The Messiah

[ScottA]

Scott-- to communicate with him, you have to think like him.

Belief in scripture does not require belief in the existence of scripture.

Or fill in the blank.... Belief in ___________ does not require belief in the existence of __________.

That's the kind of intellectual gigantism you are facing with only your slingshot.

As an atheist, he chooses to put 'God' in the blanks, but you could put "science" or "climate change" or anything you choose and it's still stupid.

All athiests have there own set of beliefs. They just don't believe they do.

 

[the.reverent.atheist]

That is because I am not trying to reason with you.

Then you have conceded defeat. I accept your surrender. Thank you.

 

[Wrangler]

So you have no actual evidence for your beliefs. That's all the Non-Christians of this Non-Christian forum need to know. Thanks.

What a nasty comment!

1st, there are mountains of evidence to believe Christ is the risen Lord. And we've touched on this once or twice before. The problem is not the lack of evidence. The problem is your standards of acceptance. Your acceptance criteria does not exist or is broken. Especially in comparison to the non-existence of support for your beliefs, yet you accept your beliefs as valid though having no actual evidence.

We don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

2nd, you are again moving the goal posts. This thread is about Textual Criticism; the relationship between the OT expectations of the Messiah and God delivering a Messiah that defied expectations. If text is the evidence you are looking for, we can talk about that. However, with a non-existent acceptance criteria:

I would characterize it as a clarification on a minor point of no significance to the big picture of what the Old Testament is about. The point of my original <RESPONSE> on this thread was to show that the Old and New Testament authors had two very different and mutually exclusive conceptions of morality, law, and what would happen at the end of time. If you can't agree with that then you and I have no chance of arriving at a common understanding of anything of substance in the Bible ... UNLESS YOU ACCEPT THE METHOD OF RECONCILIATION LAYED OUT.

A basic problem with your approach on these forums is that you lead with your closed-minded and flawed conclusions. Then you ooze crap like "If you don't agree with me then we cannot have any common understanding." What a fool you are!

Guess what? Our goal is not to understand you. Our goal is to understand God. That should be your goal. We understand God enough to believe in him and he who he sent. That you are an Atheist, be definition, means we are not going to have any chance of arriving at a common understanding of anything of substance in the Bible! You are so smug and think yourself so smart but you are a fool.

All the Non-Christians of this Non-Christian forum need to know that you assert @ScottA lacks evidence for his beliefs? You say as if you are some sort of advocate for the Anti-Christs. Guess what? We say YOU lack evidence for your beliefs. Christians and non-Christians need to know that about Atheists.

 

[Wrangler]

Things don't work the way you are intent on controlling them. You are not in control...except in your own decision making. You don't get to state the terms. This is not a discussion.

I have given you the terms.

Very well said!

 

[Wrangler]

Then you have conceded defeat. I accept your surrender. Thank you.

Paradigm:
You: A battle to win or lose.

Us: Working to save you from self-delusion and self-destruction.

 

[the.reverent.atheist]

All the Non-Christians of this Non-Christian forum need to know that you assert @ScottA lacks evidence for his beliefs? You say as if you are some sort of advocate for the Anti-Christs. Guess what? We say YOU lack evidence for your beliefs. Christians and non-Christians need to know that about Atheists.

Alright then, let's hear your answer to the question that I asked of @Behold:

Will God damn to hell any and all people who do not explicitly believe in the Cross of Christ, even if they never once in their lives had any opportunity to learn about Jesus or the Bible or Yahweh or the Cross of Christ?

Both @Behold and @ScottA said that yes, such people will be cast into hell. What say you?

 

[Behold]

Both @Behold and @ScottA said that yes, such people will be cast into hell. What say you?

Think of it like this...

Heaven is an eternal destination.

Hell is an eternal destination.

Jesus said to you....."Choose this day, where you will go, after you DIE".

"Choose to believe in Me, and Heaven is your eternal destination, after you DIE".

"Choose to die as a CHRIST Rejector, and you have chosen to NOT go to Heaven, after you die".

See that?

That is why some people who died today went to Hell today, and yesterday, and tomorrow.

 

[Mr E]

What a nasty comment!

1st, there are mountains of evidence to believe Christ is the risen Lord. And we've touched on this once or twice before. The problem is not the lack of evidence. The problem is your standards of acceptance. Your acceptance criteria does not exist or is broken. Especially in comparison to the non-existence of support for your beliefs, yet you accept your beliefs as valid though having no actual evidence.

We don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

2nd, you are again moving the goal posts. This thread is about Textual Criticism; the relationship between the OT expectations of the Messiah and God delivering a Messiah that defied expectations. If text is the evidence you are looking for, we can talk about that. However, with a non-existent acceptance criteria:


A basic problem with your approach on these forums is that you lead with your closed-minded and flawed conclusions. Then you ooze crap like "If you don't agree with me then we cannot have any common understanding." What a fool you are!

