...

[RLT63]

Again, how was it betrayal when it was foreordained?

Luk 22:53 - Day after day when I was with you in the temple courts, you did not arrest me. But this is your hour, and that of the power of darkness!"

You need to ask Jesus he’s the one that said it.

 

[Patrick1966]

Ideas that Satan and his angels can be saved do not originate from The Word of God...

Are Satan and the "fallen" angels doing exactly as God intended?

 

[Patrick1966]

Mat 26:24 - The Son of man goeth as it is written of-him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Notice he didn't say that it would be better if Judas never existed.

 

[RLT63]

Notice he didn't say that it would be better if Judas never existed.

If he hadn’t been born he wouldn’t have existed. I see no difference.

 

[Patrick1966]

If he hadn’t been born he wouldn’t have existed. I see no difference.

Ecclesiastes 6:3
A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.

 

[RLT63]

Ecclesiastes 6:3
A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.

???

 

[Patrick1966]

???

Again, God is telling us that, sometimes, it's better for a person to be born dead than it is to live a life and then be dishonored or, in the case of Judas, potentially subjected to the Lake of Fire.

In neither verse did God say that it would be better if they did not exist. In the end, ALL people will be with God.

 

[ButterflyJones]

You need to ask Jesus he’s the one that said it.

I agree. And no need to ask Jesus already told us Judas was predestined to his task.

"Go and do what you must do."

Man makes his plans but God sets his steps.

 

[Davy]

Are Satan and the "fallen" angels doing exactly as God intended?

You don't understand. Study the Book of Isaiah where God reveals some deeper matters of how He 'uses' Satan, and allows Satan to work.

Because Satan tried to exalt himself in place of God, coveting God's Throne, and especially at a time when God had exalted him in His Garden of Eden in the old world prior to his rebellion, that sealed Satan's sentencing into the future "lake of fire", along with those angels that rebelled with him (see Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 & 31).

Satan is who originally brought sin and rebellion into existence, in the old world prior to Adam and Eve (1 John 3:8). And for this reason Jesus Christ was foreordained before the foundation of this world to be born in the flesh like us and die on His cross to offer the remission of sins of those who believe, and thus defeat both death and the devil.

And beginning with Cain murdering his brother Abel, Satan's attempt to prevent Christ's birth through the Seed of the Woman began, even down to the time of king Herod, a converted Jew born of Esau, that commanded all firstborn males to be killed in hopes of including baby Jesus.

By those actions written in God's Word done by Satan's servants, we can see those machinations to murder Christ were definitely NOT DESIGNED BY GOD HIMSELF.

Thus you are treading very dangerous ground with trying to make it look like GOD Himself has been moving Satan directly against Him and His Son. Instead, God has had to STEP IN and protect His chosen elect that Christ would be born through.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Again, how was it betrayal when it was foreordained?

It was not "foreordained" as much as it was "foreknown" by an Omniscient God who has the ability to know the future as he knows the past.
A lot of prophesy recorded long before it happened, was predicted by God, rather than being caused by him, (because of God's foreknowledge.) God did not plan what his free willed children would do, but he could know it so as to warn his servants in advance of the outcome of any course of action that was against his laws or principles. Like James states.....
"Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you meet with various trials, 3 knowing as you do that this tested quality of your faith produces endurance. 4 But let endurance complete its work, so that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything."

Trials are character building, so we have the opportunity to benefit from the past experiences of others which are recorded in scripture.
Judas knew what Christ taught about honesty and greed, but given the responsibility of looking after the group's finances brought out the worst traits in Judas.....and he became a thief.

James went on to say....
"13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile,* gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death."

This was Judas' path, followed to the letter.
Because of prophesy, Jesus knew that one of his close associates would betray him, but in the beginning, he did not know who it was going to be. It wasn't until Judas began to manifest the traits of greed for financial gain, that Jesus was made aware of what would be his undoing. Luke says that satan emboldened Judas to carry out his betrayal. (Luke 22:3-6)

Luk 22:53 - Day after day when I was with you in the temple courts, you did not arrest me. But this is your hour, and that of the power of darkness!"

In context Luke 22:47-53 says...
"While he was still speaking, look! a crowd, and the man called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them, and he approached Jesus to kiss him. 48 But Jesus said to him: “Judas, are you betraying the Son of man with a kiss?” 49 When those around him saw what was going to happen, they said: “Lord, should we strike with the sword?” 50 One of them even struck the slave of the high priest, taking off his right ear. 51 But in reply Jesus said: “That is enough.” And he touched the ear and healed him. 52 Jesus then said to the chief priests and captains of the temple and elders who had come there for him: “Did you come out with swords and clubs as against a robber? 53 While I was with you in the temple day after day, you did not lay your hands on me. But this is your hour and the authority of darkness.”

