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You keep saying compressing and conflating. I have stated the exact opposite. Obviously you cannot even prove I have done that. The time of Jacob's trouble has not even started at the 6th Seal.
Who made that rule? Lazarus had his body raised. Jesus also. We will be like He is. You know, the body that walked through walls, flew, ate meals, etc?
Not their bodies! Try visiting a tomb sometime and see if you doubt that.
Says who? Try to remember you made that up completely. That is why you offer no verse to support it. He returns with us. Not snatches us up on the way to vengeance. We are not appointed to that wrath we are not here in the tribulation time of wrath. We were already caught up, got married, had our rewards passed out, etc. No where does it say 'heaven opened, and Jesus went toward earth, stopping on the way to grab the bride He already married and is bring back with Him'
The saints returning with Him have already received incorruptible bodies when God raised their old bodies or what was left of them from the dead!
Right. Why would departed believers need to come with Him to the air above earth where we also are raised? Because we all need our bodies to be resurrected from the dead! The dead in Christ first have their bodies go up (to where their spirits meet it and they have their new eternal bodies) We have to go up in body also where we will receive our new bodies as well. There we will all be, believers dead and alive, now alive and in our eternal body like Jesus. We then return home to be married and get rewards etc. Later we all come on down too earth with Jesus who returns to the earth.
The up path was several years before the down path from heaven. The only trouble negotiating anything comes when you squash it all in a little ball and try to yo yo it up and down like a bangee. The return of Christ and Rapture are not a bungee jump. More like a seven year cruise.
So Jesus didn't land on the mount of Olives first, or go to Basra, or resurrect the tribulation saints, or anything else? You may be right, but how would you know? How would you know if He flew around to a few battlefields or something that maybe took an hour or two? Why do you yo yo folks have to squeeze everything into a moment? Doesn't He have all day on the day He returns? How do you know what He does the moment He gets back?
It started before heaven was opened and Jesus came down to earth from heaven. Now the time for fiery vengeance has come and he takes care of business. The antichrist, all enemies etc.
You assign that as the primary motive of the marriage supper. The bible does no such thing.
The problem is not in God being able to yo yo from the air to the earth and have us do the same for no apparent reason. The problem is that we have been with Him in heaven already before we returned to the earth. No yo yo ride needed. He is not returning to earth to do the mess around playing yo yo rides.
Not for the same event!
Jesus is going to give the saved nation the promised land. Not like I'd want it!
The dead aren't raptured but your question reaffirms that you don't understand why the rapture happens.
I am not mixing anything I was quoting you and asking what you were trying to say.
That is after the thousand years.
No. The thief in the night coming is the one in an unknown time. I am not one who suggests the return of Christ is after Him reigning here 1000 years already. What are you talking about?
After the 1000 years everything is burned. There is also an episode in the tribulation when the heavens appear to roll up and etc. That is another event. So be clear on what you are talking about.
I see. So by 'something' you mean hoarding food etc. OK. That is another thread.
The great shaking is a well known part of the wrath of God tribulation events. That is not anything that destroys the planet! I expect that a rapid continental shift like the one that probebaly took place in Peleg's day will occur...
Once.
One
So magic fire then, that does not burn wood. Just children and people. OK.
Never said anything of the kind.
Why would he leave if He just came?
False. He NEVER comes to earth till the return to earth. Not in the Rapture. He is up still. We go up in the Rapture, and down aganin years later when Jesus returns. That gives us time to get to know Him and others and for the marriage supper and rewards etc. We NEVER retrun to eart permanently our new home is New Jerusalem. We come on visits, even if they are working visits most of the time to earth. Your yo yo theory has people flying up into the air for less than a second for no apparent reason and back down again! Why bother? Is God unable to do thiings on the earth, so he has to snatch us up for a fraction of a second?
In the Rapture, He does return to the Father's house but with the bride He came to get! There is a reason.
No, he supposedly flies them up to the air, and then yo yos them immediately back down! A comically inept theory.
You can keep the secret then I guess since you can't seem to post it.
Hilarious, more pretending you have some secret knowledge that you just can't post! The dead in Christ do rise actually. No secret there.
