thanks.
how do you justify to yourself ignoring all of the end times passages that declare that the earth will be utterly destroyed by fire?
maybe you can help me to see it your way.
Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?
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how do you justify to yourself ignoring all of the end times passages that declare that the earth will be utterly destroyed by fire?
maybe you can help me to see it your way.
The narrative cited previously from Zechariah outlines an actual millennial reign scenario that would chronologically take place before the final, and possibly second, Gog Magog battle.
Revelation 20:7-10
English Standard Version
The Defeat of Satan
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.The above appears to support Zechariah's millennial reign narrative, after which the forces of evil reap what they have sewn. Concealed in the Old and revealed in the New. Cheers.
okay, but do you see any other specific references to the "thousand years" anywhere else in all of scripture besides Rev. 20?
The promise of the land was unconditional and was enacted BEFORE the Law.
blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” - Gen 22:17, 18
face2face
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This is true. Hebrews 11:39-40 is a great NT verse to show the promises to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob and all Yes in Christ Jesus is yet to be inforced in the Earth. Many would be Christians will be shocked when Christ centres his focus on natural Israel and the establishment of Gods Kingdom in the earth. Well done RR144 for presenting the promises given in both old and new covenants.
F2F
Some critics believe that the "thousand" year term may just refer to a long period of time. It could be shorter, or it could be longer, I have no idea, so I just let scripture interpret scripture as much as possible. Regardless, It believe that the narratives from Zechariah and the Book of Revelation compliment each other. We could also consider Ezekiel chapters 40-48 for a description of what many believe will be the millennial temple.
Ezekiel 43:7-9
Amplified Bible
7 And He [the Lord] said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the sons (descendants) of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their [idolatrous] prostitution and by the corpses and monuments of their kings in their graves, 8 by setting their threshold by My threshold and their doorpost beside My doorpost, with [only] the wall between Me and them. They have defiled and desecrated My holy name by the vile atrocities which they have committed. So I have consumed them in My anger. 9 Now let them put far away from Me their [idolatrous] prostitution and the corpses and monuments of their kings, and I will dwell in their midst forever.Instead of the ark of the covenant and the mercy seat, there will be a throne in the holy of holies. I have an idea just who may be sitting upon that throne, but everyone should decide for themselves. Cheers.
yes, I believe it refers to an uncertain amount of time that's taking place right now upon the earth.
it began when Christ stated that He had received all power and authority in heaven and earth and sent us out into the world to represent Him until the time of His return.
Matt. 28:18-19
at the end of that time period, Jesus returns, calls all His sheep to Him and destroys all wickedness upon the earth with fire, right down to the very elements of creation melting.
1 Cor. 15:23-34
2 Pet. 3:10-11
that's what the Bible teaches.
I believe that the power and authority may have been given to Him long before the incarnation.
...
Daniel 7:9
Amplified Bible
The Ancient of Days Reigns
9 “I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days (God) took His seat; His garment was white as snowAnd the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was flames of fire; Its wheels were a burning fire.
...
The Son of Man Presented
13 “I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, on the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.14 “And to Him (the Messiah) was given dominion (supreme authority), glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and speakers of every language should serve and worship Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.
...
Yeshua/Jesus claimed to be the rider on the cloud at His trial. In ME religions, the rider on the cloud was always considered to be the purview of a god. The high priest understood what Yeshua/Jesus was claiming, and tore his robe and declared that He, Yeshua/Jesus, was guilty of blasphemy. Daniel wrote about it; Yeshua/Jesus claimed that He was the rider, which could indicate that the "dominion (supreme authority), glory and a kingdom" may have been bestowed before the creation event.
makes sense to me, you could certainly be right.
Jesus is God so .... that would all add up.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
I truly do understand the symbolism of "blood crying out for vengeance".
But the entirety of those under the 5th seal, is about "God's remembrance" (Malachi 3:16) of those under the altar of the Old Covenant, whereby in faith, though dead, they were still waiting for the "Promise to come", who was Jesus, that they may also RECEIVE the permanent indwelling of the Gift of God's Holy Spirit. GOD Himself did not forget them.
And that they did, which is clearly symbolized as being "white robes".
