The Gospel of Grace:

[brother dave]

"My Word is Spirit and truth" the word-spirit is entered into by FAITH! No one can say they are "Spiritual" apart from abiding in the word by faith!

They are the same! you cant have one without the other!

1Pe 1:23


Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Jn 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

i agree with Haz that we are in truth a "spirit" and the spirit of a believer is sealed! But for a believer to walk apart from faith in the word, is to walk in the flesh! and has very real fruit! all bad!

 

[haz]

"My Word is Spirit and truth" the word-spirit is entered into by FAITH! No one can say they are "Spiritual" apart from abiding in the word by faith!

They are the same! you cant have one without the other!

1Pe 1:23


Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Jn 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

i agree with Haz that we are in truth a "spirit" and the spirit of a believer is sealed! But for a believer to walk apart from faith in the word, is to walk in the flesh! and has very real fruit! all bad!

Hi brother dave,

You have quoted good scriptures.
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16

What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17

But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 6:18

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body

Those who profess to know Christ, yet deny Him by their works, are the spiritual fornicators we are to avoid and put out of the church. Their leaven (doctrine of works) has long been infiltrating the church. There are many warnings about this in the Bible, hence why we see scripture speaking to churches but speaking of those within the church who profess to know Christ but are really fornicators seeking to decive believers away from grace and into works.

I agree borther dave. Walking in the flesh is to walk apart from faith. These are they who seek to be perfected by the flesh (Gal 3:3). They have fallen from grace.

Hi Axehead,

Did you not consider those points I described on 1Cor 5 regarding leaven/doctrine, glorying over fornication, and putting fornicators out?
Your desire for physical proof of salvation by perfect behavior has blinded you from spiritual truth.

 

[Prentis]

Those who profess to know Christ, yet deny Him by their works, are the spiritual fornicators we are to avoid and put out of the church. Their leaven (doctrine of works) has long been infiltrating the church.

One moment you say we are judged by our works and the next you say the enemy is a doctrine about works prepared in advance by the Father, actually bearing fruit in this life and being conformed to Christ.

Interesting...

 

[brother dave]

One moment you say we are judged by our works and the next you say the enemy is a doctrine about works prepared in advance by the Father, actually bearing fruit in this life and being conformed to Christ.

Interesting...

i know this is very hard to understand?

1Co 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

there are TWO different types of works. one comes from the flesh and attempts to earn what it can not earn! The other comes From the Spirit, from abiding faith in the Word of God. Now those who reject the salvation of faith? will not and cannot understand things of the Spirit! its not possible.

 

[haz]

i know this is very hard to understand?

1Co 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

there are TWO different types of works. one comes from the flesh and attempts to earn what it can not earn! The other comes From the Spirit, from abiding faith in the Word of God. Now those who reject the salvation of faith? will not and cannot understand things of the Spirit! its not possible.

Thanks brother dave. A good answer.

 

[us2are1]

first! glad you are showing the compassion that Christ has shown towards you?
and South is here in the Great state of Tenneessee! The land of Gods Grace! :)

Does it seem odd, that those who claim "to be saved by His Grace and mercy" Would turn and attempt to hinder others?

For no man has received anything from God apart from FAITH! Yet we have those here with evil hearts, that seek to pervert the true gospel! Claiming they have received? yet unwilling to grant others that which they claim they have been given freely?

Always ready to comdemn others to hell and limit heaven unto there "frozen chosen".

The best way one can tell if one is walking in the "law written on the heart" Is a simple test? Do you allow for others the salvation granted to you? Or do you seek to hinder and lay stumbling blocks in the path of others? If so? your heart is full of iniquity and you are lawless! You have broken the Royal Law!

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.


Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

What do you think about people like this SOM? :blink:

All people should ask God for His Spirit. It's never to late while you're alive.




.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

Did you not consider those points I described on 1Cor 5 regarding leaven/doctrine, glorying over fornication, and putting fornicators out?
Your desire for physical proof of salvation by perfect behavior has blinded you from spiritual truth.

Hi Haz,

Will you answer my questions on what did the scriptures mean here? Physical act or Spiritual metaphor?

Luke 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
Does this mean that Jesus was physically hungry or is this a spiritual metaphor?

Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Was Stephen actually killed with physical stones are is this another spiritual metaphor?


Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Do you know what MANIFEST means?

Axehead

 

[brother dave]

All people should ask God for His Spirit. It's never to late while you're alive.




.

i agree!
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Hi haz

Believers still bring in doctrines of works, to be made perfect by the flesh when the flesh is under judgement. When I say believers I do not mean the born again who are in Christ and under grace.

The disciples were believers before Pentecost. They thought that they had to work in the flesh and had to learn that sanctification is through faith in the finished work on the cross. When the scriptures talks about unbelievers, it is referring to these who do not understand the law of life.

Many think that walking in the "spirit" is willy-nilly? i move in the pentecostal circles, and we have some real "nuts and flakes"! They call many things being led of the "spirit"? It seems clear to me that "walking in the spirit of life" is walking in the Word of God "by faith". The Word and the Spirit are the same, you cant claim to be "in the spirit" and not be in the Word by faith?

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Jer 36:22 Now the king was sitting in the winter-house in the ninth month: and there was a fire in the brazier burning before him.
Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, that the king cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was in the brazier, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was in the brazier.
Jer 36:24 And they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, neither the king, nor any of his servants that heard all these words.
Jer 36:25 Moreover Elnathan and Delaiah and Gemariah had made intercession to the king that he would not burn the roll; but he would not hear them.

I would suggest that the reason so many have been brought in a "state of confusion"- Babylon- is that they do not keep His Word, by faith?

Many try to keep the Word by "the letter" not "the spirit" and cut it to pieces according to their own carnal
reasonings.

