Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?

[M3n0r4h]

There are two seeds of Abraham, the heavenly seed and the earthly seed.

can you provide a verse for that?

and which/whom is which/whom? are we talking Wheat and Tares?

Jesus said very clearly that the scribes and Pharisees (jews) were NOT Abraham's sons/seed.

if both are here together upon the earth, then it's the heavenly seed that matters, alone, to God.

as Paul made clear in the Galatians verses posted prior.

 

[Earburner]

I wonder how this fits in:

Ezek 11:17-19,

17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.​

​

18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.​

​

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:​

​

Ezek 37:21-27,

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:​

​

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:​

​

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.​

​

24 And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.​

​

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever.​

​

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.​

​

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

I don't think it's talking about the second temple period. I think that could be what's fulfilled at the end of Revelation.

One thing is for sure though, God wasn't talking about the UN in 1948 fulfilling His promise to Abraham!

Yes, all those scriptures in Ezk. are God's "Promise" made to the entirety of Israel first, and can be understood both literally and/or spiritually.
Through the mind of our "natural man", it is easy to understand it all as being literal and physical.

The "Land" ("earthen vessel") of that Promise (the Promised Person) came to them, being God the Son Himself. But, as we all know, except for a remnant out of each generation, the majority of Israel still reject Jesus, the only peace maker between God the Father and all of human kind.

But since those promises came to them through the Person of the "Promised One", it is imperative that we who are Born again of His Holy Spirit, understand it through "the mind of Christ who is within us".
Isaiah 55:8-9 is that clue, to inform us that it is all based on the spiritual.

The Holy Spirit in Paul also leads us by that same direction: 1 Cor 2:1-16
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Earburner]

The main point is if you are truly born again of the Holy Spirit then you are worthy of God in fact and the issue of so called race is a spastic issue that is of Satan in fact, because the Jews were never founded on a race in fact, that is not the issue at all but abiding in the Holy Spirit is where it's all at ?
Not to mention their is no Race in Christianity for all are as one ! for their is nether Jew or Greek ! so the issue of race never cut it ! but for one thing that does and that is the Holy Spirit that is above all in fact !

The Jew was only just one Semitic Tribe among many Semitic Tribes in fact. and the major point of this Tribe was the Spirit and not to mention only some were worthy of such and many were not in fact ! it's all their in reading of the OT !

Not to mention the worthy Jews came to Jesus in fact and they were the first Christians in fact.

Yes! One should also consider this:
Semitic- "relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic" - Mer.Web. dictionary.

How does the "anti-semitic" attitude of Israel, against its semitic Arab neighbors, justify the world to be antisemitic against Israel only?
Ans. the Jews are using reverse psychology on us all.

Everytime ZIONISM attacks their neighbors, they ARE just as much antisemitic, as any Gentile.

The Jews are NOT a "race", but rather they are a religion, that God has "cast out", being just as much equal to Islam.- Gal. 4:1-31.

Many never do think that through.
Nor do they dare entertain the simple fact that the "Jerusalem which now is", is one of only two prophetic "mothers" in all of the NT, and is the one that "is fallen", aka "cast out".
Study all of Gal. 4, and you will learn who it is, that is called MYSTERY, Babylon the Great, the MOTHER OF harlots.
It's a "mystery". Which is to say, it's not readily or easily seen by the natural man's mind of our flesh. Only by the mind of Christ within us, will it be revealed to born again Christians.

 

[Rich R]

Yes, all those scriptures in Ezk. are God's "Promise" made to the entirety of Israel first, and can be understood both literally and/or spiritually.
Through the mind of our "natural man", it is easy to understand it all as being literal and physical.

The "Land" ("earthen vessel") of that Promise (the Promised Person) came to them, being God the Son Himself. But, as we all know, except for a remnant out of each generation, the majority of Israel still reject Jesus, the only peace maker between God the Father and all of human kind.

But since those promises came to them through the Person of the "Promised One", it is imperative that we who are Born again of His Holy Spirit, understand it through "the mind of Christ who is within us".
Isaiah 55:8-9 is that clue, to inform us that it is all based on the spiritual.