Prior to Jesus' first appearance in the flesh, The Holy Spirit of God the Father could not dwell within any man permanently, until the shedding of the Blood of a sinless sacrifice, of whom was Jesus, who is "the Firstborn from the dead".
As was prophetically spoken by the first witness of the "two witnesses": "Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world".
You might want to reflect back to Heb. 10:16-20, and try to understand that God the Father needed the sacrifice of Jesus, for a veil, just as much as we need Jesus as our Savior. For without Him, as God's Sacrifice, the Holy Spirit of God the Father WITHIN Him FIRST, would never come to pass, that BOTH AS ONE could dwell within us.
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
That is why Rom. 8:8-9 is so important to understand.
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
Jesus is the express image of the Father, being God the Son, the Co-creator of all things.
Gen. 1
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Heb. 1
[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb. 10
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I agree. The scriptures do not say that. God did not promise Abraham, "the lands of this earth."
Here's what they actually say:
Gen 13:14-15,
14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Notice he only said, "all the land." There is nothing there about the earth. Abraham, like all the other Ancient Near East folks had no concept of a round plant orbiting around the sun. All they knew about was the land, the heavens (where the birds fly, hence Melchizedek's statement), and the waters. Indeed, without our modern science how could they have seen things any other way? All they had was their eyes. Go outside and look. All you can see is land, the skies (with birds flying around), and if you happened to live near an ocean or big lake, the water. That was Abraham's worldview.
It really muddies the waters to read our modern day worldview into the scriptures. God wrote to a people who lived 3,000 years ago in a culture radically different than our own. I sometimes wonder how God would have communicated His will to us had He waited until recent history to reveal that will. Undoubtedly an exercise in futility.
In any case, God told Abraham to look in all directions at the land. I don't see anything spiritual there. Why read anything into the text that's not really there?
If the kingdom of God were actually here now, I'd be profoundly disappointed. I mean, look at the state of affairs in the world today. No, I think only when Jesus returns, and not until then, will the kingdom promised Abraham finally become a reality, the promise fulfilled. I dare say Jesus will administer the land much better than our current leadership. But then again, probably your average 3rd grader could do a better job as far as that goes!
Rom 8:22,
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Paradise? I think not.
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where do you find God promising Abraham a Kingdom??
you're combining two, or more, Biblical teachings into one that doesn't exist.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the heads up. I stand corrected. I edited that post to better conform to the scriptures.
All God promised Abraham was the land, the land he could see with his own two eyes. Although it is from that land, Jerusalem and surrounding area, that Jesus will rule his worldwide kingdom.
Man, we gotta be precise with God's Word. Every word is purified 7 times. My words often are not!
In any case, I hope you see what I was trying to say, i.e., that Jesus' kingdom does not yet rule on this present evil world, currently ruled by the prince of the power of the air, the god of this world. When Jesus makes his second advent, not as the lamb led to slaughter but as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, he will dispatch that old bird to chains for a 1,000 years. When he's released he'll experience first hand the fire from God and that will be his pemanent end. That much I stand on and you'd have a hard time talking me out of it.
I really wouldn't know how to read the last three chapters in Revelation. They're not very obtuse about the matter. Not obtuse at all really.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
I agree. The scriptures do not say that. God did not promise Abraham, "the lands of this earth."
Here's what they actually say:
Gen 13:14-15,
14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Notice he only said, "all the land." There is nothing there about the earth. Abraham, like all the other Ancient Near East folks had no concept of a round plant orbiting around the sun. All they knew about was the land, the heavens (where the birds fly, hence Melchizedek's statement), and the waters. Indeed, without our modern science how could they have seen things any other way? All they had was their eyes. Go outside and look. All you can see is land, the skies (with birds flying around), and if you happened to live near an ocean or big lake, the water. That was Abraham's worldview.
It really muddies the waters to read our modern day worldview into the scriptures. God wrote to a people who lived 3,000 years ago in a culture radically different than our own. I sometimes wonder how God would have communicated His will to us had He waited until recent history to reveal that will. Undoubtedly an exercise in futility.
In any case, God told Abraham to look in all directions at the land. I don't see anything spiritual there. Why read anything into the text that's not really there?
If the kingdom of God were actually here now, I'd be profoundly disappointed. I mean, look at the state of affairs in the world today. No, I think only when Jesus returns, and not until then, will the kingdom promised Abraham finally become a reality, the promise fulfilled. I dare say Jesus will administer the land much better than our current leadership. But then again, probably your average 3rd grader could do a better job as far as that goes!
