We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[David in NJ]

We are just not told - it likely he was.

We should only believe what God told us and should never add to His words.

2 Kings 2:11
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

[Truth7t7]

We should only believe what God told us and should never add to His words.

2 Kings 2:11
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

I Agree, the poster denies the plain scripture before the eyes, Elijah went up in a whirlwind to heaven, its that simple

 

[Timtofly]

Moses was buried by God.
Deuteronomy 34:5-6
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.

Elijah was not buried.
2 Kings 2:11
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Moses wrote those words, before he left the camp. You think someone else wrote those words, about Moses.

What actually happened is an unknown, until the NT. Then we see that Satan, in death, did not get the body of Moses. Who was lying, Moses in writing his own epitaph, or Jude under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Moses wanted them to accept he was dead. Moses may or may not have known what would happen. In fact he told them not to go look for a body, that God had it all handled. You accept God came down, and personally buried the body, no? Well Adam's dead flesh could not enter Paradise, so that means that Elijah was not in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, but had already been translated into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

God could have already changed Moses like He did Enoch. But we will never know. Moses disobeyed God, so he could not enter the promised land, where he could have lived another 40 years as their leader. He could have entered heaven in a fiery chariot. But Moses had told them many times that disobedience leads to death. So Moses left in disgrace, because he disobeyed God. He made sure they knew one thing; that he was dead, as there was no victorious leaving for him, as he had disobeyed God, and left the camp in punishment.

In Revelation there are 4 witnesses. 2 from the OT, the olive trees, and 2 from the NT, the candlesticks. Those from the OT already served God in the OT. The 2 candlesticks will serve God during those 42 months given to Satan. The 4 witnesses are symbolized here:

"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,"

Having eyes to see everything that goes on is symbolic of a witness redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Just like the 24 elders redeemed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh, 12 from the OT, and 12 from the NT. In chapter 11, John gives a more relatable view of the 4 witnesses.

 

[Timtofly]

All die - its a reality called mortality - even Christ died and was dead (fully) and His Father raised him (only man to be given immortality!)
F2F

No such thing as "given immortality". Immortality is Greek philosophy. Paul used Greek words, but certainly did not introduce Greek concepts into God's Word. Some early church theologians were influenced by Greek philosophy, and their theology watered down the understanding of Scripture.

Jesus was not the only one that was resurrected. Jesus was not the first human born to enter heaven. Moses and Elijah were already in Paradise before the Cross, because they could come to earth as needed. They came at the mount of Transfiguration event. Lazarus was resurrected and was dead longer than the body of Jesus was in the tomb. Lazarus was dead for 4 days. That was not a near death experience. Lazarus was already comfortable and enjoying Abraham's bosom. Some claim Lazarus did not leave Abraham's bosom. So where was he for 4 days, heaven?

This physical body is called mortal. We are the living dead, in death. We are born into death at conception. Mortal does not just mean a state after this physical life. This physical life is the very state of death. At physical death, the redeemed stop being in death, and are now in eternal life.

That is the difference between the definition of mortal and the definition of immortal. One is a state of death. The other is a state of life. No one on earth can be a literal immortal. Except Moses and Elijah, as they were on the earth in a state no longer of death. They had physical bodies.

Paul referred to Jesus as the firstborn among the dead. That does not mean resurrected. That means born. Jesus was not born with Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Jesus had a permanent incorruptible physical body. He was the firstborn of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, who did not have Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is what firstborn means. Jesus did not have to physically die to be free of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Jesus never had Adam's dead corruptible flesh since conception of the Holy Spirit.

Many die and remain dead for all eternity. They are never given eternal life at all. So physically dying is not entering death. Living as a mortal is already being in death. All that happens at physical death, is they no longer have this physical body, as it returned to dust.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Yet your the one who just contradicted Jesus

SMH

 

[ewq1938]

No, its rather clear, all die in Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:22
Truth isn't easy...its confronting and difficult to digest.
F2F

Not all will die.

1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

I guess this is a mystery to you?

 

[face2face]

Not all will die.

1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

I guess this is a mystery to you?

Where it states "we shall not all sleep" as to mean, not all will die in the Lord, referring to those alive at his coming.

Context: There were men among the Corinthian brethren who denied the resurrection.

