We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[Timtofly]

Hold up on that! No one could have there sins REMOVED, until the shedding of the blood of Christ. Until then, people could have their sins forgiven, and only on an annual basis, through the Temple services.
However, I'm sure that God remembered Enoch and Elijah. And as a result, there names were written in God's book of Remembrance, as shown in Malachi 3:16.

In the days of Christ death and resurrection, and Pentecost, we see them in the 5th seal, under the altar (of the OC.), being given "white robes" to each one, which is the permanent Gift of God's Holy Spirit. Rev. 6:9-11.
No one can enter into the KoG without the shedding of Christ's blood applied to them, and the receiving of God's Gift.
Their names are now written in the "book of Life".

Their names were already in the Lamb's book of life before creation, Genesis 1:1. Are you stuck in human perspective, instead of God's perspective?

 

[Timtofly]

Certainly does and its all recorded for us to read.

Not yet! Hebrews 11:39-40

The image is standing now Tim have you not read Daniel 2?
F2F

The soul leaving Adam's dead flesh is considered death. Being translated is a form of death.


"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Even those in Paradise are not fully restored. The full restoration happens at the Second Coming the 5th and 6th Seal. That is putting on the spirit. John calls it putting on a robe of white. Paul calls it putting on immortality. That is not physical. That is the third part of the image of God. Jesus as Messiah accomplished the physical, which allowed those in Abraham's bosom to put on a physical body. But the two Olive Trees already had a physical body before everybody else waiting in Abraham's bosom. They already could enter Paradise even before Jesus was born.

The four witnesses do have a symbolic form written in chapter 4 even before chapter 11.

Enoch came back as Elijah. But all arrived in Paradise after the Cross. No one is still waiting in Abraham's bosom for the physical resurrection. That did indeed happened because of the physical Cross, and the physical resurrection the Cross afforded.

Even at the rapture death has to occur to shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh. It just happens so fast, no soul will realize it happened until seconds after.

The image of Daniel 2 was destroyed at the Reformation. The 6th Kingdom which is in a state of death itself is humanity's current state. Not sure what that has to do with the 2 witnesses. They will prophecy during the 8th kingdom. The 8th kingdom is Satan's Babylonian Empire of the Abomination of Desolation.

 

[face2face]

What is your definition of passion? He sat under a tree and doubted God.

"But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O Lord, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers."

He still returned to Paradise in a chariot of fire. Why do you have a problem with Elijah allowed into Paradise? He was still able to appear on earth whenever necessary, as on the Mount of Transfiguration. Are you just pretending to be ignorant, and using the term flippantly of others?

A man tempted by sin's flesh. a man of weakness like all in Adam!
All such men have the condemnation of death working in their members and return to the dust.
You also!

 

[face2face]

Enoch came back as Elijah.

 

[Timtofly]

A man tempted by sin's flesh. a man of weakness like all in Adam!
All such men have the condemnation of death working in their members and return to the dust.
You also!

I think you are confusing passion with temptation and lust.

 

[Timtofly]

Can you prove he did not?

 

[face2face]

I think you are confusing passion with temptation and lust.

No Tim. Elijah was a distinguished prophet, but, nevertheless, of our nature, with its associated failings.
Just like you - that's the point!
Back to your cave to create a new concoction.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Can you prove he did not?

Why prove something untold?

 

[Timtofly]

No Tim. Elijah was a distinguished prophet, but, nevertheless, of our nature, with its associated failings.
Just like you - that's the point!
Back to your cave to create a new concoction.
F2F

So, you have never doubted God? Point to one verse in Scripture claiming Elijah fought temptation and lust. Then look up the definition of passion.

 

[Timtofly]

Why prove something untold?

Or is it explained, since you like puzzles and symbolism?

 

[face2face]

So, you have never doubted God? Point to one verse in Scripture claiming Elijah fought temptation and lust. Then look up the definition of passion.

