We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[Earburner]

Sorry but Elijah and Moses are sons of God, not angels.

You didn't comprehend the depth and truth of what EXACTLY the transfiguration actually REVEALED.
Jesus SAID what they would see, which no one ever gets to see. Except maybe in a dream.
Because Jesus said that THEY would SEE what He said, He Himself fulfilled and delivered the reality of it to them.
John 1
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

It's time for church-ianity, and the Saints that are involved with it, to put the fictional coloring books away, and accept the truth, of which has been terribly misconstrued by them, through "the wisdom of men".

1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.

 

[Earburner]

Question here...

Daniel 7 mentions 4 beasts.
3And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

1. The first was like a lion,
2. a second, like to a bear
3. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard,
4. an Unknown beast

I don't think anyone disagrees that the lion represented the Babylonian empire, the bear represented the Median-Persian alliance and the leopard was Grecian. Now, you will say Rome came afterward. Yes it did, but does that mean it is Roman? In John's time, the 4th beast was and is not. How can it be Rome if it "was not"? Don't confuse the head's with the 4th beast of the sea. By the time the 4th beast comes, the head's no longer wear crowns.

How do you explain Rome existing in John's time and yet it was not?

The fourth beast has been continuously evolving. It's final reality and manifestation, is now coming through the image of it, which is the UN. The WEF, which has stepped out through the UN, is the "mouth"/voice of the 10H Beast.
The actual 10 horns (militaristic countries are yet to be acquired).

That evolved 10H Beast will be far different than all the militaristic empires before it, being that of a Global Economic Empire, which has never been, ever before. The image of the Beast will legislate and enforce the mark of the beast upon all the world.

The "mark of the beast" implies an economic situation of mandatory compliance (worship), whereby no one can buy or sell without it. We are in the beginning stages of it NOW!!

"Church-ianity" has been misguided for years, and are fully asleep, of which I don't believe that they can be woken out of it.

 

[Timtofly]

How do you explain Rome existing in John's time and yet it was not?

That phrase does not apply to the 4th kingdom at all. Why do people keep thinking Revelation was in the first century, as John's time? Preterism will never work. What was history cannot be explained as the final generation on earth. The final generation was not 1900 years ago.

John was a witness to the last 1,000 + years of current creation. John was not talking about Rome at all. Even those of the Reformation knew their current catholic pope as an AC was not the 4th kingdom. The RCC was not the same Roman government as the 4th beast. In Revelation 17, John said 5 kingdoms had fallen. Even the 5th kingdom no longer existed in "John's time". John was already experiencing today's generation in Revelation, since Revelation chapter 4. It was the 6th head and kingdom that was mortally wounded that was revived by Satan. Satan is the 7th head, but the 8th kingdom. Satan is the beast that was, and is not. You all should figure out why the 6th kingdom was in a state of death, not the 4th kingdom of the first century, of 1900 years ago.

The 5th kingdom died during the Reformation. There is hardly anything in Scripture about the 6th kingdom, thus no one talks about it. Daniel 2 only covers 5 kingdoms, that ended with the ten toe profile. Daniel never sees the 6th kingdom. No one in the first century saw the 5th kingdom. They were still living in the 4th kingdom. The 4th kingdom did not even end in 70AD. The 7th kingdom is not even part of this beast called a dragon. This beast has 7 heads, and there are 8 kingdoms mentioned. The 7th kingdom is not one of the heads. The 7th kingdom is related to the stone cut out without hands in Daniel 2.

"Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands"

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

Who is the King of this 7th kingdom? This kingdom has left the 6th kingdom in a state of death, never allowing the 6th kingdom to ever dominate the entire world like the first 4 kingdoms did. But in describing the 7th kingdom John said:

"and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space"

This is in contrast with the next thought:

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

One can try to say the 8th kingdom immediately follows the 6th kingdom, but that is not how chronological progression works. In order for an 8th kingdom to be declared, the 7th kingdom has to be declared. The 7th kingdom was declared at the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15. This 7th kingdom is still everlasting as it started at the Cross. But there is a point John makes that an 8th kingdom may also happen that will only last for 42 months. This is the 3.5 years of the AoD set up, and the ten horns come into play.

How can some posters explain 8 world kingdoms all happening prior to 70AD? Then some Amil claim the 7th kingdom has been the only kingdom since 30AD. Evidently the 5th and 6th kingdom never happened in their imagined interpretation. Although they acknowledge the 8th kingdom showing up just prior to the Second Coming, even if they don't call it the 8th kingdom.