That "hour" of their "authority of darkness" was addressed to the chief priests and the elders and others whom Judas led to identify their target. It all fulfilled prophesy.

Judas cannot be forgiven because he sinned against the holy spirit....
Matt 10:1...."So he summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, in order to expel these and to cure every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity."
He participated in acts under the power of holy spirit, and so betrayed more that just Jesus. He is "the son of perdition" (John 17:12)...."perdition" or "destruction" is "apōleia" which Strongs defines as...."actively, a destroying, utter destruction." Judas will never be seen again, and his suicide proves that he knew he was unforgivable.

 

[Patrick1966]

Thus you are treading very dangerous ground with trying to make it look like GOD Himself has been moving Satan directly against Him and His Son.

Isaiah 45:7

King James Version

​

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

[Patrick1966]

Satan is who originally brought sin and rebellion into existence,

And is doing exactly what God created him to be and do. In the end, I believe that Satan will be purified and that he too will worship God in the new Earth.

Why do I believe that?

Revelation 20:10
Young's Literal Translation
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

 

[Davy]

Isaiah 45:7​

​

King James Version​

​

​

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Like I said, you don't yet understand. But you're definitely not alone in that.

Now about that Isaiah 45:7 verse, with that idea that God creates evil and darkness:
One needs to understand enough of God's Word to realize that Satan sinned from the beginning (1 John 3:8), even before Adam and Eve did. In that old world, prior to Satan's rebellion, there was no sin, until Satan sinned in coveting God's Throne for himself, wanting to be The GOD (Ezekiel 28 as symbolic for Satan when he was 'perfect in thy ways' when God first created him.)

By the time of Adam and Eve in God's Garden, Satan had already rebelled, and was established as the adversary against Christ and man. Satan caused sin to enter in, and he is the cause of God ending that old world prior to Adam and Eve. So The Father ordained His Son to die on the cross, and brought this 2nd world earth age which is in bondage to corruption (Romans 8:18-25; 2 Peter 3).

Therefore, God USES evil for THIS PRESENT 2ND WORLD EARTH AGE, and it does not mean GOD was the original author of that evil. Satan is the original author of evil, when he first rebelled against God, coveting God's throne in that old world. Isaiah 10 with God pointing to Satan as His punishing rod is a further example of how God uses 'evil' to punish the rebellious during this present 2nd world earth age...


In Isaiah 10, God uses the title "the Assyrian" as a symbolic title for Satan. That's not the only Scripture where God uses that kind of idea. In it, God says the Assyrian is His "rod of Mine anger". Thus God simply is using Satan during this present world as a 'punishing rod' upon the rebellious and wicked.

Beyond 1 Corinthians 10:13, God protects His elect from Satan's attempts to destroy them. For those who rebel against God, He allows Satan to punish them.

That Isaiah 10 Scripture then shows that when God's work is done for this present world, then He will destroy Satan. So God is merely using Satan against the sinner and rebellious. And just like parents that break off a tree branch to be used as a whipping stick, when they are done using they throw that stick into the fire. God will do the same with Satan in final.

 

[Patrick1966]

Satan is who originally brought sin and rebellion into existence,

And is doing exactly what God created him to be and do. In the end, I believe that Satan will be purified and that he too will worship God in the new Earth.

Why do I believe that?

Like I said, you don't yet understand. But you're definitely not alone in that.

Now about that Isaiah 45:7 verse, with that idea that God creates evil and darkness:
One needs to understand enough of God's Word to realize that Satan sinned from the beginning (1 John 3:8), even before Adam and Eve did. In that old world, prior to Satan's rebellion, there was no sin, until Satan sinned in coveting God's Throne for himself, wanting to be The GOD (Ezekiel 28 as symbolic for Satan when he was 'perfect in thy ways' when God first created him.)

By the time of Adam and Eve in God's Garden, Satan had already rebelled, and was established as the adversary against Christ and man. Satan caused sin to enter in, and he is the cause of God ending that old world prior to Adam and Eve. So The Father ordained His Son to die on the cross, and brought this 2nd world earth age which is in bondage to corruption (Romans 8:18-25; 2 Peter 3).

Therefore, God USES evil for THIS PRESENT 2ND WORLD EARTH AGE, and it does not mean GOD was the original author of that evil. Satan is the original author of evil, when he first rebelled against God, coveting God's throne in that old world. Isaiah 10 with God pointing to Satan as His punishing rod is a further example of how God uses 'evil' to punish the rebellious during this present 2nd world earth age...


