We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[face2face]

Rom. 14
[8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
[9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
There us a huge difference between those who are dead unto God "already", being still in their sins. When they physically die, they remain dead to themselves, as well as to God.

God is not the God of those who die in that death, but He is the God of the living, being those who are born again, and have died in the Lord.
Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Yes, you must have his words.

 

[face2face]

We’re the two witnesses from the past?​

The words 'witness' and 'past' are inextricably linked. Have you ever known a witness to be from the future? If you were in a court setting (meaning, the is an accuser, a defence and witnesses) and you opted for a witness from the future, you'd be thrown out as having no credibility.

I see where you are coming from, however, if the time of the two witnesses was future of the seven churches, then those alive proceeding their fulfillment would be looking forward, or course those during this time would be strengthened as would those looking back. Prophecy is not about "telling the future", its about seeing the hand of God in the present and history and believing these events are His handywork.

Maybe, its better for the thread to explore precisely what it was they were witnessing?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Zech. 3[8] Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH [who was Jesus, in mortal flesh].

Zech. 4
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive [oil] branches which through the two golden pipes [branches] empty the golden oil [symbolic of God's Holy Spirit] out of themselves?
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.

Of all people who have ever lived, only John the Baptist and Jesus had the Holy Spirit of God at birth.
They are the two witnesses, of which have come already.

No, John the Baptist is dead and buried awaiting the resurrection so are those who represented the two witnesses.

 

[quietthinker]

Maybe, its better for the thread to explore precisely what it was they were witnessing?

now that's a smart question!

 

[face2face]

now that's a smart question!

Rev 11:7 What was their testimony?

 

[Earburner]

True, once a person's life is "in Christ", death is but a sleep.

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 1 Corinth 15:20

i.e they are all still asleep! he is the first to come out of the grave and be immortalised.

Many more to be raised...all the faithful in Adam who rested in faith - Hebrews 11:39-40

F2F

Yes! In every way, Jesus Himself IS the FIRST resurrection.
Now think on this: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST resurrection, on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev. 20:6
How it is that many believe that scripture, other than who Jesus is, "the firstborn from the dead", is due to the corruption that is being spewed out from "church-ianity"

If you are a "partaker of the divine nature", then the only way that could happen, is that you were born again, which is.....right now, you ARE having part in the FIRST resurrection, who is....Jesus. You have been risen with Christ spiritually, but you are now in waiting of His return to receive the gift of His likeness of immortality.

We are ambassadors (priests) for Christ in this present Age of God's Grace, ever since Pentecost.
We are the vessels of His mercy to all others. WE, who are born again, ARE the ones that "come in His Name".
Mat. 23
[39] For I say unto you, Ye shall not see [perceive] me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

There is no literal time limit on the length of this period now of God's Grace. Even Jesus doesn't know WHEN it will end. Therefore, Jesus couldn't say and won't say that it will end in the year 1000, 2023 or even in 5023.
As he said- only His Father knows when the end shall be.

Hear what the Spirit is saying!!
The term "A thousand years" is a figure of speech, being symbolic of a very long time.

Jesus said it Himself: Luke 20:9-16 (please read).
[9] Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man [God the Father Himself] planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen [Israel], and went into a far country for a long time......". Well, since the birth of Christ, it's been 2023 years so far.
You can receive that understanding through reading 2 Peter 3
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [of His salvation], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(Perish means to be destroyed).
Such will be the case for those who are "none of his". Rom. 8:9.

Do not be duped by "the wisdom of men" in "church-ianity", about "a thousand years" of a "millenium" on earth. In God's plan of salvation, there is no such thing.

Church-ianity is "way out in left field", chasing Jewish false teachings of "if/then" prophecies, that had all come to an end for them in 70AD. The only promise that's available to them, is now under the NC, to believe in their Messiah. And if not, then they are lost, just as much as any Gentile who refuses to believe. There are no second chances for anyone!

1 Cor. 2[5] That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.

 

[Earburner]

I see where you are coming from, however, if the time of the two witnesses was future of the seven churches, then those alive proceeding their fulfillment would be looking forward, or course those during this time would be strengthened as would those looking back. Prophecy is not about "telling the future", its about seeing the hand of God in the present and history and believing these events are His handywork.