Tim, it all depends whether you are teachable and willing to allow the Word to open so it can give its light.

Let me ask you this.

Is James 5:17 written in the positive or negative tense?

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Jas 5:17.

The ESV has translated it correctly.

The occasion is recorded in 1 Kings 17:1. However, the reference does not state that Elijah prayed, though that fact is endorsed by the words of James. Elijah's request, of course, was not made out of petty spite or personal retaliation against Israel because
his message had not been accepted, but in order to humble the kingdom of Ahab.

But Elijah did have a problem Tim!

Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the LORD’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets.1 Kings 18:22

What was his problem?

And now I am gathering a couple of sticks that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it and die.” 1 Ki 17:12. (note: A gentile family)

Lets see if you can piece this together.

What did God teach Elijah?

F2F

 

[Earburner]

What is your definition of passion? He sat under a tree and doubted God.

"But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O Lord, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers."

He still returned to Paradise in a chariot of fire. Why do you have a problem with Elijah allowed into Paradise? He was still able to appear on earth whenever necessary, as on the Mount of Transfiguration. Are you just pretending to be ignorant, and using the term flippantly of others?

Let's straighten this out right now, on exactly what took place, concerning the transfiguration of Jesus.
John 1
[49] Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
[50] Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Mark 9
[2] And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
[3] And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
[4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
[5] And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
[6] For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
In other words, because of the brightness of Jesus' appearance, with heaven opened, fear gripped Peter's mind and didn't really know who he saw, and therefore he didn't know what to say about it.

Elijah had been dead for approximately 700 years, and Moses for approximately 1500 years. What paintings, pictures or busts of either one did they have, for a reference of remembrance as to what they looked like?
Ans. They had nothing. Images of people, such as Elijah and Moses, were non-existence, because of the Commandments.

So what did the three disciples see in the blinding light of Jesus' transfiguration??
Just exactly what Jesus SAID they would see!!
Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

 

[Earburner]

Their names were already in the Lamb's book of life before creation, Genesis 1:1. Are you stuck in human perspective, instead of God's perspective?

That is not how to understand the "foreknowledge" of God. The plan of our salvation, by the Grace of God the Father, through His Son, is what was "preordained". Not people!!

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, it all depends whether you are teachable and willing to allow the Word to open so it can give its light.

Let me ask you this.

Is James 5:17 written in the positive or negative tense?

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Jas 5:17.

The ESV has translated it correctly.

The occasion is recorded in 1 Kings 17:1. However, the reference does not state that Elijah prayed, though that fact is endorsed by the words of James. Elijah's request, of course, was not made out of petty spite or personal retaliation against Israel because
his message had not been accepted, but in order to humble the kingdom of Ahab.

But Elijah did have a problem Tim!

Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the LORD’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets.1 Kings 18:22

What was his problem?

And now I am gathering a couple of sticks that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it and die.” 1 Ki 17:12. (note: A gentile family)

Lets see if you can piece this together.

What did God teach Elijah?

F2F

So all of humanity has a direct connection to God and can call down fire from heaven? You are not making any sense. You implied Elijah was just a sinner and never went to heaven, yet you have no proof of your claims. Then the very thing that sets Elijah apart, you claim is an attribute of every human ever born.

Well I hope you have the nature of Christ, else you will be headed anywhere but heaven.

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

 

[Timtofly]

Let's straighten this out right now, on exactly what took place, concerning the transfiguration of Jesus.
John 1
[49] Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
[50] Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Mark 9
[2] And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
[3] And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
[4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
[5] And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
[6] For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
In other words, because of the brightness of Jesus' appearance, with heaven opened, fear gripped Peter's mind and didn't really know who he saw, and therefore he didn't know what to say about it.

Elijah had been dead for approximately 700 years, and Moses for approximately 1500 years. What paintings, pictures or busts of either one did they have, for a reference of remembrance as to what they looked like?
Ans. They had nothing. Images of people, such as Elijah and Moses, were non-existence, because of the Commandments.