In Isaiah 10, God uses the title "the Assyrian" as a symbolic title for Satan. That's not the only Scripture where God uses that kind of idea. In it, God says the Assyrian is His "rod of Mine anger". Thus God simply is using Satan during this present world as a 'punishing rod' upon the rebellious and wicked.

Beyond 1 Corinthians 10:13, God protects His elect from Satan's attempts to destroy them. For those who rebel against God, He allows Satan to punish them.

That Isaiah 10 Scripture then shows that when God's work is done for this present world, then He will destroy Satan. So God is merely using Satan against the sinner and rebellious. And just like parents that break off a tree branch to be used as a whipping stick, when they are done using they throw that stick into the fire. God will do the same with Satan in final.

Thanks my brother. I think that God uses Satan as a part of our development. For instance, God permitted Satan to torment "Job" as he permits Satan to do to all people. God created Satan with the full knowledge of everything he would do. None of what Satan does is a surprise to God.

 

[Davy]

And is doing exactly what God created him to be and do. In the end, I believe that Satan will be purified and that he too will worship God in the new Earth.

You drawn a wrong conclusion about God having created Satan to be evil.

In the following, the king of Tyrus (rock) is put as symbolic for Satan himself...

Ezek 28:12-19
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Per those verses in red, God is not talking about the flesh king of Tyrus. He is pointing directly to Satan, originally an "anointed cherub". A cherub is a Heavenly created being, not a flesh being. And God shows there that cherub was originally in His Garden of Eden. No flesh king of Tyrus ever as been in Eden, so that's yet another way here we know God is merely using the "king of Tyrus" as a symbol for Satan. (also, the word Tyrus means 'rock'; per Deut.32:31, the little "rock" is pointing to Satan. God is our ROCK.)

God says there He originally created Satan perfect in his ways. So NO, God did not originally created evil nor darkness, Satan did when iniquity was found in him.


16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
KJV

That pronounced sentence of destruction by God in the fire, is also another way to know He is pointing to Satan. It's because no flesh king has been judged and sentenced to perish by fire in the future yet. But Satan and his angels already have been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire".

 

[Patrick1966]

You drawn a wrong conclusion about God having created Satan to be evil.

In the following, the king of Tyrus (rock) is put as symbolic for Satan himself...

Ezek 28:12-19
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Per those verses in red, God is not talking about the flesh king of Tyrus. He is pointing directly to Satan, originally an "anointed cherub". A cherub is a Heavenly created being, not a flesh being. And God shows there that cherub was originally in His Garden of Eden. No flesh king of Tyrus ever as been in Eden, so that's yet another way here we know God is merely using the "king of Tyrus" as a symbol for Satan. (also, the word Tyrus means 'rock'; per Deut.32:31, the little "rock" is pointing to Satan. God is our ROCK.)

God says there He originally created Satan perfect in his ways. So NO, God did not originally created evil nor darkness, Satan did when iniquity was found in him.


16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
KJV

That pronounced sentence of destruction by God in the fire, is also another way to know He is pointing to Satan. It's because no flesh king has been judged and sentenced to perish by fire in the future yet. But Satan and his angels already have been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire".

God doesn't accidentally create bad fruit. Satan is a tool of God to serve his purposes. You have the mistaken belief that Satan, on his own initiative and against God's wishes, went his own way. No, God created Satan to do exactly what he's doing.

Matthew 7:17-19

English Standard Version

​

17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[Stumpmaster]

God doesn't accidentally create bad fruit. Satan is a tool of God to serve his purposes. You have the mistaken belief that Satan, on his own initiative and against God's wishes, went his own way. No, God created Satan to do exactly what he's doing.

Matthew 7:17-19​

​

English Standard Version​

​

​

17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

God created Satan as a holy angel without sin, but with a will and the ability to choose whether to obey Him or not. Lucifer became evil due to self-generated pride. This represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe, preceding the fall of Adam by an indeterminate time. God did not create evil, but allowed for the possibility of evil.

 

[Patrick1966]

God created Satan as a holy angel without sin, but with a will and the ability to choose whether to obey Him or not. Lucifer became evil due to self-generated pride. This represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe, preceding the fall of Adam by an indeterminate time. God did not create evil, but allowed for the possibility of evil.

Then God created bad fruit and so Jesus was wrong when he said that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit.

 

[ButterflyJones]

It was not "foreordained" as much as it was "foreknown" by an Omniscient God who has the ability to know the future as he knows the past.
A lot of prophesy recorded long before it happened, was predicted by God, rather than being caused by him, (because of God's foreknowledge.) God did not plan what his free willed children would do, but he could know it so as to warn his servants in advance of the outcome of any course of action that was against his laws or principles. Like James states.....
"Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you meet with various trials, 3 knowing as you do that this tested quality of your faith produces endurance. 4 But let endurance complete its work, so that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything."