The Holy Spirit in Paul also leads us by that same direction: 1 Cor 2:1-16
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost tea cheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

It is certainly true that there is the natural and the spiritual, but I think we must keep each in its proper place. There is actually a slight caveat to that, but I won't go into it since it's not relevent to this conversation. If we spiritualize everything, I don't see any end to the unscriptural ideas that anyone can dream up (not that you are dreaming things up).

Why spiritualize something as simple as "land?' What does "earthen vessel" have to do with "land." Assuming you are referring to 1 Cor 4:7, the "earthen vessel" refers to our natural bodies which are hardly spiritual. In fact they are set in direct contrast from the the Spirit, i.e. God..

There are 6 other usages of "earthen vessel" and none are spiritual at all. The are all about vessels made of clay.

 

[Earburner]

Why spiritualize something as simple as "land?' What does "earthen vessel" have to do with "land." Assuming you are referring to 1 Cor 4:7, the "earthen vessel" refers to our natural bodies which are hardly spiritual. In fact they are set in direct contrast from the the Spirit, i.e. God..

Jesus did not come to the planet earth to die for the earth, or a future one like it.
He came to die for us, who are made from the earth, so that God the Father (only a spirit) could dwell within us, through His Son, who now is eternally both Spirit and Immortal flesh.
He is the mediating "living veil" for both God the Father and all of us, who are born again. Heb. 10
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

God and His Righteousness, which dwells within us (our earthen bodies) through Jesus, has been longsuffering for that moment, of which began on Pentecost, being stage 1 of 2 of our process of salvation from sin and death.
Stage 2 will be it's completion, in the Day of Jesus' Glorious return, whereby ALL who are born again, will be resurrected (changed) into His likeness, and so shall we ever be WITH the Lord.

 

[Earburner]

Why spiritualize something as simple as "land?' What does "earthen vessel" have to do with "land."

It's not about the Jews and their vain thoughts and supposed heritage. It's all about WHERE God wants to dwell.

The same applies to the Feast of Tabenacles, aka Pentecost.
It's not about the Jews living in "booths"/temporary dwelling places, but rather God Himself dwelling within our temporary mortal fleshly bodies, of which will become wthin each of us, His permanent dwelling place, in the day we are resurrected/changed into the likeness of Jesus.
Jesus IS HIS Father's house, and all we who are Born again ARE the MANY mansions, that Jesus is placing there.

To be IN Jesus, is to be IN the KoG.
To be IN the KoG, is to be IN Jesus.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Jews will not inherit the kingdom of God, as Jesus said right here.
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unbelieving Jews rejected the chief cornerstone. All believers are now become as Issac was, a child of the promise of God to Abraham that he would have children as the stars in heaven for number. Those children are those who believe in and so therefore follow Christ.
The sons are free as Jesus told Peter as they are children of promise.
Peter tells us we are the holy nation that will inherit the promises of God.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Galatians 4:23
But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

The Changeless Promise​

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God [e]in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Purpose of the Law​

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sons and Heirs​

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will [g]render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they [h]perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

 

[Rich R]

Jesus did not come to the planet earth to die for the earth, or a future one like it.
He came to die for us, who are made from the earth, so that God the Father (only a spirit) could dwell within us, through His Son, who now is eternally both Spirit and Immortal flesh.
He is the mediating "living veil" for both God the Father and all of us, who are born again. Heb. 10
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

God and His Righteousness, which dwells within us (our earthen bodies) through Jesus, has been longsuffering for that moment, of which began on Pentecost, being stage 1 of 2 of our process of salvation from sin and death.
Stage 2 will be it's completion, in the Day of Jesus' Glorious return, whereby ALL who are born again, will be resurrected (changed) into His likeness, and so shall we ever be WITH the Lord.

All that sounds good. To be clear, I absolutely believe we have Christ in us. It'd be hard to deny that after reading Col 1:27. Of course now we still have that pesky flesh that gets in the way of our doing God's will consistently (Romans 7). That'll all change when we get new bodies like Jesus got after he was raised from among the dead. I know mine could use a good makeover!

I do find it interesting that we will meet Jesus in the clouds, not on the earth (1 Thes 4:16-17). Soon after, Jesus will finish his journey to the earth and, as you say, we'll be right there with him. I can picture being back on the new earth easily enough, but I wonder what it'll be like hanging around in the clouds for a spell. Should be interesting!

