The Covering Dynamic
- Thread starter David in NJ
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I don't think so, that's not me. But no matter, my only interest is that we can have a good clean discussion.
Much love!
Humility provides the covering so that we don't trample others in our zeal.
Much love!
So then you don't see two gatherings here? One of the "chosen", and one of "nations"?
Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Isn't this a simply sequence of events? He comes in glory with His holy angels. He sits upon His throne of glory. All nations shall be gathered before Him. He separates them as a shepherd separates the sheep and goats.
This seems like a simple prophetic narrative. Why would we change the sequence?
Regarding His coming to the earth itself, I'm curious, If this isn't Jesus in His coming in power and glory, who is it?
Zechariah 14:3-4 KJV
3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
If Jesus doesn't come to earth, where is He when He comes in power and glory?
Much love!
No explicit timing statement for the rapture is given in the Scriptures of any kind. Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture, it is the regathering of Israel to her promised land as prophesied many times in the Bible.
If you accept the exact words of these prophecies, that is the only conclusion you can reach. It just is! I'll walk you though it if you like, as I am endeavoring with Spiritual Israelite.
Much love!
Here's another. Do non-pre-tribbers accept this passage exactly as written?
Revelation 7:2-8 KJV
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Do you?
Much love!
Revelation 7:2-8 KJV
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Do you?
Much love!
Elijah's ministry according to both Jesus and Malachi will be to prepare the people for the Lord. The two witnesses are killed and ascend to heaven, meanwhile Elijah is helping the bride to become ready for her bridegroom.
Much love!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
These are things that no other pre-trib in the world believes, so I'm not going to waste time just addressing the beliefs you have all to yourself.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
All the people are gathered at once, so I would not describe it as two gatherings. But, obviously, the people are separated into two groups.
What are you talking about exactly? What is the sequence that you're seeing there?
If we start discussing Zechariah 14 then we might end up spending a ton of time just on that and will probably never get around to discussing anything else. Is that what you want? Just let me know. There are things written in Zechariah 14 that seem impossible to reconcile with other scripture if it's all meant to be understood literally and as all occurring after Christ returns.
In my post-trib, Amillennialist view Jesus descends from heaven "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31), the dead in Christ are resurrected, we're all changed (1 Cor 15:51-52) and we are all caught up to meet Him in the air. He then proceeds to destroy all of His enemies (all unbelievers) on the earth (Matt 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18, Rev 20:9).
This doesn't leave any mortals on the earth to populate an earthly millennial kingdom. So, I believe the next thing to occur is that dead unbelievers are resurrected and then the judgment occurs. According to Revelation 20:11, the judgment does not occur in heaven or on earth.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
So, where does it occur? We're not told. It could be on the new earth or it could be in some location that we are not currently aware of.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where are the "exact words" in Matthew 24:31 which say that it's "the regathering of Israel to her promised land"?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
According to Jesus, the Elijah to come that was prophesied in Malachi was John the Baptist.
Matthew 11:11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Matthew 17:10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
Do you accept these passages exactly as written which is something you put a strong emphasis on? If so, then you should agree with Jesus that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come. The disciples understood that. So should we. As it says in Luke 1:17, John the Baptist came "in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord".
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There are only two kinds of people at the gathering. They are the sheep on Christ's right or the goats on His left. This is inclusive of ALL the nations that have ever existed or ever shall exist upon the face of the earth throughout time. Those on His right hand are blessed of the Lord, and receive the Kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world. Those on His left hand are told "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" When we consider the whole context of Matthew we find those on His right hand are those who in their lifetimes who have done good, and those on His left hand are those who throughout their lifetimes have done evil. When all mankind is gathered before God in judgment we shall be either the righteous on His right hand, or the wicked on His left. There is no other separation between the chosen for eternal life, and the nations who remain in unbelief.
The prophetic words of Zechariah are either already fulfilled when Christ came to earth a man, and will be finished when Christ returns on the last day of this age when the seventh angel sounds that time given this earth shall be no longer. Why are you still looking for Christ to come to the earth, when Scripture tells us Christ has already come in His day/age/time/era?
Zechariah 14:1-4 (KJV) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
When Christ came to earth a man, He came in great power. His power is clearly demonstrated through His ability to heal, cast out demons, and resurrect the dead. His power on earth was most clearly seen by His perfect sinless life as a human, His victory over sin by His cross, and His power over Satan and death by His physical resurrection.
His glory too was manifested to the earth, when the angels display the glory of the Lord when our Saviour, which is Christ the Lord was born. The fullness of His glory will be manifested unto the whole earth once again when the seventh angel sounds and Christ comes again.
Luke 2:8-14 (KJV) And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
If the discussion isn't in pursuit of serving each other through love, then what are we doing here?