No you have not. You have not explained Matthew 25 yet.
Yes, to try to change the mind of someone who is locked into a belief, is virtually impossible. We are told this would happen in Isaiah 29:9-12, in the modern, accurate translation: If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused, if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded. Be drunk, but not with wine, stagger around but not with strong drink. For the Lord has poured on you a spirit of stupor, He has closed your eyes and made the teachers ignorant.
In what way, and what do you not understand that needs explaining?
Oh like a blanket covers the little piggies? In what way does thunder cover stuff? And why does it chose to cover wheat and tares? Why does thunder not do what thunder usually does, make noise?
I see. And should we expect the plants to rule well? Keep us posted. I had thought Jesus ruled, where did I go wrong?
So how long is that day? And is the church not doing what the bible said and ruling with Jesus? Did the goats get them lost, or the thunders cover their eyes? keep us posted.
So does that mean after the thousand years? If so you may have accidentally got one right here!
Well, the bride was raptured before the tribulation. The trib saints after the trib. By then the trumpets were all done. The vials that came after the trumpets as well. So you seem to be saying there are no people alive on earth to rule? If so, who do we rule, the goats or the thunders?
I guess if you talk long enough you get something right.
The yo yo folks think that the gathering together in the air happens and then they immediately go down again. Yo yo is very appropriate.
Not clearly. Articulate or vacate.
Lazarus was raised up in his old body. We will be raised up in glorified bodies. The rule is: one body is different than the other. They are each raised up according to kind. The glorified body is different, and effectively, a new creation. The glorified body must come from Jesus in heaven.
I've never said that Jesus stopped on the way to somewhere. I've always said his return is instantaneous, like lightning.
Departed believers do not come with him to the air. Departed believers are already with him.
That is Pretrib Doctrine, which I believe is in error. Nowhere are we told in Scriptures that there is a Pretrib Rapture. That was contrived by Darby as a way of having the Church avoid what he believed was a period of divine wrath afflicting the Antichrist during the time of his reign.
Nowhere does the Scriptures define the Reign of Antichrist as "7 years." That is taken from Daniel's 70th Week. Out of all the Church Fathers only a few, like Irenaeus and Hippolytus believed that referred to Antichrist. The vast number of the Church Fathers understand the 70th Week to be the time when Messiah was "cut off." The Roman Army was the Abomination of Desolation, which followed the "70th Week."
I don't do anything. The Scriptures say the immortalization event of the saints takes place in a moment, in the "twinkling of an eye." And that event, which is called the "1st Resurrection," takes place at the 2nd Coming, when Christ comes to defeat both Satan and Antichrist. Nobody "flies around," which is your crass way of trying to make Scriptural belief look silly. It simply is what's written in Scriptures, as I see it.
I assigned the primary reason for the Marriage Supper to be a celebration of our inheritance of the earth, a celebration of the coming of the Kingdom of God to earth. It happened that it amounted to a dispossession of the earth from Satan and the Antichrist. And I'm sure that happiness factors into the celebration, as well.
The Supper lasts as long as any supper--until one is satisfied that the work has been done, and the fruit of that labor has been enjoyed. It does not last a single second, as you have repeatedly claimed is my position. I have *never* said that! I've only said the Supper *begins* the second Christ returns to earth.
This is not the 1260 days in which Antichrist reigns. It is the 1290 days in which Antiochus 4 reigned.
The above references are indeed the 3.5 years of Antichrist, as distinguished from the 1290 days of Antiochus 4's reign.
Right, but the point was that our bodies are important because they are involved in the new body. Jesus was the first to have one. His dead body was raised as the dead bodies of believers at the Rapture will be raised.
OK so if He instantly arrives on earth from heaven where does a Rapture of believers take place? It has to be in the air. Does instantly mean not so instant but He conducts the resurrection of the dead of all ages and the living believers on the way?
The dead believers are raised up. So who is it you think comes with Jesus for the Rapture?
Or not. However we are told we don't go through the period or wrath, and that we have a marriage in heaven and go to His Father's house and get rewards. We also know we return with Him to the earth. There is no other fir for the Rapture but before the wrath. All other scenarios are ruled out.