Trials are character building, so we have the opportunity to benefit from the past experiences of others which are recorded in scripture.
Judas knew what Christ taught about honesty and greed, but given the responsibility of looking after the group's finances brought out the worst traits in Judas.....and he became a thief.

James went on to say....
"13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile,* gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death."

This was Judas' path, followed to the letter.
Because of prophesy, Jesus knew that one of his close associates would betray him, but in the beginning, he did not know who it was going to be. It wasn't until Judas began to manifest the traits of greed for financial gain, that Jesus was made aware of what would be his undoing. Luke says that satan emboldened Judas to carry out his betrayal. (Luke 22:3-6)

Matt 10:1

In context it says...
"While he was still speaking, look! a crowd, and the man called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them, and he approached Jesus to kiss him. 48 But Jesus said to him: “Judas, are you betraying the Son of man with a kiss?” 49 When those around him saw what was going to happen, they said: “Lord, should we strike with the sword?” 50 One of them even struck the slave of the high priest, taking off his right ear. 51 But in reply Jesus said: “That is enough.” And he touched the ear and healed him. 52 Jesus then said to the chief priests and captains of the temple and elders who had come there for him: “Did you come out with swords and clubs as against a robber? 53 While I was with you in the temple day after day, you did not lay your hands on me. But this is your hour and the authority of darkness.”

That "hour" of their "authority of darkness" was addressed to the chief priests and the elders and others whom Judas led to identify their target. It all fulfilled prophesy.

Judas cannot be forgiven because he sinned against the holy spirit....
Matt 10:1...."So he summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, in order to expel these and to cure every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity."
He participated in acts under the power of holy spirit, and so betrayed more that just Jesus. He is "the son of perdition" (John 17:12)...."perdition" or "destruction" is "apōleia" which Strongs defines as...."actively, a destroying, utter destruction." Judas will never be seen again, and his suicide proves that he knew he was unforgivable.

We'll agree to disagree.

Jesus knew what Judas was going to do and gave him leave to do it. Why? Because Jesus was born to die and seal with his blood the new covenant.

There was no other way for Jesus to become cursed under the law, carrying the sins of the world upon himself, than to be hanged, crucified on a tree.

He was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. And Judas was the bridge.

I don't see Judas as the son of perdition. Satan is.

Perdition=destruction?

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.


And I think the cursed betrayer is the Sadducee Caiaphas, who had Jesus arrested and wanted him put to death for blasphemy.

While Judas served God's purpose.

Think not? As popular and public as Jesus was, why did Caiaphas need Judas to identify Jesus?

How would Jesus have died on a tree otherwise were it not for Judas pointing him out for arrest? So the Sadducees could kill him before Passover using the Romans as executioners.

Jesus told the Disciples one among them would turn on him.

When Peter carried a sword to Gethsemane and that was how he cut the ear from the head of the temple guard later, do we really think Judas would have made it out of that upper room?
After Jesus told them one of them, turns out it was Judas, was going to turn him over to his enemies?

And remember too, Peter likely wasn't the only disciple who had a sword.

Jesus had told them to buy one. Sell what they had to if necessary.

When Peter later cut the ear from that guard do we think he'd have let Judas leave the upper room? After Jesus had told them what was going to happen? One among them was going to turn him over to his enemies. And then almost immediately Jesus commands Judas to go and do what he must do.

Caiaphas - New World Encyclopedia

www.newworldencyclopedia.org

Judas cursed himself by hanging himself from a tree. Before Jesus forgave them, all involved in his crucifixion, because they knew not what they did.

Judas did not know he was going to serve the Sadducees agenda to murder Jesus. He did not know what he was doing in that regard.

Which is why he returned to Caiaphas the 30 pieces of silver and then killed himself.

Interestingly, the "bride price" a father would charge her rapist,any man who laid with a virgin before marriage, so that the man who knew her before marriage could marry her was higher than what the Sadducees paid Judas. They knew this.

30 pieces of silver. Exodus 21:32.
30 shekles of silver was the price for a dead slave.

How old was Jesus when he began his ministry immediately after his baptism?
30.
Crucified 3 years later at 33.

Mark 4:11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’[a]”

 

[Aunty Jane]

@ButterflyJones
John 17:11-15....
“I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. 12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world, so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
He identifies satan in the very next verse....
“15 I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one."

In context, this is Jesus talking about his disciples...."they" and "them"....he singled out just one exception who was to be "destroyed".....Judas. How can you possibly think his words apply to satan, when he has just finished asking his Father to watch over his disciples "because of the wicked one"?