We are either building each other up, through loving interactions in our search for understanding, sharing our spiritual gifts with each other, or we are tearing each other down, through prideful challenges, through negative opinions, through bad theology insisted upon as truth. Or even good theology, but not in the right Spirit.
Much love!
NIV? That's going to be a problem. To many "loose" and interpretive translations.
Matthew 17:10-12 KJV
10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Elijah's ministry is not complete. "Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things." Did he? Restore all things? Or did they kill him first?
Malachi 4:5-6 KJV
5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Do you think God will fulfill this prophecy concerning Elijah?
To me this is the same lines as with Jesus Himself. They killed John, and they killed Jesus. Had they received Jesus as Messiah, they would have accepted John as the bridegroom, preparing the bride.
Just like Jesus. He did come, and they killed Him. He's coming again, and will be wed to His bride. Elijah, in John the Baptist, he was sent from God, and they killed him. He will be sent again, and will prepare the bride.
He shall come, and he has come, Jesus said both of these. The NIV kind of obscures that. I find that to be the case in that translation in many places, so I don't use it. I prefer the more literal translations, not interpretive.
"shall restore all things" is from a Future Tense verb, still yet to happen, even though John the Baptist was already dead.
And yes, I believe that exactly as written. Do you?
Much love!
I can only speak for myself! I am here to prove biblical doctrine by hopefully allowing the Bible to be its own dictionary. Sadly these discussions often devolve into bad attitudes when it is shown the doctrinal pov one holds cannot be biblically supported because some doctrines do not come from the Bible, but are pre-conceived opinions read into the Bible. But yes, I do agree, the pursuit of biblical truth should be an exercise in love toward one another.
Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
They see Him coming, and He sends His angels to gather the chosen.
He sits on His throne, and all the nations are gathered. Are you saying this is actually one gathering, without the intervening "sitting on His throne"?
In one gathering identified as "the chosen", the other, "the nations", this speak to you the same people?
What would His Jewish audience think He meant when He spoke of the "chosen", and the "nations"?
Much love!
Are you familiar with the many OT prophecies concerning the regathering of Israel to the promised land?
Much love!
I fully agree, I endeavor to let the Bible be it's own dictionary and commentary.
And errors don't even need to be preconceive, just a misunderstanding of a passage.
But especially, I love the way you say it,
the pursuit of biblical truth should be an exercise in love toward one another.
Amen and Amen!!!
Much love!
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
As an idealist of course you don't see the point. Paul clearly pointed out the reality of his generation, and idealism does not always work out in reality. Then you get offended when we say you are being offensive. The ideal result is that the Jews and Gentiles would equally join hands and get along with each other in Christ.
But Paul pointed out that the Jews were branches cut off, and that the fulness of the Gentiles would come in. Not that the Gentiles had a seperate relationship with God. You are missing the point that the Jews would be blinded and have a harder time, just like the Gentiles were formerly blinded and had a hard time in the OT. Not that it was totally impossible for both since Abraham until now. The connection in the OT was physical because it revolved around the economy of the Law. But salvation, grace , and faith have never changed since God punished Adam and Eve. The working out of Salvation was now internal and individual, instead of corporate and outward.
It is called the Gentile church because Israel is blind, just like it was the Israel church in the OT, because the Gentiles were blind. Both could enter freely at all times. If the Gentile church today referred to Israel as dogs like the Jews considered Gentiles to be in Paul's day, the admonition would still be the same, that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles. No one should be looked down upon as a dog.
The point about no difference between Jews and Gentiles was not something new, God introduced as a phenomenon. That was a reprimand to those who think they see a distinction when none exists. We can call it the Gentile church without distinction, if you can call the church spiritual Israel without distinction, since Jacob. The church was never about a physical dead flesh connection. It was how God had a relationship with those willing to "crucify" Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The church has always been a Gentile harvest. Israel was supposed to change the world. They had their ups and downs. Israel was the caretaker of the field. Now all have been made caretakers. But there was never a distinction in who the harvest was.
As an idealist you miss the point in this verse:
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
Is that not the nation of Gentiles? Not a nation of specific Gentiles. Jesus said it would be taken from Israel and given to Gentiles. You call that spiritual Israel. I just see that as now Gentiles are the caretakers not just Israel. Thus a Gentile church, no longer of Israel. But as caretakers, not the harvest. The harvest has always been both Israel and Gentiles.
The prophet Malachi, like the prophet Zechariah foretell of the coming of the Lord. The words written by the prophets began to be fulfilled when Christ came to earth a man. John-the-Baptist is the messenger the prophet writes would come to usher in the coming Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is not just one day, but is the whole Messianic age of God's grace. The age for spiritually building the Kingdom of God as the Church on earth is sent out with the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit. The Day of the Lord began with His first advent, and will not end until Christ comes again on the final Day of the Lord when the last trumpet sounds.
Malachi 3:1-2 (KJV) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 4:1-6 (KJV) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
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