We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[ewq1938]

Scripture describes 3 heavens.
1) where birds fly and where tornados whirl, and Elijah went
2) outer space were orion and the pleaides exist
3) the 3rd heaven where God’s throne resides

Elijah was removed to the 1st heaven where whirlwinds and birds exist, and 9 years later is found still living on the earth and writing a letter to King Jeroham.

Elijah eventually died as have all men.

Enoch was translated to a different location on the earth, did not see death prematurely, but still died later when his 365 years were up, which Hebrews 11:5 and 13 tell us explicitly Enoch did eventually die.

Hebrew 11:4-13 “By faith Abel, By faith Enoch, By faith Noah, By faith Abraham, through faith Sarah, These all died in faith”


Remember, no bad scripture interpretation can break the following truth:

John 3:13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above : )
Romans 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead)

I think this may be the key to understanding what the other verses mean. Paul has just explained what it means to "ascend into heaven". It's a figure of speech! It doesn't mean what the literal, plain reading of the words suggest.


Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens [that is, to bring Christ down from above] : but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, [that is, to bring Christ down from above], but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man.


Its not about anyone being unable to ascend into heaven. It's about bringing Christ down and no one, not even David could do this.

 

[face2face]

Your claims are false, as you bend, twist, tear, and "Add" to scripture

No place in God's word does it show Elijah's death as you falsely claim

You try to add Enoch into (These All Died) False!

The scripture below clearly teaches the reader Enoch was translated and didn't see death, as you bend and twist this truth in false claims

Hebrews 11:5KJV
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Com'on 7! You know you have no evidence to prove he was made immortal and ascended Heaven before he whose right it was to do so with his own blood. The curtain was rent and Heaven opened for the first time to the Son of Man. Just because you are not told you ought not jump to unfounded assumptions.

The Scripture is absolutely clear!

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corin 15:22

Maybe you can prove Enoch was not in Adam?

F2F

 

[ewq1938]

Com'on 7! You know you have no evidence to prove he was made immortal and ascended Heaven before he whose right it was to do so with his own blood. The curtain was rent and Heaven opened for the first time to the Son of Man. Just because you are not told you ought not jump to unfounded assumptions.

The Scripture is absolutely clear!

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corin 15:22

Maybe you can prove Enoch was not in Adam?

There are exceptions to the first death. Most die the first death, some die it twice (those resurected back to mortality) and some will never die the first death such as thsoe who are changed to immortals and then raptured.

 

[quietthinker]

Well that is a very good question! I can reply by saying similar to the two witnesses in Rev 11. They by then the original Gospel had been well and truly defiled. You will note they are persecuted for their beliefs in verse 8...others would miss this of course but the astute can start to piece it together.
F2F

All who have ever believed the gospel throughout human history have been persecuted on some level starting with Able

 

[face2face]

There are exceptions to the first death. Most die the first death, some die it twice (those resurected back to mortality)

Correct

and some will never die the first death such as thsoe who are changed to immortals and then raptured.

True also!

Did we just agree on a post?

F2F

 

[face2face]

All who have ever believed the gospel throughout human history have been persecuted on some level starting with Able

Very true, though I think if you study the first and second century you would be educated on what true suffering really looks like. Yes it happens in parts of the world today - but its not mainstream suffering like it was back then.
F2F

 

[Earburner]

This entire post is a red herring fallacy.

Really??
In the KJV see the NT verses for the words: "garnished" Mat. 12:43-45. (G3885) , and "mansions". John 14:2 (G3438).
Compare both words in their context of how they are used, then find the Textus Receptus Greek Text for their Greek definitions in the Strongs Concordance.

All born again Christians, having the mind of Christ within them, should be able to perceive/discern clearly that 2 Cor. 4:7 is what is being described.
Here is a clue: 1 Cor. 2:12-13.

When Jesus, who was/is sinless, resurrected into New Eternal and Immortal life, what did He literally inherit?
Ans. The identical earthen body of His Being, but now having Eternal life and immortality, along with the very Being of God the Father dwelling within Him, aka the KoG dwelling within Himself.

So then, where is the KoG?
To the disciples, Jesus said: "The KoG is with you (within Jesus Himself), and shall be in you"- John 14:17, 20, Luke 17:21
Therefore, when Jesus comes into our mortal life, we are "swept" clean of sin by His shed blood, and "garnished" by His internal and eternal presence of His Holy Spirit, and are made acceptable to the Father through Jesus, like that of a "mansion". John 14:2.

What Jesus has inherited Himself, through our faith in Him, so shall we.
We each ourselves are actually and quite literally "the promised land", the ("earthen") place of God's dwelling place (through the "living veil" of Jesus- Heb. 10:20), of which God the Father has always desired to dwell within, through much longsuffering.

But hold on, we are far from being done yet.
"In my Father's house are many mansions...".
What is Jesus' Father's HOUSE?
Better yet, not what, but rather WHO is it that is His Father's house? John 14:2.
Well of course, it is Jesus Himself, and we....are the many mansions, that He is now and has been placing within His Father's house, being that of Jesus Himself.*
John 14
[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.