So what did the three disciples see in the blinding light of Jesus' transfiguration??
Just exactly what Jesus SAID they would see!!
Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Sorry but Elijah and Moses are sons of God, not angels.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

I agree. The reason why God chose Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration was because they represented the law and the prophets. The God spoke from heaven to the apostles and said, "Hear Him." And Moses and Elijah disappeared. That era was done. But I do believe they were there to be the two witnesses to preach to the Jews in Jerusalem during the Great Tribulation for them to join the Church of Jesus.

 

[Earburner]

Tim, it all depends whether you are teachable and willing to allow the Word to open so it can give its light.

Let me ask you this.

Is James 5:17 written in the positive or negative tense?

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Jas 5:17.

The ESV has translated it correctly.

The occasion is recorded in 1 Kings 17:1. However, the reference does not state that Elijah prayed, though that fact is endorsed by the words of James. Elijah's request, of course, was not made out of petty spite or personal retaliation against Israel because
his message had not been accepted, but in order to humble the kingdom of Ahab.

But Elijah did have a problem Tim!

Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the LORD’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets.1 Kings 18:22

What was his problem?

And now I am gathering a couple of sticks that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it and die.” 1 Ki 17:12. (note: A gentile family)

Lets see if you can piece this together.

What did God teach Elijah?

F2F

Let me interject here for a moment, with a biblical and Godly point, that shall enhance your directive, without telling it outright.
James 5[17] Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Such a length of time as that is equivalent to 1260 days, and/or 42 months.
If I recall correctly, two people, in a joint ministry, of God's "anointing", was allotted an identical time period to accomplish the work assigned through them. One lost his head over it, and the other's father, did assemble two sticks for him and his son's fate.
After the completion of those two events, of 6 months and 3 years, it surely did "rain" again, in fact now equally and everywhere on all the earth, it has "poured", ever since Pentecost, even to this day.

See the prophetic words in KJV Daniel 9:27
[27] And he [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined [vs. 24]** shall be poured upon the desolate [those who are void of God].

The fulfillment in Acts 2:16-18
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

**Note: Dan. 9:24 describes the 6 works of God, that Jesus was to "finish".

 

[face2face]

So all of humanity has a direct connection to God and can call down fire from heaven? You are not making any sense. You implied Elijah was just a sinner and never went to heaven, yet you have no proof of your claims. Then the very thing that sets Elijah apart, you claim is an attribute of every human ever born.

Well I hope you have the nature of Christ, else you will be headed anywhere but heaven.

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Interesting. It might be that you find it difficult to comprehend the text? do you have a problem with comprehension in general? I'm not saying this to have ago, it's a sincere question. I was hoping you would try to piece together precisely what Elijah's struggle but all I got was the above.

Go back and read the verses taking note of the highlighted words.

 

[face2face]

Let me interject here for a moment, with a biblical and Godly point, that shall enhance your directive, without telling it outright.
James 5[17] Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Such a length of time as that is equivalent to 1260 days, and/or 42 months.

Nice pick up Earburner!
Each instance is unrelated, though using the same diving principle of judgement against an adversary.
F2F

 

[No Pre-TB]

The fourth empire was the Roman Empire.

Question here...

Daniel 7 mentions 4 beasts.
3And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

1. The first was like a lion,
2. a second, like to a bear
3. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard,
4. an Unknown beast

I don't think anyone disagrees that the lion represented the Babylonian empire, the bear represented the Median-Persian alliance and the leopard was Grecian. Now, you will say Rome came afterward. Yes it did, but does that mean it is Roman? In John's time, the 4th beast was and is not. How can it be Rome if it "was not"? Don't confuse the head's with the 4th beast of the sea. By the time the 4th beast comes, the head's no longer wear crowns.

How do you explain Rome existing in John's time and yet it was not?