 

[Timtofly]

You didn't comprehend the depth and truth of what EXACTLY the transfiguration actually REVEALED.
Jesus SAID what they would see, which no one ever gets to see. Except maybe in a dream.
Because Jesus said that THEY would SEE what He said, He Himself fulfilled and delivered the reality of it to them.
John 1
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

It's time for church-ianity, and the Saints that are involved with it, to put the fictional coloring books away, and accept the truth, of which has been terribly misconstrued by them, through "the wisdom of men".

1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.

So you think the deep deep spiritual truth is angels descending and ascending?

The deeper truth is that Elijah and Moses were redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh over a thousand years prior to the Cross and those in Abraham's bosom. They are the 2 witnesses standing before God from the OT era. They represent what it is to be a son of God out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Elijah has come, especially if Elijah was Enoch sent back prior to that terrible day of the Lord. Otherwise you have 3 humans instead of 2 where Scripture only gives us 2, not 3.

 

[Timtofly]

The fourth beast has been continuously evolving. It's final reality and manifestation, is now coming through the image of it, which is the UN. The WEF, which has stepped out through the UN, is the "mouth"/voice of the 10H Beast.
The actual 10 horns (militaristic countries are yet to be acquired).

That evolved 10H Beast will be far different than all the militaristic empires before it, being that of a Global Economic Empire, which has never been, ever before. The image of the Beast will legislate and enforce the mark of the beast upon all the world.

The "mark of the beast" implies an economic situation of mandatory compliance (worship), whereby no one can buy or sell without it. We are in the beginning stages of it NOW!!

"Church-ianity" has been misguided for years, and are fully asleep, of which I don't believe that they cannot be woken out of it.

The problem is that all of your so-called church-ianity thinks this way. You are not the lone ranger of this point. The 4th kingdom did not evolve. We are in the 6th kingdom, and the first 5, all of Daniel 2, died out in the Reformation.

 

[No Pre-TB]

he fourth beast has been continuously evolving.

I find it difficult for it to evolve if it was and is not. You cannot evolve when you cease.

It's final reality and manifestation, is now coming through the image of it, which is the UN.

I prefer to deal with what the Bible says. I don't want to get into "what we think", but rather what God tells us.

The "mark of the beast" implies an economic situation of mandatory compliance

If that were true, why does God's word provide a way out from it? Specifically, that it is not mandatory and this is the perseverance of the saints. Only those who have the mark will be punished. Scripture gives us an option.

Church-ianity" has been misguided for years

There is always a remnant that is not misguided. I wouldn't lump everyone into the same bag.

 

[Earburner]

So you think the deep deep spiritual truth is angels descending and ascending?

The deeper truth is that Elijah and Moses were redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh over a thousand years prior to the Cross and those in Abraham's bosom. They are the 2 witnesses standing before God from the OT era. They represent what it is to be a son of God out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Elijah has come, especially if Elijah was Enoch sent back prior to that terrible day of the Lord. Otherwise you have 3 humans instead of 2 where Scripture only gives us 2, not 3.

I am perceiving that you have RCC understandings.

 

[Earburner]

I find it difficult for it to evolve if it was and is not. You cannot evolve when you cease.

I prefer to deal with what the Bible says. I don't want to get into "what we think", but rather what God tells us.

If that were true, why does God's word provide a way out from it? Specifically, that it is not mandatory and this is the perseverance of the saints. Only those who have the mark will be punished. Scripture gives us an option.

There is always a remnant that is not misguided. I wouldn't lump everyone into the same bag.

To all of your segmented posts, all prophecy has physical manifestations on earth. Those that be of God, as well of those that be of satan.
Either way, what is symbolically and prophetically spoken, will be manifested in the physical form of it's own reality.

The mark of the beast IS NOT going to come upon the world in the manner of how church-ianity portrays it. In fact, it is now being framed and tested among the nations, being casually called "Digital money". No one is going to crash your door in to "take the mark". It will all take place by your own volition, because we all are handling it right NOW with our credit/debit cards. So then, in that regard, we all have a choice to make. In all reality, who am I really trusting for all my NEEDS??

For any born again Christian to not correctly discern it, and then ignore it, invites grave danger and misguidance of how to "walk" in the midst of it.