* Note:
To be IN the KoG, is to be IN Jesus.
To be IN Jesus, is to be IN the KoG.

 

[Earburner]

Scripture describes 3 heavens.
1) where birds fly and where tornados whirl, and Elijah went
2) outer space were orion and the pleaides exist
3) the 3rd heaven where God’s throne resides

Elijah was removed to the 1st heaven where whirlwinds and birds exist, and 9 years later is found still living on the earth and writing a letter to King Jeroham.

Elijah eventually died as have all men.

Enoch was translated to a different location on the earth, did not see death prematurely, but still died later when his 365 years were up, which Hebrews 11:5 and 13 tell us explicitly Enoch did eventually die.

Hebrew 11:4-13 “By faith Abel, By faith Enoch, By faith Noah, By faith Abraham, through faith Sarah, These all died in faith”


Remember, no bad scripture interpretation can break the following truth:

John 3:13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Absolutely spot on!
Praise God for His truth revealed, as opposed to the doctrines and the wisdom of men, in "church-ianity".
1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.

Church-ianity is always trying to "wag the dog", and for that, they can't help but do it, because it is built on fabrications, through "the wisdom of men".

 

[Timtofly]

Q)

Okay, I hear you. Only now are you starting to open up to speak of the reality of who Jesus actually is, and not that version of "Jesus in a box", manufactured by different religious brands of "church-ianity".

So now, since Jesus has bodily Ascended into Heaven, at the right hand of God the Father, WHAT has He been eating and drinking for the past 2023 years?
Ans. Absolutely nothing from this world!!

After Pentecost, In which form of His Being was Jesus, when He visited Paul on the Damascus road, and had a conversation with Paul?
Ans. Jesus was in His Holy Spirit form.

Paradise is a place all of it's own. Of course it is not of this world. This earth was different after the Flood, and not even the same as the earth prior to the Flood.

Heaven and Paradise is not a vacuum in space, another vacuum created in the virtual reality of the mind. There is earth and there is heaven directly above the earth, and about the same dimensions as earth. We don't know how big Paradise is, but those in Paradise will be gathered the same way those on earth will be gathered and the meeting place is in the air between heaven and earth. Revelation 7:9-17 has been the scene in Paradise since 30AD. Paradise was there in heaven, but without those people, as they were in Abraham's bosom a part of sheol until the Cross. And it has been 1993 years, not 2023 years.

If they don't eat they don't eat. The Tree of Life is there, so they have food to eat. Manna was mentioned in the OT as food angels ate. Perhaps angels don't eat either? Who knows? Perhaps eating does not sustain life. It is just something one can do, not that they need to do. All we understand is sin and death, and how to avoid decay and waste. We don't even understand eternal life.

So why create false narratives that don't explain anything? Jesus met Paul on the road to Damascus the same way He met Moses and Elijah on the mount of Transfiguration. Same body, and the same attributes. The Holy Spirit is a distinct person of the trinity. You have that same spirit form waiting for you in heaven. That is the final thing you put on at the Second Coming. The soul puts on a physical body, and then puts on the spirit over the physical body. We don't know how it works. We are still limited to the punishment of death in a dead corruptible body. 1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

 

[Earburner]

Paradise is a place all of it's own. Of course it is not of this world. This earth was different after the Flood, and not even the same as the earth prior to the Flood.

Heaven and Paradise is not a vacuum in space, another vacuum created in the virtual reality of the mind. There is earth and there is heaven directly above the earth, and about the same dimensions as earth. We don't know how big Paradise is, but those in Paradise will be gathered the same way those on earth will be gathered and the meeting place is in the air between heaven and earth. Revelation 7:9-17 has been the scene in Paradise since 30AD. Paradise was there in heaven, but without those people, as they were in Abraham's bosom a part of sheol until the Cross. And it has been 1993 years, not 2023 years.

If they don't eat they don't eat. The Tree of Life is there, so they have food to eat. Manna was mentioned in the OT as food angels ate. Perhaps angels don't eat either? Who knows? Perhaps eating does not sustain life. It is just something one can do, not that they need to do. All we understand is sin and death, and how to avoid decay and waste. We don't even understand eternal life.

So why create false narratives that don't explain anything? Jesus met Paul on the road to Damascus the same way He met Moses and Elijah on the mount of Transfiguration. Same body, and the same attributes. The Holy Spirit is a distinct person of the trinity. You have that same spirit form waiting for you in heaven. That is the final thing you put on at the Second Coming. The soul puts on a physical body, and then puts on the spirit over the physical body. We don't know how it works. We are still limited to the punishment of death in a dead corruptible body. 1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Sorry, I don't follow the spoon fed pieces of "human wisdom" from "church-ianity", that you seem to have swallowed.

 

[Timtofly]

John 3:13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Enoch and Elijah were not men. They were redeemed sons of God. That is who are witnesses. Those redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Hebrews 12:1

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight."

 

[face2face]

Enoch and Elijah were not men. They were redeemed sons of God. That is who are witnesses. Those redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Hebrews 12:1

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight."