As a slight detour, I think those verses in Thessalonians (and others) blow away the idea that we go to heaven or hell upon dying, that we don't really die. That's kind of like what the devil told Eve, "ye shall not surely die." I've seen dead people and they sure look dead to me. Plus, ff nobody really died, what's the need for a resurrection? If I I die before Jesus comes back, I think it'll be pretty neat to come boring up from 6 feet under ground to try on the new body Jesus will have for me and then zoom up into the clouds. I was a professional pilot and I though just flying an airplane was pretty cool, but that'll be nothing as I takeoff without 100,000 pounds of metal surrounding me. Just me and the air!

 

[Rich R]

It's not about the Jews and their vain thoughts and supposed heritage. It's all about WHERE God wants to dwell.

The same applies to the Feast of Tabenacles, aka Pentecost.
It's not about the Jews living in "booths"/temporary dwelling places, but rather God Himself dwelling within our temporary mortal fleshly bodies, of which will become wthin each of us, His permanent dwelling place, in the day we are resurrected/changed into the likeness of Jesus.
Jesus IS HIS Father's house, and all we who are Born again ARE the MANY mansions, that Jesus is placing there.

To be IN Jesus, is to be IN the KoG.
To be IN the KoG, is to be IN Jesus.

All good stuff. All those things are both actual things but are also, as you say, harbingers of something even more real.

But I'm not so sure about Israel's heritage being "supposed." God did reserve them for Himself as a peculiar people and It was that heritage that led to Jesus. Seems like a pretty real heritage to me. It also seems like that is what Romans 11 is talking about. The whole chapter is worth a read, but verses 1 & 2 leave little room for saying anything other than what they say.

Rom 11:1-2,

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.​

​

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,​

God put His dealings with Israel on hold during this age of grace that was kept secret until God revealed it to Paul (look up "mystery" in a Concordance, especially in Ephesians). This is the time of the Gentiles (Romans 11:25). Once that is over, i.e., when Jesus gathers Christians together to meet him in the clouds (1 Thes 4:16-17, et. al.), God will once again deal with Israel. That's what Revelation is all about, as well as much of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others talk about. God still has a plan for Israel. He has not cast them away.

 

[Rich R]

The Jews will not inherit the kingdom of God, as Jesus said right here.
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unbelieving Jews rejected the chief cornerstone. All believers are now become as Issac was, a child of the promise of God to Abraham that he would have children as the stars in heaven for number. Those children are those who believe in and so therefore follow Christ.
The sons are free as Jesus told Peter as they are children of promise.
Peter tells us we are the holy nation that will inherit the promises of God.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Galatians 4:23
But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

The Changeless Promise​

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God [e]in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Purpose of the Law​

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sons and Heirs​

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will [g]render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they [h]perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

Not saying you are wrong, but how do you see Romans chapter 11 fit in with all of that, particularly verses 1 & 2?

Rom 11:1-2,

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.​

​

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,​

​

The rest of the chapter goes into more detail.

 

[Earburner]

I do find it interesting that we will meet Jesus in the clouds, not on the earth (1 Thes 4:16-17). Soon after, Jesus will finish his journey to the earth and, as you say, we'll be right there with him. I can picture being back on the new earth easily enough, but I wonder what it'll be like hanging around in the clouds for a spell. Should be interesting!

I didn't say that we shall return to the earth, after we meet Jesus in the air.
1 Thes. 4:17 says: "...and so shall we ever be with Lord". There is nothing further said, whereby one should assume that Jesus descends to the surface of the Earth.

One thing is for certain, in that moment, we will be where He is. John 14
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[Rich R]

I didn't say that we shall return to the earth, after we meet Jesus in the air.
1 Thes. 4:17 says: "...and so shall we ever be with Lord". There is nothing further said, whereby one should assume that Jesus descends to the surface of the Earth.

One thing is for certain, in that moment, we will be where He is. John 14
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Well, you are right in pointing out that Thessalonians never says explicitly that Jesus will come to the earth after we meet him in the clouds. But then again, neither is there any explicit declaration, "Jesus is God" and yet that has been accepted as the very bedrock of the Christian faith by the orthodox church for some 2,000 years.