Rom 8:22,
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.Paradise? I think not.
Your observation and assessment is good, but dare I say, it is still with eyes of flesh.
On the contrary, in the beginning God created the heavens (these heavens) and the earth of the same elements as He did man, whom He made in His image. Then He set about unfolding revelations of that same physical nature, but also spiritual revelations...which were and are images unseen to these eyes of flesh. And later the message is: "He who has an ear, let him hear."
To hear then ("every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" includes both what can be seen by "image", and also what cannot be seen, but heard nonetheless. Such is not reading into the written word, but rather reading with expectation that there is more than meets the eye. Certainly there is more, much more, as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
Thus, in this way we should know that what God has revealed in part in ways the eye can see, it is only in part...and when the scales come off our eyes, we first come to see the parable nature in which God has all along revealed the unseen through what is seen.
Anyway, do not be discouraged by what you see, for while this world is passing away, all things are made new.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
"He who has an ear, let him hear." has a context, namely that the Jews did not understand who Jesus was despite the clear parallel between his life and that which was written to Israel. There is nothing spiritual about it. The OT said the messiah would do such and such and Jesus did such and such. That is pretty much what next few verses say in Matthew 13:15-17. No need to "interpret" anything there. Thee verses say what they say. To take that out of context and apply it as broadly as you seem to do is unwarranted. If we're going to try and go beyond the obvious meaning of simple words there is no end of error one can introduce into the text. Just read what's written on material paper with material eyes and God's plan will be easy to grasp.
"To hear then ("every word that proceeds from the mouth of God") includes both what can be seen by "image", and also what cannot be seen, but heard nonetheless."
By what authority do you say that? I don't see anything of the sort in the actual scriptures. As I said, I don't think Matt 12:15 applies so broadly as that.
I know it's asking a lot, but could you go over Revelation 20 and tell me the spiritual meaning, the meaning beyond what it seems to clearly say?
By the way, Genesis has very little to do with material creation. The Ancient Near Eastern folks had little interest in atoms or the big bang. They were pretty much only interested in how to please the gods so as to live a relatively calm life. God told Israel that He was the one that tamed the chaos waters of Gen 1:2, made the land livable for humans, and finally on day 7, He took up residence in the Garden do He could live with humans as His agents to spread Eden over the entire land.
They took for granted that God made the material creation, but as I said they were more interested in living in harmony with God and that is why God wrote Genesis, to tell them He was all for them. He didn't write it to explain quantum mechanics. Too bad Adam thought he could judge between good and evil, which they really understood as functional and dysfunctional, what would work for them and what wouldn't. God had told him what would work, but Adam thought he knew better.
One other thing; thanks for the encouragement to not get discouraged, but I am far from discouraged. I'm actually quite filled with hope that Jesus will return and make thing even better than Adam and Eve had. Just gotta stick around an wait. I can do that.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
"He who has an ear, let him hear." has a context, namely that the Jews did not understand who Jesus was despite the clear parallel between his life and that which was written to Israel. There is nothing spiritual about it. The OT said the messiah would do such and such and Jesus did such and such. That is pretty much what next few verses say in Matthew 13:15-17. No need to "interpret" anything there. Thee verses say what they say. To take that out of context and apply it as broadly as you seem to do is unwarranted. If we're going to try and go beyond the obvious meaning of simple words there is no end of error one can introduce into the text. Just read what's written on material paper with material eyes and God's plan will be easy to grasp.
"To hear then ("every word that proceeds from the mouth of God") includes both what can be seen by "image", and also what cannot be seen, but heard nonetheless."
By what authority do you say that? I don't see anything of the sort in the actual scriptures. As I said, I don't think Matt 12:15 applies so broadly as that.
I know it's asking a lot, but could you go over Revelation 20 and tell me the spiritual meaning, the meaning beyond what it seems to clearly say?
By the way, Genesis has very little to do with material creation. The Ancient Near Eastern folks had little interest in atoms or the big bang. They were pretty much only interested in how to please the gods so as to live a relatively calm life. God told Israel that He was the one that tamed the chaos waters of Gen 1:2, made the land livable for humans, and finally on day 7, He took up residence in the Garden do He could live with humans as His agents to spread Eden over the entire land.