I doubt that.
And suffer they will. Those ones who are here.
No that is defined in Dan 9, the last seven year period in world history. there were 70 weeks total. One of those weeks of years (sevens) is still to come.
Great so we know what folks were wrong.
No they do not understand that. Some may have believed that unsupportable idea. Not those who knew God and the word. Paul never said any such thing or anyone else in the bible. What popes or crusaders or leaders may have thought should depend on what God said in His word. Nothing else matters. We have the bible to weigh and measure what is true or not.
Yes it does. That does not include the other events you try to stuff into it like a burrito.
No verse says that and other verse say we are not here for the wrath. They also say we go to be with Jesus and there is a marriage supper in heaven etc. They also say saints return with Him. He comes with saints when He returns to earth. He comes for the saints at the Rapture.
Yes of course we fly. Jesus rose up in the air. We will be like Him. He flies us up to the air to get our new bodies and then we can fly ourselves and we all fly to heaven. You have something against flying? Angels fly. We will too
It is over and done by the time we return to this planet. Our new home will be up there in new Jerusalem. We will be visitors when on earth. During the tribulation there will also be demons from space that are sent down to this planet. Possibly they look somewhat like aliens! Probably the government at the time will say they are! They might use them also as some sort of excuse for why millions of believers disappeared.
We will be tickled pink about it! What a great day that will be when the world is rid of demons and the Antichrist and the wicked! We will also, however already be married.
OK so you allow for a marriage supper that lasts for a while. OK. But it starts in the same microsecond as the Rapture and the return of Jesus according to you. At the ame time ans place more or less as the birds are eating the super smelly dead bodies filling the land! We were in a big hurry to get here in a flash so we could enjoy that apparently in your scheme of things
Actually Daniel asked this
That's what I said. "His dead body was raised as the dead bodies of believers at the Rapture will be raised"
I see what you are saying. However the gathering in the air is one event with more than one component. In the bible we read how that event includes the dead in Christ rising first. The Rapture affects all believers in Christ. Dead and alive. Nothing confusing at all about it. We both have our bodies raised! In the case of those who are still alive their living body is raised. Both groups are raised in a moment and both receive incorruptible bodies like Jesus has.
Jacob's two wives = YES - ABSOLUTELY - POSITIVELY TRUE
Jesus was raised up in his old body. But at the general resurrection we will *not* be a raising up in our old body.
Don't try to work out the logistical problems. We cannot engineer a trip to heaven, and a trip back to earth by plane! or by any other form of flight that we know about.
Jesus appears in heaven with all his saints. By "appearing in heaven" I mean that somehow this is a sign appearing in the sky--Jesus with all of his saints. I don't honestly know what this means, because the description says it is like lightning.
We are told we won't suffer wrath, which refers to *eternal judgment.* That is, the Saved will not suffer Damnation.
I used to believe in the "Gap Theory" about the 70th Week, but gave up on that many years ago. I couldn't sustain that belief against the claim that a "70 Weeks Period" is given as a *sequential period.* To break off the last Week, inserting a gap of over 2000 years, renders it *not* a "70 Weeks Period."
I like burritos!
No, nothing says the Marriage Supper is in heaven. That's only where the invitation is announced.
Sorry, but you seemed to be mocking "flying." We fly using planes. Our arms do not have wings. If you think our new bodies will have wings, then you certainly don't believe our old bodies will be reassembled?
That may be reality during the Millennium. The New Jerusalem may remain in heaven, and we may stay there, as well, until the Millennial Period is over.
Yes, we return with glorified bodies and somehow experience a celebration of our eternal inheritance on earth. At the same time birds will gorge themselves on the corpses of those killed in the Battle of Armageddon. What takes place among mortals will not affect those who have new glorified bodies. It will be, more or less, a celebration of victory, rather than a horrified look at bodies being eaten.
Again, my own view is that Dan 12 is a kind of summary of the book, referring to two major events already mentioned in the book. They were of particular import because Israel's future would hang in the balance with these two still-future events.
The church's tribulation starting at Pentecost is over at the Second Coming.