But I was thinking about Isaiah.

Isa 65:17-25,

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

There will be a new heaven and earth. It will include a place called Jerusalem. The people will build houses, plant vineyards, they will eat the fruit of those vineyards. There will be wolves and lambs (presumably there will be other animals as well). We also see in Isaiah that Yahweh will be with those people in Jerusalem. In addition, as you pointed out, Jesus will be wherever we are. Where do you see all of that happening? Heaven or land?

I might also point out the obvious fact that the Bible was not written last year in New York or LA. It was written to a people in the Ancient Near East with a radically different worldview than we of the Modern West. What do you think they would have thought about where they would spend the future? I'm thinking that they knew full well that houses, vineyards, animals, etc. existed on the land. In fact, I'd bet my last dollar on that. Heaven was for the birds, the rain and the realm of the gods. They believed that people lived in the land. Not sure what would have made them think it'd be any different in the new heaven and new earth. Probably nothing. In fact, I'd bet my last dollar on that also.

 

[amigo de christo]

Not saying you are wrong, but how do you see Romans chapter 11 fit in with all of that, particularly verses 1 & 2?

Rom 11:1-2,

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.​

​

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,​

​

The rest of the chapter goes into more detail.

Yeah and WHO DID PAUL BELIEVE IN . JESUS CHRIST . so yeah not all of israel had been cast out .
THERE BE BUT ONE WAY . For a jew or a gentile .
And before i get called a racist by someone and a jew hater
allow me to say WHO IT IS .
JESUS CHRIST . According to the flesh JESUS was a jew . THOUGH HE was long before any was .
SO lets hear what he told the unbelieving jews .
YE are of ..............
are you sitting down .
Before i proceed you need to sit down . I want no man fainting or hitting his head . I do not want to be the cause
of injury to any man .
Now , if you have pulled up a chair and sat down . HERE GOES .
YE ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL . Man that dont sound good .
Now lets hear what jews like peter , paul and others had to tell the unbelieving jews or any unbeliever .
THEY SHOOK the dust of their feet . WHY .
CAUSE JESUS had this to say . IF any recieves you not , shake the dust off your feet as a testimony
against them . I TELL YOU ALL it will be better for sodom than for them on the day of judgment .
THERE BE ONLY ONE WAY IN . And its high time we learn it and preach that message to every jew and every gentile .
And the message is this . YOU BETTER BELIEVE YE IN CHRST JESUS WHOM GOD DID SEND .

 

[amigo de christo]

Well, you are right in pointing out that Thessalonians never says explicitly that Jesus will come to the earth after we meet him in the clouds. But then again, neither is there any explicit declaration, "Jesus is God" and yet that has been accepted as the very bedrock of the Christian faith by the orthodox church for some 2,000 years.

But I was thinking about Isaiah.

Isa 65:17-25,

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

There will be a new heaven and earth. It will include a place called Jerusalem. The people will build houses, plant vineyards, they will eat the fruit of those vineyards. There will be wolves and lambs (presumably there will be other animals as well). We also see in Isaiah that Yahweh will be with those people in Jerusalem. In addition, as you pointed out, Jesus will be wherever we are. Where do you see all of that happening? Heaven or land?

I might also point out the obvious fact that the Bible was not written last year in New York or LA. It was written to a people in the Ancient Near East with a radically different worldview than we of the Modern West. What do you think they would have thought about where they would spend the future? I'm thinking that they knew full well that houses, vineyards, animals, etc. existed on the land. In fact, I'd bet my last dollar on that. Heaven was for the birds, the rain and the realm of the gods. They believed that people lived in the land. Not sure what would have made them think it'd be any different in the new heaven and new earth. Probably nothing. In fact, I'd bet my last dollar on that also.

Never the less , we according to HIS PROMISE look for the new heavens and the new earth .
JESUS said the meek shall INHERIT the EARTH . Not this old sin ridden place
But a new earth wherein dwelleth rigtheousness . ALL we have to do is look around
the scriptures to see this . YEP . You seen it my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

All that sounds good. To be clear, I absolutely believe we have Christ in us. It'd be hard to deny that after reading Col 1:27. Of course now we still have that pesky flesh that gets in the way of our doing God's will consistently (Romans 7). That'll all change when we get new bodies like Jesus got after he was raised from among the dead. I know mine could use a good makeover!

