can mean the event is ready, has come.

Looking at the verse in another translation it is clearer


So we will be glad and happy and give him praise. The wedding day of the Lamb is here, and his bride is ready.

or

Revelation 19:7

Let us rejoice and shout for joy! Let us give Him glory and honor, for the marriage of the Lamb has come [at last] and His bride (the redeemed) has prepared herself."


Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and let us exult, and we will give glory to Him, because the marriage of the Lamb came, and His wife prepared herself.

The idea in all translations is that the celebration had come. Not that it would come later.

You were concerned about up being down. I said not to be worried about the mechanics of going up and down simultaneously.

I am not worried about that. It is fiction.

I haven't obsessed. I mention inheritance once, and you think it's my obsession? I mentioned it because that's where Paul said we shall "ever be with the Lord."

That has what to do with inheriting stuff?

I mentioned it because the Marriage Supper begins our Marriage and our celebration of that Marriage.

That has what to do with inheriting stuff?

Mosey on down?

Yes. After probably years of reuniting with loved ones, meeting new people and angels and Jesus etc etc etc the time comes for Jesus to return to earth and we go also.

No, it says we are seized up out of our old bodies and given new immortal bodies by Christ in heaven so that we may return with him in glory to inherit the earth. None of that is foolishness.

It is silly when you try to place that at our return - and then proceed to cram the marriage celebration as well into the same micro second event!

I reject your description. Nobody does any "shooting" anywhere.

I agree. We are raised into the air and then go to spend the tribulation years in heaven with Jesus and all believers who ever lived. We do not shoot back down the elevator to earth as soon as we reach the air!

 

[dad]

lol, no. It goes down then the "magic" of the yo-yo brings it back up. You have clearly not had a yo-yo before.

The yoyo can start down and get pulled up. Once we get into advanced yo yo theory that becomes obvious! Maybe you prefer the magic elevator ride parallel? We go up to the air floor and immediately back down to earth! Or maybe the rubber ball theory where it is tossed up and falls back down to earth again!

 

[ewq1938]

The yoyo can start down and get pulled up.

Which is Pretrib with Christ going down then back up. YOU have the yo-yo doctrine and you didn't even know it until I explained.

 

[dad]

Which is Pretrib with Christ going down then back up. YOU have the yo-yo doctrine and you didn't even know it until I explained.

The thing about a yo yo is that it is not a leisurely tour, it goes up and down fast. There is no comparison with a rapture in the air that then proceeds to heaven for several years with lots happening and your up and down move to the air and back in a moment. The rewards and reuniting and fellowship and the marriage celebration etc etc etc that happen after the Rapture is in stark contrast to the yoyoers! They have us going up and down in a moment and for no apparent reason. What, Jesus could not give us new bodies on earth if that was where He was already coming to?? Ha. Why bring millions of dead and living people up in the air only to instantly plop them back down to earth again?

 

[Keraz]

The whole thing about the 'rapture to heaven' theory, is that it is believed by most Christians, especially in the Western nations.
This majority; and with preachers like Dr David Jeremiah and John Hagee, busily promoting the rapture, gives people like @dad here, the support to denigrate and dismiss any opposition to that belief.
However, they fail to note that in Matthew 24:11 Jesus says that many will be deceived and Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 that people will refuse to listen to the truth of scripture and will follow false teachers.

Therefore; it is the majority who are wrong and have accepted the doctrine of the easy way out of the forthcoming hard times ahead.
Those who expect to be taken away from any disaster or time of testing, have simply not read or understood the many scriptures saying how the Lord will test His people and that we must endure until the end. It will winnow out the people who consider that God has let them down.

ONLY those people who have proved their faith by standing firm and trusting in the Lord, will be transported thru the atmosphere, as Philip was: Acts 8:39, to be with Jesus in Jerusalem for the Millennium. Revelation 5:10

 

[David in NJ]

The truth is 2 Tim 2: 15-18 dies not even address the issue of the returns of Christ. Guess where the lie is? The resurrection is not past. No one says it is. Once it is passed then it will be over. Then there are still witnesses preaching and people saved.

Remove the blinders you have on.

2 Timothy 2:15-18 exactly addresses the MOST IMPORTANT issue of Christ's Coming which is the RESURRECTION.

Your lie says: "Christ comes down and raptures the Church while another Church is born-again in the GT and become "Tribulation Saints".

The Resurrection of the Saints only takes place at His Second Coming at The End and HE leaves no one behind - Matt ch24

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Christ only has One Bride, not two.
HE resurrects only One Body of Saints = His Saints at His Coming = Genesis, Gospel, 1 Cor ch15, 1 Thess & 2 Thess

2 Timothy 2:15-18 directly exposes the lies of 'pre-trib rapture'

Now is the time to turn away from falsehood and believe the Truth = if you do it will set you free.

 

[The Light]

5. There is no Antichrist and a False prophet. The man of sin is the False prophet. This is easily deduced by compare and contrast between Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. Sadly, there are many fabrications taught by men and passed down that are just not Biblical. We all learned them

And yet the beast of the earth has TWO HORNS. What do you think that means?

 

[The Light]

Remove the blinders you have on.

2 Timothy 2:15-18 exactly addresses the MOST IMPORTANT issue of Christ's Coming which is the RESURRECTION.

Your lie says: "Christ comes down and raptures the Church while another Church is born-again in the GT and become "Tribulation Saints".

The Resurrection of the Saints only takes place at His Second Coming at The End and HE leaves no one behind - Matt ch24

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Christ only has One Bride, not two.
HE resurrects only One Body of Saints = His Saints at His Coming = Genesis, Gospel, 1 Cor ch15, 1 Thess & 2 Thess

2 Timothy 2:15-18 directly exposes the lies of 'pre-trib rapture'

Now is the time to turn away from falsehood and believe the Truth = if you do it will set you free.

Jacob had two brides. There is a reason for that.

The Lord's ministry was to the Jews. Do you think God falls short on His promise to them?