Maybe, its better for the thread to explore precisely what it was they were witnessing?

F2F

My post #420:
"Actually, the two witnesses were John the Baptist and Jesus. In all the world, they were the only ones who were born of the Holy Spirit, HAVING the Holy Spirit at birth.

John the baptist is a WITNESS to who Jesus Is, and Jesus is a WITNESS TO WHO God is."

Mat. 11
[27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

 

[face2face]

My post #420:
"Actually, the two witnesses were John the Baptist and Jesus. In all the world, they were the only ones who were born of the Holy Spirit, HAVING the Holy Spirit at birth.

John the baptist is a WITNESS to who Jesus Is, and Jesus is a WITNESS TO WHO God is."

Mat. 11
[27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

I think if I pushed you to provide real context for Rev 11 you would struggle.
Let's leave it for now.
F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Rev 11:7 What was their testimony?

Yes, what was their testimony? I'll let those who think they know who the witnesses are witness to that, then we can ask further questions on their testimony.

 

[ewq1938]

Scripture, and the understanding of God's Holy Spirit (the mind of Christ) opposes your view.
1 Thes. 4:12-18
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [in Jesus], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God [who is within Jesus] bring with him.

So then, for those who have physically died in Christ, but "shall never die"** spiritually, where are they coming from, when Jesus returns in His immortality?
Ans. Heavenly Jerusalem, aka paradise.
Please see and digest all of Gal. 4.

We each ourselves, who are born again, are literally the individual "lively stones" ***[stones for building], called the Heavenly city of New Jerusalem. It's not about literal buildings, as we know of in this world.

WE each ARE a temple (mansions) in which both God the Father and the Son dwell in.
Jesus Himself, IS literally His "Father's House", the place of God's dwelling, and we are "the many "mansions", that Jesus is placing there.

**Note: John 11:26
*** 1 Peter 2:5

This entire post is a red herring fallacy.

 

[face2face]

Yes, what was their testimony? I'll let those who think they know who the witnesses are witness to that, then we can ask further questions on their testimony.

Quiet,
Before one can interpret the Revelation one needs to take holistic high level view of what is taking place.
Here is an example:

Why 7 visions?
Are they strategically placed? and for what reason?
This is one of two columns - this one is the things concerning the Kingdom of God on earth.
The other column is the things concerning the kingdoms of men.
Many Christians just don't have the tools to interpret the Revelation, which is why so many don't even try.
It's most definitely a book which needs a lot of guidance.
F2F

 

[DavidTaylor]

I Agree, the poster denies the plain scripture before the eyes, Elijah went up in a whirlwind to heaven, its that simple

Scripture describes 3 heavens.
1) where birds fly and where tornados whirl, and Elijah went
2) outer space were orion and the pleaides exist
3) the 3rd heaven where God’s throne resides

Elijah was removed to the 1st heaven where whirlwinds and birds exist, and 9 years later is found still living on the earth and writing a letter to King Jeroham.

Elijah eventually died as have all men.

Enoch was translated to a different location on the earth, did not see death prematurely, but still died later when his 365 years were up, which Hebrews 11:5 and 13 tell us explicitly Enoch did eventually die.

Hebrew 11:4-13 “By faith Abel, By faith Enoch, By faith Noah, By faith Abraham, through faith Sarah, These all died in faith”


Remember, no bad scripture interpretation can break the following truth:

John 3:13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

 

[face2face]

Scripture describes 3 heavens.
1) where birds fly and where tornados whirl, and Elijah went
2) outer space were orion and the pleaides exist
3) the 3rd heaven where God’s throne resides

David, three is another way to interpret the 3 Heavens - have you considered alternative views?
F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Quiet,
Before one can interpret the Revelation one needs to take holistic high level view of what is taking place.
Here is an example:
View attachment 34504
Why 7 visions?
Are they strategically placed? and for what reason?
This is one of two columns - this one is the things concerning the Kingdom of God on earth.
The other column is the things concerning the kingdoms of men.
Many Christians just don't have the tools to interpret the Revelation, which is why so many don't even try.
It's most definitely a book which needs a lot of guidance.
F2F

It appears you have a lot of cognitive information F2F, but my question is what do you witness to?