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

You really need to follow Paul's thoughts in that chapter and not pluck one verse which you think supports your wrong teaching.

F2F

 

[face2face]

No such thing as "given immortality".

Immortality is "put on" or "clothed"

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinth 15.

When something is "put on", it's given (a gift).

Christ was the firstfruits.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Do you deny a "Future" New Heaven and Earth, Revelation 21:1-5?

Why would you argue against the correct method of interpreting the Revelation only to quote the New Heaven and Earth which is at the end of the book? You did this with Daniel 2,7&9
Very odd!

 

[face2face]

Your claims are false, the prince to come destroys the city and causes abomination and desolation up to the "Consummation" or the "Ultimate End", you give complete disregard to this fact in scripture, as the "Consummation" is future unfulfilled

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The question was as straight forward as I could put it.

When was the covenant confirmed by God?

There are many verses in the Epistles which answer this for you.

Take me there.

F2F

 

[face2face]

The "He" seen below isn't God as you claim, it's (the prince) that destroys the city and makes abomination and desolation up to the "Consummation"

Daniel 9:26-27KJV
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

All I'm asking is when was the covenant of God confirmed?
Not long after that event the order of sacrifices ceased.
F2F

 

[face2face]

@Truth7t7 everytime you post and resist you are proving that the continous historic method is the correct one for interpreting both Daniel and the Revelation.



Is this revealed to us in a continuous historic method?

Now you can quote the crushing rock as being in the future; and I agree but that does not change the method of revealing the events of this prophecy. They are given in order and now interpreted in a historical method.



Daniel 2 is a view of the Kingdoms of Men through mans eyes while Daniel 7 is the view of the kingdoms of men through God's eyes.

Each given in historical order.

Now are you ready to better understand the Revelation or are you holding to your "everything is future" nonsense?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Timtofly

Immortality means deathlessness of body, an incorruptible bodily condition of equality with the angels (as per Luke 20:36), it will be like the present condition of the Lord Jesus Christ himself and note that key word!

He will transform the body of our humiliation so that it may be conformed to the body of his glory Phil 3:22

This comes by the putting on of immortality.

Its being transformed from one state (sins flesh) to divine nature - Christ being the firstfruits!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Jesus was not the only one that was resurrected.

Though the only one resurrected to eternal life. (he is the firstfruits of them that sleep)

Jesus was not the first human born to enter heaven.

He is the only man to have entered Heaven and likely to that way for a very long time! Earth is the reward of the Saints. Jesus is bringing the Kingdom "of" Heaven when he comes.

Moses and Elijah were already in Paradise before the Cross,

No they are dead asleep in the Lord awaiting the resurrection.

because they could come to earth as needed. They came at the mount of Transfiguration event.

Raised to comfort the Lord before his great trail.

Lazarus was resurrected and was dead longer than the body of Jesus was in the tomb. Lazarus was dead for 4 days. That was not a near death experience. Lazarus was already comfortable and enjoying Abraham's bosom.

Lol The Lord wept over his dead body and he was fully dead!

Many die and remain dead for all eternity.

That is the only true statement I could find in all of that post.

They are never given eternal life at all.

Correct - permanently dead the memory of them is forgotten - no existence whatsoever.

So physically dying is not entering death. Living as a mortal is already being in death. All that happens at physical death, is they no longer have this physical body, as it returned to dust.

Every part of that person returns to dust.

F2F

 

[Earburner]

All I'm asking is when was the covenant of God confirmed?
Not long after that event the order of sacrifices ceased.
F2F

The true perspective in those verses is to discover which "he" is it that the focus is on.
Except for the latter part of Dan. 9:26, about the prince shall come to destroy the ciity, all of KJV Dan. 9:24-27 is about Christ and what he does. Please read it all.

To help with a clue, what was it that was poured out on the desolate (those who are void of God)?
Acts 2 (Pentecost)
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Now, In verse 24 what six works of Christ were determined upon Daniel's people?

What was it that was poured out?
Ans. That which was determined in verse 24.

Still today, are not born again Christians the recipients of the finished work of Christ, that God poured out on all people, to lead them to repentance, so that they also may become "partakers of the divine nature?
Yes indeed!