They took for granted that God made the material creation, but as I said they were more interested in living in harmony with God and that is why God wrote Genesis, to tell them He was all for them. He didn't write it to explain quantum mechanics. Too bad Adam thought he could judge between good and evil, which they really understood as functional and dysfunctional, what would work for them and what wouldn't. God had told him what would work, but Adam thought he knew better.
One other thing; by the grace of God, I operate all nine manifestations of the spirit outlined in 1 Cor 12:7-10, part of the spiritual matters Paul outlined in that chapter. I say that not to toot my horn, but to put to rest any ideas you many have of my lack of spirituality.
If you do not admittedly accept that the context and scope of Jesus the Word is every word from God, or that the words which He has spoken and distinctly said, "are spirit"...I am not going to debate it with you. That is enough.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
I will be more daring and specific. Abraham was a type of Jesus, with Isaac and Jacob having the same hope, in likeness as we do.I agree. The scriptures do not say that. God did not promise Abraham, "the lands of this earth."
Here's what they actually say:
Gen 13:14-15,
14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Notice he only said, "all the land." There is nothing there about the earth. Abraham, like all the other Ancient Near East folks had no concept of a round plant orbiting around the sun. All they knew about was the land, the heavens (where the birds fly, hence Melchizedek's statement), and the waters. Indeed, without our modern science how could they have seen things any other way? All they had was their eyes. Go outside and look. All you can see is land, the skies (with birds flying around), and if you happened to live near an ocean or big lake, the water. That was Abraham's worldview.
It really muddies the waters to read our modern day worldview into the scriptures. God wrote to a people who lived 3,000 years ago in a culture radically different than our own. I sometimes wonder how God would have communicated His will to us had He waited until recent history to reveal that will. Undoubtedly an exercise in futility.
In any case, God told Abraham to look in all directions at the land. I don't see anything spiritual there. Why read anything into the text that's not really there?
If the kingdom of God were actually here now, I'd be profoundly disappointed. I mean, look at the state of affairs in the world today. No, I think only when Jesus returns, and not until then, will the kingdom promised Abraham finally become a reality, the promise fulfilled. I dare say Jesus will administer the land much better than our current leadership. But then again, probably your average 3rd grader could do a better job as far as that goes!
Rom 8:22,
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.Paradise? I think not.
Heb. 11
[9] By faith he [Abraham]
A. sojourned in the land of promise,
B. as in a strange country,
C. dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob (a covering for a temporary dwelling),
D. the heirs with him of the same promise:
[10] For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
So, my question is what "land" was it, in which Jesus was the FIRST to inherit?
A. Aren't all born again Christians sojourneying within their land of Promise?
B. As we sojourn in Jesus, are we not now dwelling in a strange country/setting?
C. Isn't it so that our present tabernacle is only a temporary existence?
D. Are we not heirs with Jesus of the same Promise, that He received?
2 Cor. 4
[7] But we have this [His] treasure in earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
1 Peter 2
[5] Ye also, as lively [gem] stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
2 Cor. 5
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
In all of what God has created, this planet included, HIS deepest desire, of which He longsuffers for, is for Himself (a spirit) to permanently dwell within us, and for us to share with Jesus in the inheritance of His Gift of eternal life and immortality.
We each ourselves ARE the land and the city of God's building and making.
For 2023 years so far, Jesus being at the right hand of the Father, has not required anything of sustenance from this present planet, nor that of another one like it.
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Rich R
Well-Known Member
Those are all good points. I agree with you about the parallels between Abraham and Christians, but a parallel of something by definition means there are two different things.
When God spoke to Abraham about inheriting the land, I think, when taken as read, that He was referring to a very physical land, one that Abraham could see with his two eyes. Abraham would have had no idea of Christians coming in the future. In fact, Paul calls that idea a mystery (Greek musterion, better translated as a secret) that nobody knew until God revealed it to Paul.
Rom 16:25,
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1Cor 2:7, But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Eph 1:9-11, 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Christians are never said to inherit the land God promised Abraham. Our inheritance is quite a differennt thing than the promise God made to Abraham. I don't think we should mix up the promise God made to Abraham with that of the Christians. Two very different things.
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