The Covering Dynamic

[marks]

marks,

i am so glad you asked this question as it is a perfect example of a man-made covering over the mind.

There is no such thing as a 'gentile church' before God = see Post 79

And not seeing the distinctions between Isreal and the Gentiles and God's plans for each is failing to rightly divide Scripture, and requires not taking seriously quite a number of passages written, and is a covering over the mind preventing one from seeing truth, if we are putting it that way. Of course this is speaking in your terms, I would describe this differently.

I only say this to show the emptiness of this argument. Anyone can say it of anyone, with or without accuracy, it doesn't add to understanding.

I guarantee you as we discuss this to a conclusion, if we are able to do so, we will reach any number of passages where I will say I am going by the plain meaning of a passage, and you will tell me it actually means something different, that it is allegorical or metaphorical or something.

I've done this for years and years and it always ends the same way. Well, that's not exactly true! Sometimes it's me that realizes I'm not taking a passage fully seriously for what it says, in which case I've changed my ideas on things.

I've debated this matter for a long time, and that's how it is.

Do you believe "All Israel" will be saved, that is, all living Jews when Jesus returns? I'm curious.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No, there wouldn't be.

And besides . . . selecting a portion of the Bible, and declaring that since it doesn't mention such and such, then it's not true, that's making an argument from silence. It's the same thing as proving a negative. It doesn't work, it's not valid.

Much love!

@David in NJ

Are you familiar with Logical Fallacies, and the importance of understanding and avoiding them?

 

[marks]

Biblical terminology of 'coverings' begins in Genesis when Adam & Eve sinned.

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

This is of unbelievers, isn't it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Truth of 'coverings' over the minds of both the unsaved and saved is everywhere in the Holy Scriptures beginning in Genesis.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter." - Psalm 25:2

The kings can search out the matter.

And the Holy Spirit reveals truth to us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So it was, when the man of God saw her afar off, that he said to his servant Gehazi, “Look, the Shunammite woman! Please run now to meet her, and say to her, ‘Is it well with you? Is it well with your husband? Is it well with the child?’ ”
And she answered, “It is well.” Now when she came to the man of God at the hill, she caught him by the feet, but Gehazi came near to push her away. But the man of God said, “Let her alone; for her soul is in deep distress, and the Lord has hidden it from me, and has not told me.” 2 Kings 4:25-27

Using a narrative event of something that happened and making it a rule for all who follow?

Actually as I think about this, considering God's commitment to His children, He's not closing our minds, He's opening them. He reveals truth to us. He's not trying to hide truth from His children.

I've come to a conclusion about the rapture that is a result of prayer and study for many years. I've found an understanding that lacks the conflicts and contradictions of all the other (mainstream) views. It's an understanding that allows me to read all the relevant passages of the Bible for EXACTLY what they say.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Just like us who are His children, He teaches, He reveals.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. - 1 Cor 13:12

So true! We can apply this to many things. But saying this as a reason why someone disagrees with you isn't in my mind good form.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

And not seeing the distinctions between Isreal and the Gentiles and God's plans for each is failing to rightly divide Scripture, and requires not taking seriously quite a number of passages written, and is a covering over the mind preventing one from seeing truth, if we are putting it that way. Of course this is speaking in your terms, I would describe this differently.

I only say this to show the emptiness of this argument. Anyone can say it of anyone, with or without accuracy, it doesn't add to understanding.

I guarantee you as we discuss this to a conclusion, if we are able to do so, we will reach any number of passages where I will say I am going by the plain meaning of a passage, and you will tell me it actually means something different, that it is allegorical or metaphorical or something.

I've done this for years and years and it always ends the same way. Well, that's not exactly true! Sometimes it's me that realizes I'm not taking a passage fully seriously for what it says, in which case I've changed my ideas on things.

I've debated this matter for a long time, and that's how it is.

Do you believe "All Israel" will be saved, that is, all living Jews when Jesus returns? I'm curious.

Much love!

marks you rambled off here with human conjecture superseding the Gospel.

The issue is NOT the distinction between Israel of the flesh and Gentiles of the flesh.

God has concluded them BOTH under sin and separated from God for all eternity outside of Christ.

The GOSPEL only permits One Body of Christ = Jew & Gentile

There is no such thing as a 'gentile' church before God just as there is no such thing as a 'pre-trib' rapture.

Please go to Galatians and Ephesians for understanding that there is only One Body, One Spirit, One Lord, One access to the Father.

 

[David in NJ]

Using a narrative event of something that happened and making it a rule for all who follow?

Actually as I think about this, considering God's commitment to His children, He's not closing our minds, He's opening them. He reveals truth to us. He's not trying to hide truth from His children.

I've come to a conclusion about the rapture that is a result of prayer and study for many years. I've found an understanding that lacks the conflicts and contradictions of all the other (mainstream) views. It's an understanding that allows me to read all the relevant passages of the Bible for EXACTLY what they say.

Much love!

pre-trib rapture is man-made and not a single verse in the entire Scripture that declares it.

Which is why those who believe in it cannot find a single 'pre-trib' prophecy or declaration.

pre-trib is a covering you have chosen to wrap your mind with and therefore you choose not agree with "it is written" = Matt ch24/etc

Your covering is based on research approved by men for men but not approved by God for His People.

pre-trib is a 'covering' of the mind for those who believe it but it cannot be found in scripture unless man adds his words upon God's.

 

[David in NJ]

So true! We can apply this to many things. But saying this as a reason why someone disagrees with you isn't in my mind good form.

Much love!

People who disagree with Genesis thru Revelation is the reason for their chosen coverings.

"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God" - Matt 4:4

 

[David in NJ]

Just like us who are His children, He teaches, He reveals.