 

[DavidTaylor]

David, three is another way to interpret the 3 Heavens - have you considered alternative views?
F2F

The Hebrew word for Heaven is: šāmayim H8064
The Greek word for Heaven is Ouranus G3772.
Both are used to describe the 3 types of the English word Heaven.

Heaven 1 where birds fly)
Hos 2:18 - And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven (šāmayim H8064) and with the creeping things of the ground

also where whirlwinds exist:

Isa 41:15 - Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff. Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel”

Heaven 2 outerspace no whirlwinds)
Job 38:31 - Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven (šāmayim H8064)?

Heaven 3 no whirlwinds)
Psa 11:4 - The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven (šāmayim H8064)

Do you know of a 4th different type of Heaven (šāmayim H8064)?

 

[face2face]

It appears you have a lot of cognitive information F2F, but my question is what do you witness to?

Well that is a very good question! I can reply by saying similar to the two witnesses in Rev 11. They by then the original Gospel had been well and truly defiled. You will note they are persecuted for their beliefs in verse 8...others would miss this of course but the astute can start to piece it together.
F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Scripture describes 3 heavens.
1) where birds fly and where tornados whirl, and Elijah went
2) outer space were orion and the pleaides exist
3) the 3rd heaven where God’s throne resides

Elijah was removed to the 1st heaven where whirlwinds and birds exist, and 9 years later is found still living on the earth and writing a letter to King Jeroham.

Elijah eventually died as have all men.

Enoch was translated to a different location on the earth, did not see death prematurely, but still died later when his 365 years were up, which Hebrews 11:5 and 13 tell us explicitly Enoch did eventually die.

Hebrew 11:4-13 “By faith Abel, By faith Enoch, By faith Noah, By faith Abraham, through faith Sarah, These all died in faith”


Remember, no bad scripture interpretation can break the following truth:

John 3:13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

You have engaged intellectual dishonesty in how you have quoted Hebrews in regard to Enoch, David

 

[face2face]

The Hebrew word for Heaven is: šāmayim H8064
The Greek word for Heaven is Ouranus G3772.
Both are used to describe the 3 types of the English word Heaven.

Heaven 1 where birds fly)
Hos 2:18 - And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven (šāmayim H8064) and with the creeping things of the ground

also where whirlwinds exist:

Isa 41:15 - Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff. Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel”

Heaven 2 outerspace no whirlwinds)
Job 38:31 - Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven (šāmayim H8064)?

Heaven 3 no whirlwinds)
Psa 11:4 - The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven (šāmayim H8064)

Do you know of a 4th different type of Heaven (šāmayim H8064)?

David, I see where you are coming from now - I thought you were referring to the 3 "Heaven & Earth" periods (Rev 21 etc)! You may proceed...

 

[face2face]

Scripture describes 3 heavens.
1) where birds fly and where tornados whirl, and Elijah went
2) outer space were orion and the pleaides exist
3) the 3rd heaven where God’s throne resides

Elijah was removed to the 1st heaven where whirlwinds and birds exist, and 9 years later is found still living on the earth and writing a letter to King Jeroham.

Elijah eventually died as have all men.

Enoch was translated to a different location on the earth, did not see death prematurely, but still died later when his 365 years were up, which Hebrews 11:5 and 13 tell us explicitly Enoch did eventually die.

Hebrew 11:4-13 “By faith Abel, By faith Enoch, By faith Noah, By faith Abraham, through faith Sarah, These all died in faith”


Remember, no bad scripture interpretation can break the following truth:

John 3:13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

I also agree all men in Adam die - we just dont know how, where and buried by whom!
F2F

 

[Truth7t7]

Elijah eventually died as have all men.

Enoch was translated to a different location on the earth, did not see death prematurely, but still died later when his 365 years were up, which Hebrews 11:5 and 13 tell us explicitly Enoch did eventually die.

Hebrew 11:4-13 “By faith Abel, By faith Enoch, By faith Noah, By faith Abraham, through faith Sarah, These all died in faith”

Your claims are false, as you bend, twist, tear, and "Add" to scripture

No place in God's word does it show Elijah's death as you falsely claim

You try to add Enoch into (These All Died) False!

The scripture below clearly teaches the reader Enoch was translated and didn't see death, as you bend and twist this truth in false claims

Hebrews 11:5KJV
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.