The religions of "church-ianity" will not help you or your understanding, and more often than not, shall hinder you and keep you from the mind of Christ, WHO IS within you, and is readily willing to give you "the faith of Himself" and not that of your own faith from your own mind...or even their form of it.

In the end, "church-ianity" WILL lead you very far astray, concerning prophecy and it's manifestations.
Zech. 4
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying,
1. Not by might, [internal effort of intense study].
2. nor by power, [external persuasion by religion].
3. but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
[the mind/Spirit of Christ within you].

Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
See also 1 Cor. 2:5.

 

[Earburner]

I find it difficult for it to evolve if it was and is not. You cannot evolve when you cease.

The Roman Empire prophetically and historically split in two, and divided into the RCC (one leg), and also the people of the RE dispersed into Europe (the other leg), thus turning into the feet of iron mixed with miry clay, of which can not join together, and therefore does not hold together, of which they continue to try, even to this day, being that of "The European Union". Daniel 2:31-45.
Notice that the "stone that was cut without hands" (Jesus), and what part of the statue it smashes upon. Yes, it's the feet and the ten toes of part iron and part miry clay.

Picture of Nebuchadnezzar's statue in his dream, as revealed to him by God, through Daniel

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7d/7a/ee/7d7aeea30a3697bc1fd30e4ad4a9089e.jpg

As I did say, the Roman Empire has been evolving to it's final state, it has largely been obscure and hardly noticed. However when it's final state is acheived, it will be the crowning glory of satan: a Global Economic Empire, a worldly empire that has never been before, but was once attempted at, with the Tower of Babel.

It's evolution is seen through the three manifestations of Jesus, in KJV-Daniel 2
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom [Jesus' first manifestation in the flesh],

which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people [Jesus' second manifestation by His Spirit, ever since Pentecost],

but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
[Jesus' third manifestation from Heaven, in the Glory of His Immortality in flaming fire, taking vengeance....KJV-1 Thes. 4:7-10].

 Note: always remember this: since the beginning of the world, the plan of God's Grace and our salvation was kept secret until the day of Jesus' first manifestation in the flesh. Therefore, through all of the OT prophets, never did He tell them in which of the three manifestations of Christ, of when any and all of His prophecies would be fulfilled.

Our clue is in John 5
[39] Search the [OT] scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

However, through Jesus' second manifestation "by His Spirit", we who are born again, have been GIVEN the mind/Spirit of Christ, and are fully equipped to understand what has been fulfilled and when, and what is yet to be, in Jesus' three manifestations.

 

[face2face]

In John's time, the 4th beast was and is not. How can it be Rome if it "was not"?

In John's day though the beast that he saw was that which had already been shown in vision in Rev 13, it had not then been historically manifested, though it was subsequently. As this "beast" goes into perdition, it must yet be manifested in its fulness.

 

[Timtofly]

I am perceiving that you have RCC understandings.

What does that even mean? I have read hundreds of books. Does not mean I think like a RCC. Do I remember every single word found in the Bible, or any book for that matter? I have never made that claim.

 

[Earburner]

What does that even mean? I have read hundreds of books. Does not mean I think like a RCC. Do I remember every single word found in the Bible, or any book for that matter? I have never made that claim.

Though I have referenced 1 Cor. 2:5 many times, apparently you don't understand it, or you have not studied it in it's context.

(In red is about human wisdom; in purple is about God's Wisdom.)
[4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
[7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
[16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Edit: anyone can sign up and attend denominational Bible Colleges and Seminaries by there own choosing, and have a CAREER among the "Clergy", but how many were called and chosen by Christ to do so, only they would know.

Maybe now you might have a better understanding of what Christ said:
Mat. 24
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, [that] I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 

[Timtofly]

Though I have referenced 1 Cor. 2:5 many times, apparently you don't understand it, or you have not studied it in it's context.

(In red is about human wisdom; in purple is about God's Wisdom.)
[4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
[7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
[16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Edit: anyone can sign up and attend denominational Bible Colleges and Seminaries by there own choosing, and have a CAREER among the "Clergy", but how many were called and chosen by Christ to do so, only they would know.

Maybe now you might have a better understanding of what Christ said:
Mat. 24
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, [that] I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I am not claiming to be Christ. Are you?

 

[Earburner]

I am not claiming to be Christ. Are you?