 

[Truth7t7]

The question was as straight forward as I could put it.

When was the covenant confirmed by God?

There are many verses in the Epistles which answer this for you.

Take me there.

F2F

Once again (The Covenant Confirmed) in Daniel 9:27 below wasn't by God as you have claimed, (the prince) is the "He" that confirms the covenant

You aren't going to direct my responses in control, directing me about as if your the schoolmaster, Big Smiles!

Your claims are false, the prince to come is the "He" that confirms the covenant and destroys the city and causes abomination and desolation up to the "Consummation" or the "Ultimate End", you give complete disregard to this fact in scripture, as the "Consummation" is future unfulfilled

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

The true perspective in those verses is to discover which "he" is it that the focus is on.
Except for the latter art of Dan. 9:26, about the prince shall come to destroy the ciity, all of KJV Dan. 9:24-27 is about Christ and what he does. Please read it all.

Your claim is false the "He" seen in Daniel 9:27 below isn't Jesus Christ as you claim, Jesus doesn't make abomination or desolation as you falsely suggest

That poured upon the desolate below will be (God's cup of wrath) that takes place at the "Consummation" or "Ultimate End" in the Lord's second coming in fire and final judgement (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

@Truth7t7 everytime you post and resist you are proving that the continous historic method is the correct one for interpreting both Daniel and the Revelation.

View attachment 34030

Is this revealed to us in a continuous historic method?

Now you can quote the crushing rock as being in the future; and I agree but that does not change the method of revealing the events of this prophecy. They are given in order and now interpreted in a historical method.

View attachment 34032

Daniel 2 is a view of the Kingdoms of Men through mans eyes while Daniel 7 is the view of the kingdoms of men through God's eyes.

Each given in historical order.

Now are you ready to better understand the Revelation or are you holding to your "everything is future" nonsense?

F2F

Rome isn't the dragon, and divided Europe isn't the ten horns, you promote standard reformed preterist eschatology

 

[face2face]

Rome isn't the dragon, and divided Europe isn't the ten horns, you promote standard reformed preterist eschatology

Again you missed the point which you constantly make a habit of doing. Is the image and the beast continuous historical revelations?

Yes or no?

 

[face2face]

The true perspective in those verses is to discover which "he" is it that the focus is on.
Except for the latter art of Dan. 9:26, about the prince shall come to destroy the ciity, all of KJV Dan. 9:24-27 is about Christ and what he does. Please read it all.

To help with a clue, what was it that was poured out on the desolate (those who are void of God)?
Acts 2 (Pentecost)
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Now, In verse 24 what six works of Christ were determined upon Daniel's people?

What was it that was poured out?
Ans. That which was determined in verse 24.

Still today, are not born again Christians the recipients of the finished work of Christ, that God poured out on all people, to lead them to repentance, so that they also may become "partakers of the divine nature?
Yes indeed!

@Truth7t7

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

Okay, we need to understand the timeline here! Again continous historic! Christ killed ---> Christ becomes commander & prince of Armies!

It's clear there is a change of roles from "he who is cut off having nothing", Christ being crucified, to now "the people of the Prince" who shall come.

Following the crucifixion of Jesus by "wicked hands" (Acts 2:23) it was determined that the punishment should be made against the "city and the sanctuary" (fact!) which has already been proven in previous posts. They rejected divine mercy "that they who were called to the wedding did not come!"

Such was the attitude of the Jewish nation to the first advent of Messiah the Prince. Consequently, the king (God) being wroth, sent forth "his armies" to destroy the murderers, and burn up their city.

The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Matthew 22:7

The armies of his parable are the "people of the prince" of Daniel's prophecy: fulfilled in the Roman legions which were sent by Divine
decree in AD 67-70 to destroy Jerusalem and scatter the nation.

The Prince from Heaven led this charge!

God uses Gentile powers to discipline His chosen. Nebuchadnezzar is described as "Yahweh's servant" in Jeremiah 25:9. Cyrus, king of Persia was "His anointed" in Isa 45:1. Similarly the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans is, from the Divine viewpoint, the coming of the Son of man" as per Matt 24:27. The Lord Jesus being the Prince; the Roman armies were "his people", and executed his will perfectly.

Hence "come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"

Hope that helps.

F2F