I do find it interesting that we will meet Jesus in the clouds, not on the earth (1 Thes 4:16-17). Soon after, Jesus will finish his journey to the earth and, as you say, we'll be right there with him. I can picture being back on the new earth easily enough, but I wonder what it'll be like hanging around in the clouds for a spell. Should be interesting!

As a slight detour, I think those verses in Thessalonians (and others) blow away the idea that we go to heaven or hell upon dying, that we don't really die. That's kind of like what the devil told Eve, "ye shall not surely die." I've seen dead people and they sure look dead to me. Plus, ff nobody really died, what's the need for a resurrection? If I I die before Jesus comes back, I think it'll be pretty neat to come boring up from 6 feet under ground to try on the new body Jesus will have for me and then zoom up into the clouds. I was a professional pilot and I though just flying an airplane was pretty cool, but that'll be nothing as I takeoff without 100,000 pounds of metal surrounding me. Just me and the air!

The coming of the KING draws nigh . The lambs gonna fly up on that day too .

 

[Rich R]

Yeah and WHO DID PAUL BELIEVE IN . JESUS CHRIST . so yeah not all of israel had been cast out .
THERE BE BUT ONE WAY . For a jew or a gentile .
And before i get called a racist by someone and a jew hater
allow me to say WHO IT IS .
JESUS CHRIST . According to the flesh JESUS was a jew . THOUGH HE was long before any was .
SO lets here what he told the unbelieving jews .
YE are of ..............
are you sitting down .
Before i proceed you need to sit down . I want no man fainting or hitting his head . I do not want to be the cause
of injury to any man .
Now , if you have pulled up a chair and sat down . HERE GOES .
YE ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL . Man that dont sound good .
Now lets here what jews like peter , paul and others had to tell the unbelieving jews or any unbeliever .
THEY SHOOK the dust of their feet . WHY .
CAUSE JESUS had this to say . IF any recieves you not , shake the dust off your feet as a testimony
against them . I TELL YOU ALL it will be better for sodom than for them on the day of judgment .
THERE BE ONLY ONE WAY IN . And its high time we learn it and preach that message to every jew and every gentile .
And the message is this . YOU BETTER BELIEVE YE IN CHRST JESUS WHOM GOD DID SEND .

All very good points. Very scriptural. However I might suggest one little thing, namely, who Jesus said were children of the devil.

John 8:3,

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,​

​

It was those praticular scribes and Pharisees Jesus was addressing, not necessarily all unbelieving Jews. When Jesus spoke those words there were undoubtably many Jews who did not believe in him but later, after seeing him raised from among the dead, ended up totally believe in him. That would have included even some scribes and Pharisees. Paul himself was a Pharisee and certainly did not believe in Jesus until he met him face to face while on his way to capture more Christians.

I don't mean to knitpick, but just thought I'd point that little detail out to you. God knows I often miss little details myself.

 

[Rich R]

The coming of the KING draws nigh . The lambs gonna fly up on that day too .

Hopefully later today! But if not today, it'll be one of these days for sure.

 

[RR144]

neither is there any explicit declaration, "Jesus is God" and yet that has been accepted as the very bedrock of the Christian faith by the orthodox church for some 2,000 years.

That doesn't make it right or Truth

 

[Rich R]

That doesn't make it right or Truth

As much as I'd like to discuss the nature of Jesus, what I would have to say is verboten in this forum. Not that I'm complaining. It's not my forum. They can do whatever they see fit.

Having said that, I think it safe to say that Jesus is the son of God. It explicitly says that about 3 dozen times as I recall.

 

[M3n0r4h]

That doesn't make it right or Truth

you need to change your Faith declaration to "other" under your screen name and avatar if you don't accept that Christ is God.

there is no legitimate Christianity, nor authentic following of Christ, for those who reject that He is God.

all religions that don't accept Christ as God are pagan religions and Jesus Himself says that you will all die in your sins if you do not believe that He is the God of the Old Testament.