So, it's true, you don't understand 1 Cor. 2. Thanks for letting me know.
Rom. 8:9.....Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Never mind me!
First, you should find out who you are in your relationship to Christ. Only then will you know who I am in Christ.
2 Cor. 5
[17] Therefore IF any man BE IN Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
[18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
[20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
[21] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[Timtofly]

So, it's true, you don't understand 1 Cor. 2. Thanks for letting me know.

Understanding 1 Corinthians 2 is one thing.

That people disagree with your opinions and interpretations is something totally different. Unless you are the Holy Spirit, it is rather pointless telling strangers on an online forum, who you don't know at all, that they lack something, you think you have.

We all think that way, as if we are all jumping to the wrong conclusion.

If this was the Soteriology forum and we were discussing the only means of Salvation you may have a point when people disagree on how to be saved. But when it comes to people's opinions on eschatology, how is it so important that people don't see it your way?

Of course the disagreement of angels and sons of God pops up from time to time, as the forum overlaps into other topics.

 

[Earburner]

Understanding 1 Corinthians 2 is one thing.

That people disagree with your opinions and interpretations is something totally different. Unless you are the Holy Spirit, it is rather pointless telling strangers on an online forum, who you don't know at all, that they lack something, you think you have.

We all think that way, as if we are all jumping to the wrong conclusion.

If this was the Soteriology forum and we were discussing the only means of Salvation you may have a point when people disagree on how to be saved. But when it comes to people's opinions on eschatology, how is it so important that people don't see it your way?

Of course the disagreement of angels and sons of God pops up from time to time, as the forum overlaps into other topics.

Since you are only acknowledging 1 Cor.2, and not expounding on it, my only suggestion for you is to know whether Jesus is counting the hairs on your head from the outside, or is he counting them from the inside.
Rev. 3
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

At the moment, I am not hearing "the mind of Christ" within you, but I am hearing plenty of "wisdom of men" from your own mind, of which is where your faith should NOT stand. 1Cor. 2:5.

 

[Timtofly]

Since you are only acknowledging 1 Cor.2, and not expounding on it, my only suggestion for you is to know whether Jesus is counting the hairs on your head from the outside, or is he counting them from the inside.
Rev. 3
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

At the moment, I am not hearing "the mind of Christ" within you, but I am hearing plenty of "wisdom of men" from your own mind, of which is where your faith should NOT stand. 1Cor. 2:5.

I could say the same thing about your eschatology. I have heard most of what you post, from, as you call it - church-ianity.

 

[Earburner]

I could say the same thing about your eschatology. I have heard most of what you post, from, as you call it - church-ianity.

Lol, in church-ianity, and it's scholarly wisdom of men, you WON'T FIND much in it of what I teach, which is from the Holy Spirit, "the mind of Christ within me".

I am only one of the Lord's "earth-en vessels", which is His "New earth", "wherein dwelleth [God's] Righteousness", while waiting patiently for Jesus' Glorious and fiery appearance from Heaven, "taking vengeance upon all who know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

 

[Earburner]

Maybe now you might have a better understanding of what Christ said:
Mat. 24
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, [that] I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

In my above post #552, you replied:
Timtofly wrote:
"I am not claiming to be Christ. Are you?"

Like most all professing Christians, they do not see/perceive the wisdom of God's meaning in the words of Mat. 24:5.
It's NOT about the few people, who are saying that they themselves are the actual and literal person of Jesus Christ, but rather the "MANY" who are coming to others "in [His] name", saying/agreeing that Jesus Himself is the Christ, "and shall deceive MANY".
Rom. 1
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [aka teaching others, but being unsaved themselves].
1 Cor. 2:5

 

[Davy]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

Boy, there's another one that likes to take God's written Word and BUTCHER IT to try and make it fit their doctrines of men!!

God's "two witnesses" of Revelation 11 HAVE NOT COME YET, and they WILL BE 2 actual persons, for as written there they will prophesy against the beast for 1260 days at the end of this world, and will cause plagues upon the earth with God working through them, just as He did through Moses and Aaron.

Furthermore, Rev.11 tells us when the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit KILLS those two witnesses, and leaves their dead bodies laying the street of JERUSALEM, then ALL nations will SEE their dead bodies laying the street! How can that be? It reveals that ONLY in our times will that event happen, because it relies on SATELLITE TECHNOLOGY for all nations to SEE their dead bodies, via world communications. So yeah, even those in the middle east have cell phones and get on the Internet!

"Wa...w... well you mean, sniff, sniff... that points to the time of the two witnesses can happen only in the 20-21st century?" Yep! That's right!