Tim are you serious?

James 5:17
Elijah was a man of like passions with us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain; and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months.
The ignorance in this forum astounds me at times!
F2F

 

[Earburner]

Enoch and Elijah were not men. They were redeemed sons of God. That is who are witnesses. Those redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Hebrews 12:1

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight."

Hold up on that! No one could have there sins REMOVED, until the shedding of the blood of Christ. Until then, people could have their sins forgiven, and only on an annual basis, through the Temple services.
However, I'm sure that God remembered Enoch and Elijah. And as a result, there names were written in God's book of Remembrance, as shown in Malachi 3:16.

In the days of Christ death and resurrection, and Pentecost, we see them in the 5th seal, under the altar (of the OC.), being given "white robes" to each one, which is the permanent Gift of God's Holy Spirit. Rev. 6:9-11.
No one can enter into the KoG without the shedding of Christ's blood applied to them, and the receiving of God's Gift.
Their names are now written in the "book of Life".

 

[Marty fox]

Scripture describes 3 heavens.
1) where birds fly and where tornados whirl, and Elijah went
2) outer space were orion and the pleaides exist
3) the 3rd heaven where God’s throne resides

Elijah was removed to the 1st heaven where whirlwinds and birds exist, and 9 years later is found still living on the earth and writing a letter to King Jeroham.

Elijah eventually died as have all men.

Enoch was translated to a different location on the earth, did not see death prematurely, but still died later when his 365 years were up, which Hebrews 11:5 and 13 tell us explicitly Enoch did eventually die.

Hebrew 11:4-13 “By faith Abel, By faith Enoch, By faith Noah, By faith Abraham, through faith Sarah, These all died in faith”


Remember, no bad scripture interpretation can break the following truth:

John 3:13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Yes amen Dave here a rule of thumb that I go by

The whole of scripture is greater than the sum of its individual passages. You can not comprehend the bible as a whole without comprehending its individual passages and you cannot comprehend its individual passages without comprehending the bible as a whole. The individual passages can never be interpreted in a way as to conflict the whole of scripture

 

[face2face]

Yes amen Dave here a rule of thumb that I go by

The whole of scripture is greater than the sum of its individual passages. You can not comprehend the bible as a whole without comprehending its individual passages and you cannot comprehend its individual passages without comprehending the bible as a whole. The individual passages can never be interpreted in a way as to conflict the whole of scripture

You can't argue with Hebrews 11:4-13

Hebrew 11:4-13 “By faith Abel, By faith Enoch, By faith Noah, By faith Abraham, through faith Sarah, These all died in faith”

What it shows is how Christians a quick to run away with a passage by taking it out of context and not quoting Scripture with Scripture.

I believe Paul puts it well "comparing spiritual things spiritual".

F2F

 

[Earburner]

Enoch and Elijah were not men. They were redeemed sons of God. That is who are witnesses. Those redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Hebrews 12:1

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight."

Hold up on that! No one could have their sins REMOVED, until the shedding of the blood of Christ. Until then, people could have their sins forgiven, but only on an annual basis, through the Temple services.
However, I'm sure that God remembered Enoch and Elijah. And as a result, their names were written God's book of Remembrance, as shown in Malachi 3:16.

In the days of Christ death and resurrection, and Pentecost, we see them in the 5th seal, under the altar (of the OC.), being given "white robes" to each one, which is the permanent Gift of God's Holy Spirit. Rev. 6:9-11
No one can enter into the KoG without the shed blood of Christ applied to them, and receiving the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

Maybe you can prove Enoch was not in Adam?

Maybe God has His own timetable for certain humans throughout history.

They all were redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They also had a task to fulfill in obedience to God. John pointed out 4 witnesses. 2 Olive trees from the OT. 2 candlesticks from the NT. But only 2 of them will be tasked to stand up to Satan's Babylonian Empire in the future.

 

[Timtofly]

Sorry, I don't follow the spoon fed pieces of "human wisdom" from "church-ianity", that you seem to have swallowed.

Yet you put it into every one of your posts. You think you are different, but post the same theology from the last 1900 years.

 

[face2face]

Maybe God has His own timetable for certain humans throughout history.

Certainly does and its all recorded for us to read.

They all were redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Not yet! Hebrews 11:39-40

They also had a task to fulfill in obedience to God. John pointed out 4 witnesses. 2 Olive trees from the OT. 2 candlesticks from the NT. But only 2 of them will be tasked to stand up to Satan's Babylonian Empire in the future.

The image is standing now Tim have you not read Daniel 2?
F2F

 

[Timtofly]

Tim are you serious?

James 5:17
Elijah was a man of like passions with us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain; and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months.
The ignorance in this forum astounds me at times!
F2F

What is your definition of passion? He sat under a tree and doubted God.

"But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O Lord, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers."

He still returned to Paradise in a chariot of fire. Why do you have a problem with Elijah allowed into Paradise? He was still able to appear on earth whenever necessary, as on the Mount of Transfiguration. Are you just pretending to be ignorant, and using the term flippantly of others?