Guess what? Our goal is not to understand you. Our goal is to understand God. That should be your goal. We understand God enough to believe in him and he who he sent. That you are an Atheist, be definition, means we are not going to have any chance of arriving at a common understanding of anything of substance in the Bible! You are so smug and think yourself so smart but you are a fool.

All the Non-Christians of this Non-Christian forum need to know that you assert @ScottA lacks evidence for his beliefs? You say as if you are some sort of advocate for the Anti-Christs. Guess what? We say YOU lack evidence for your beliefs. Christians and non-Christians need to know that about Atheists.

The fool says in his heart- there is no God.

 

[ScottA]

Then you have conceded defeat. I accept your surrender. Thank you.

Nice try, but no. You have been having a discussion while I have simply been stating the truth from God which is not open for debate.

You should have been asking questions...and paying close attention.

 

[Wrangler]

Alright then, let's hear your answer to the question that I asked of @Behold:

Will God damn to hell any and all people who do not explicitly believe in the Cross of Christ, even if they never once in their lives had any opportunity to learn about Jesus or the Bible or Yahweh or the Cross of Christ?

Both @Behold and @ScottA said that yes, such people will be cast into hell. What say you?

Dude! You're lost. Lost in the weeds.

To paraphrase @Michiah-Imla, it's all about God. It's all about Jesus.

To set up a Strawman that you struggle intellectually with the application of the 3rd word of the 8th chapter of the 11th book of the Bible, is missing the point. All the Bible can be summed up in 2 words: Choose Life. There are 2 paths: one leads to life and there are all the other paths. Choose the path that leads to life. My church frequently invokes an aspect of their website, a vital outreach tool; Journey Starting Point. The Journey Starting Point is to believe in God and who he sent.

I know these words mean nothing to you; that all you want to do is create dissension. @Behold and @ScottA says, yes, what do I say? I've already told you what you need to read, understand and take into your heart and soul.

Yet, I recognize the flawed implied premise of your question. God does not damn anyone to hell. It is people - by their choices and actions - that people damn themselves. Damnation is the self-inflicted default human condition. Also, hell is merely a holding place. The Lake of Fire is where eternal annihilation happens. Having said that, my answer is that I tend to be more of a universalist. I rely on:


I will plant a new heart and new spirit inside of you. I will take out your stubborn, stony heart and give you a willing, tender heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26 (VOICE)

The story of how faith was credited to Abraham was not recorded for him and him alone, but was written for all of us who would one day be credited for having faith in God, the One who raised Jesus our Lord from the realm of the dead.
Romans 4:23-24 (VOICE)

On judgment day, their consciences will testify for them, and their thoughts will both accuse and defend them.
Roman 2:15 (VOICE)

 

[ScottA]

Alright then, let's hear your answer to the question that I asked of @Behold:

Will God damn to hell any and all people who do not explicitly believe in the Cross of Christ, even if they never once in their lives had any opportunity to learn about Jesus or the Bible or Yahweh or the Cross of Christ?

Both @Behold and @ScottA said that yes, such people will be cast into hell. What say you?

That is a lie.

I did not say any such thing. On the contrary, I gave you the truth which showed you wrong in your assumption about God.

 

[the.reverent.atheist]

That is a lie.

I did not say any such thing. On the contrary, I gave you the truth which showed you wrong in your assumption about God.

In my posting #67 I asked you:

According to @Behold it is absolutely necessary to have a specific belief in the Cross of Christ to be saved. Are you saying that @Behold is wrong?

You replied in your posting #69:

Not at all.

I took that to mean that you agreed with @Behold, who has been very clear and explicit about his beliefs.

 

[Mr E]

In my posting #67 I asked you:



You replied in your posting #69:



I took that to mean that you agreed with @Behold, who has been very clear and explicit about his beliefs.

Why don’t you be honest about yours?

What do you believe in David?

 

[Wrangler]

That is a lie.

I did not say any such thing. On the contrary, I gave you the truth which showed you wrong in your assumption about God.

His Strawman is to leverage difference denominations and denominational doctrines.
P1. If Christians are truly led by the same Holy Spirit, there will be no disagreement on anything.
P2. Christians have many disagreements.
C1. We are not led by the same Spirit.
C2. There is no God.

He is in denial, asserting that we are saved by our doctrines. 1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly. And were were given different Spiritual gifts. He is self-deceived. Of course, he is lying - primarily to himself.

 

[ScottA]

In my posting #67 I asked you:



You replied in your posting #69:



I took that to mean that you agreed with @Behold, who has been very clear and explicit about his beliefs.

That explains your lack of comprehension.

You asked if I agreed. I answered, "Not at all."