Much love!

HE only reveals One Truth and HE never spoke of 'pre-trib' rapture.

"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" - Matt 4:4

 

[marks]

People who disagree with Genesis thru Revelation is the reason for their chosen coverings.

You aren't seeing what I'm saying.

"People who disagree with ____________ do so because they've chosen to be "covered". Just anyone can say that about just anyone.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why didn't He just have a large bird pick Jonah up from the docks and deposit him on the wall of Ninaveh? Do you see what I'm saying here?

No, not really.

This is all a bunch of sophistry to me, why this, why not that, the thing I care about is the Bible teaching. We can go in circles all day over our speculations of why and why not.

It seems you are just trying to get around or dismiss a weakness I have shown in your view. You apparently think that there is no reason at all why we would meet Jesus in the air instead of just meeting Him in heaven if that's where we're going to end up.

But, there is a reason since Jesus always has reasons for what He does. And the reason is that after we are caught up to meet Him in the air He will then send "sudden destruction" down upon His enemies from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). Obviously, it wouldn't make sense to leave us on the earth while that is happening. Also, we meet Him in the air at that point instead of going to heaven because what follows that is the judgment which will not take place in heaven or on earth (Revelation 20:11).

See how easy that was for me to explain why we will meet Him in the air? And you have no explanation at all. I'm not surprised that you would want to try to dismiss this as being insignificant. But, I don't buy it.

As far as I'm concerned, we're just at the beginning of our discussion, and already you are saying things like, You haven't answered my question so you must not have an answer so you must be wrong. To me, that's not valid.

You haven't given any indication that you would ever answer the question. Are you saying you do have an answer to the question?

I've not answered these speculation questions because I'm trying to establish that human speculations of God's intents and reasoning when not revealed by God is pointless to understanding doctrine.

No, you haven't answered because you don't have an answer. Why not just admit that? Also, it's not pointless. Meeting Him in the air is part of what will happen at that point so if you have no explanation for why that will happen then it makes your whole theory questionable.

We will all have our opinions, but the real matter is, what does the Bible say, not, what can we fill in about what it doesn't say.

It says we will meet Him in the air. It won't be for no reason. So, you shouldn't act as if it doesn't matter what the reason is. It does. The reason for it should line up with your doctrine. It does in my case.

I have lots of thoughts on this topic, lots of information from the Scriptures, and I've posted here as tiny tiny part of it so far. Be patient! And no presuming. If this conversation is something you want to do.

Yes, but you haven't given the impression that you would ever have an answer to the question before. But, if you just need more time to give it, then that's fine with me. There's no rush.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure thing!

I'm not interested in these kinds of personal derogatory statements. This kind of discussion already has it's difficulties, add this in, that just makes it worse.

I'm not here to talk about me, or your negative opinions of me, which you seem to feel free to freely share.

It was not intended as a personal insult. Please stop being so sensitive on a forum where debate is expected. My point was that you were confused about what I was saying, which is true. It happens. It's nothing personal. And then I proceeded to explain what you were confused about and showed you what I meant.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But why didn't He do it a different way?

Hm?

This is the kind of question you are asking.

No, it isn't. That would only be the case if the main thing God was doing was bringing Jonah to a certain location, but having him swallowed by a big fish along the way for no apparent reason first. But, that obviously wasn't the case.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What you see is that I haven't written an answer to your question because I question it's validity towards determining doctrine, where you see to feel it has a place.

That I haven't written an answer, and whether or not I have an answer, you must realize these are two different things.

One of my chief complaints in these kinds of discussions is a lack of attention to these sorts of things, whether it's my posts, or Scripture. It's just not a logical reasonable approach.

SI: Here's my question . . .

M: I don't think it's a proper question.

SI: Oh, then you don't know!

That's non-sequitor, a logical fallacy, and does anyone care?

I obviously disagree that it's a logical fallacy. Yes, people care because people like to know why things will happen so that those things make sense. It figures that someone like you wouldn't care since you have no explanation for it.

Why take on the challenge of determining how it can fit with your doctrine when you can just easily dismiss it instead, right? God forbid that you ever take on a challenge to your doctrine. We're supposed to just believe things, not have any explanations for what we believe or have any ability to back up what we believe, right? Or not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I understand that. You are asking me Why did God do/not do . . .

And you'll rate my speculative answer according to your speculative answer and what will be accomplished?

If you at least had a plausible answer then that would help support your beliefs. But, having no answer at all reveals a weakness in your belief. That's how I see it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

marks,

i am so glad you asked this question as it is a perfect example of a man-made covering over the mind.

There is no such thing as a 'gentile church' before God = see Post 79

Exactly. This is one of the many reasons why pre-trib dispensationalism is a terrible belief system. They make up things that are not taught in scripture anywhere. There is no Gentile church. The NT repeatedly speaks of how the church consists of Jew and Gentile believers brought together as one body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And not seeing the distinctions between Isreal and the Gentiles and God's plans for each is failing to rightly divide Scripture,

All I can do is just shake my head.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've come to a conclusion about the rapture that is a result of prayer and study for many years.

So have I. And I'm sure so has David in NJ. Yet, he and I disagree with you completely on the timing of the rapture. So, are we praying and studying harder than you or are you praying and studying harder than us? Or is there more to it than that? I vote for the latter.

I've found an understanding that lacks the conflicts and contradictions of all the other (mainstream) views. It's an understanding that allows me to read all the relevant passages of the Bible for EXACTLY what they say.

What does this even mean? What passages do you think post-tribs are not reading for EXACTLY what they say? Do you read a passage like Matthew 24:29-31 for exactly what it says? Where are the passages in the Bible that say the rapture will occur before the tribulation?