Now you say you "took that to mean I agree."

 

[the.reverent.atheist]

Having said that, my answer is that I tend to be more of a universalist. I rely on:

I will plant a new heart and new spirit inside of you. I will take out your stubborn, stony heart and give you a willing, tender heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26 (VOICE)

That excerpt is part of a longer narration beginning in Ezekiel 36:22 which starts as follows:

Therefore say to the house of Israel:
(Ezekiel 36:22, NRSVue)

The passage you cited was specifically addressed to the nation of Israel, not to the people of the world generally.

Are you suggesting that this passage really means that God will plant a "new heart and new spirit" inside every person on planet earth who ever has lived or will live in the future? Because if that's how you're expecting me to read that passage there have been literally billions of people who lived on this planet in the past who have shown absolutely no awareness whatsoever of the resurrection of Jesus, or the Bible, or Yahweh, or of the Cross of Christ. If specific knowledge of any of those items is a requirement for salvation as @Behold insists, then I say your God is a tyrant who has set up literally billions of people to have absolutely no chance to earn eternal life. But if instead you mean that a person merely needs to be pure of heart to earn salvation, well that's definitely not what @Behold said.

 

[the.reverent.atheist]

That explains your lack of comprehension.

You asked if I agreed. I answered, "Not at all."

Now you say you "took that to mean I agree."

No, I didn't ask if you agreed. My exact words were: "Are you saying that @Behold is wrong?"

And you responded "Not at all," meaning that you did not think that @Behold is wrong.

 

[Behold]

But if instead you mean that a person merely needs to be pure of heart to earn salvation, well that's definitely not what @Behold said.

Reader,

If you could earn Salvation, then Jesus didn't need to die on the Cross, for our sin.

 

[Wrangler]

The passage you cited was specifically addressed to the nation of Israel, not to the people of the world generally.

Again, lost in the weeds. This is what you get out of my post? Willfully ignorant, obtuse reading comprehension because you are at war, constantly trying to figure out how the Bible is wrong and how people who accept the Bible are wrong WHEN you should be trying to figure out how it and we are correct.

YHWH is talking to the prophet Ezekiel, specifically. He told the prophet to speak the words of YHWH to the house of Israel generally.

I will plant a new heart and new spirit inside of you. I will take out your stubborn, stony heart and give you a willing, tender heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26 (VOICE)

Not sure where you get the idea that the words of God are only for a subset of people unless specifically stated to apply to the world. It is the opposite, his words are for all UNLESS he specifically says they apply to a subgroup. You might infer the most limiting interpretation is YHWH's words apply to 'God's chosen people' if they do not apply to all. Here, "you" is personal - to all individually.

A specific example of more limited applicability is the 10 Commandments. Another example of this is the conquest of Canaan regarding who is to be slaughtered.

 

[ScottA]

No, I didn't ask if you agreed. My exact words were: "Are you saying that @Behold is wrong?"

And you responded "Not at all," meaning that you did not think that @Behold is wrong.

That's what you get when you pit one against another.

To be clear...I do not specifically "agree" with @Behold, but I was "not at all" saying he is wrong. This confusion is yours. My point was that you misunderstand the issue and therefore are assuming something wrong about something you have wrongly assumed. Perhaps it would help if I address your wrong assumption, here below, as they are both rooted in the same wrong assumption:

Are you suggesting that this passage really means that God will plant a "new heart and new spirit" inside every person on planet earth who ever has lived or will live in the future? Because if that's how you're expecting me to read that passage there have been literally billions of people who lived on this planet in the past who have shown absolutely no awareness whatsoever of the resurrection of Jesus, or the Bible, or Yahweh, or of the Cross of Christ. If specific knowledge of any of those items is a requirement for salvation as @Behold insists, then I say your God is a tyrant who has set up literally billions of people to have absolutely no chance to earn eternal life. But if instead you mean that a person merely needs to be pure of heart to earn salvation, well that's definitely not what @Behold said.

You are assuming all of this can be explained or understood by the terms of this world and your own understanding, but they cannot. The error of this kind of assumption, is that being faced with something greatly more complex than all of human/worldly existence--you foolishly thought to apply an equally lessor form of logic to understanding it. And as a result, you have failed. Your popsicle stick of knowledge has you on your backside holding your popsicle stick blaming everyone but yourself for your foolish attempt--including the Elephant you thought to attack.

But I am not here just to put you in your place.

The problem is that your logic and assumption are along the lines or terms of time, which do not apply to the situation of God and salvation. Your disbelief and rejection is based on the truths stated in the Bible and here on this thread, because of a "past" and a "future" which exist in your own little world, but do not apply to God. Take away those "past" and "future" stumbling blocks, and you don't have an argument. --There, I have given you the keys. But go ahead--make your argument without those worldly terms!

Let's see how you fare.