Mar 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son: hear ye him.
Mar 9:8 And suddenly looking round about, they saw no one any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

Until one understands that the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) was fulfilled in HIM! you can not understand the power of His Words spoken from His Throne in heaven!

 

[Episkopos]

Quote from William Booth (founder of the Salvation army) over 100 years ago

"The chief danger of the 20th century will be: religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, heaven without hell."

 

[haz]

Hi Haz,

Will you answer my questions on what did the scriptures mean here? Physical act or Spiritual metaphor?

Luke 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
Does this mean that Jesus was physically hungry or is this a spiritual metaphor?

Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Was Stephen actually killed with physical stones are is this another spiritual metaphor?


Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Do you know what MANIFEST means?

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

We both understand scriptures differently.
1Cor 2:13-14 tells us scripture is spiritually discerned.

In scripture we see God using words such as those described in Gal 5:19,20 to describe the rebellion of those who walk in the flesh. That is those who seek to establish their own righteousness through works. Such reject God's grace.
And note even Heb 12:16 describes Esau as a fornicator for selling his birthright for a morsel of food.
Why should you think it strange that God describes the rejection of grace and turning instead to works of self-righteousness, as fornication, uncleanness, idolatry, lasciviousness, etc?

When we came to Christ we repented of dead works (Heb 6:1) of self-righteousness. 2Cor 12:21 also speaks of this same repentance describing it in terms of uncleanness, fornication and lasciviousness. Mark 7:21,22 also describes the works of the flesh, all of which is rebellion against God, rejecting the gospel of grace.

And note how Gal 5:1,4 also describes the 2 different paths available. Either walking according to the flesh or the Spirit.
'Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage'.
'You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace'.

You seem to have lost sight of what the will of God is.
Eph 5:17
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from fornication;

Instead you seem to determine righteousness by perfect behavior in the physical. And since you apply Gal 5:19-21 to your lifestyle then we see the outcome for failure to have perfect behavior is that you shall not inherit the kingdom of God. This is the gospel you present on this forum.

BUT, the salvation of the thief on the cross who called Jesus Lord shows God's grace, which contradicts the gospel you present here.

Believing God's promise, submitting to His righteousness through the faith of Christ, is walking in the Spirit.

But the carnal/natural man, seeking to be made perfect by the flesh and preaching such doctrine, is walking according to the flesh. This is fornication, idolatry, lust, murder, uncleanness, sedition, heresies, etc.

1Cor 2:13,14
[sup] [/sup]These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [sup] [/sup]But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Prentis]

Quote from William Booth (founder of the Salvation army) over 100 years ago

"The chief danger of the 20th century will be: religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, heaven without hell."

Even further so in the 21st century!

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

We both understand scriptures differently.
1Cor 2:13-14 tells us scripture is spiritually discerned.

No argument there, Haz. It's like you are speaking Chinese and I am speaking Russian.

Should we take a language class?

Axe

 

[brother dave]

Quote from William Booth (founder of the Salvation army) over 100 years ago

"The chief danger of the 20th century will be: religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, heaven without hell."

I guess? that now it is clear that you can not defend your doctrine in scripture! you turn to find any cover you can? :blink:

Gal 1:6

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
i doubt this man would allow you and your teachings anywhere near the ministry he had to the weak?

You have shown that you do not understand basic biblical terms anyway! please explain what the word "repentance" and "regeneration" mean to you? i know and William Booth probably knew? but i doubt that you can give a biblical veiw of these terms?

 

[haz]

[/size]

No argument there, Haz. It's like you are speaking Chinese and I am speaking Russian.

Should we take a language class?

Axe

Hi Axehead,

True, it's like we do speak different langauges. Even how we see grace differs.

God's grace is demonstrated towards the thief on the cross without any outworking of his salvation.

But you see grace as empowering us to live in perfect behavior and this being evidence of salvation.

I think the example of the thief on the cross shows us what God's grace really is.

 

[Axehead]

What about you Haz? Clearly, you are not a thief on the cross. Is there any out working of grace in your life? Any reality of Christ manifested by spiritual fruit? I think we all get it (the thief probably lived only minutes after he believed), but do you think if he lived the outworking of the inward reality of Christ in him would be evident in his life, or would he still be regarded as a thief by his buddies? Was there a visible difference in Paul's life, Peter's life and John's life? Do your old worldly buddies see a difference in your life? Do those around you detect the aroma of Christ?

If we make excuses to live a lawless life we will soon be confronted with a reality that all the excuses in the world will not be able to deny. (General statement for anyone that has ears to hear).

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (the implication is NO).

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, (the implication is you cannot show your faith without works) and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Deuteronomy 10:12 - 18
And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, to keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the LORD'S thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is]. Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, [even] you above all people, as [it is] this day.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: He does execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loves the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.


Now, that was the Old Covenant standard. Jesus expects this and more from a New Covenant believer. Why?

Because it shows which God you serve - Him, or sin.


Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[haz]

What about you Haz? Clearly, you are not a thief on the cross. Is there any out working of grace in your life? Any reality of Christ manifested by spiritual fruit? I think we all get it (the thief probably lived only minutes after he believed), but do you think if he lived the outworking of the inward reality of Christ in him would be evident in his life, or would he still be regarded as a thief by his buddies? Was there a visible difference in Paul's life, Peter's life and John's life? Do your old worldly buddies see a difference in your life? Do those around you detect the aroma of Christ?

If we make excuses to live a lawless life we will soon be confronted with a reality that all the excuses in the world will not be able to deny. (General statement for anyone that has ears to hear).

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (the implication is NO).

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, (the implication is you cannot show your faith without works) and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Axehead

Hi Axehead and dragonfly,

You worry so much over a 'lawless life' amongst Christians. BTW, can you explain what is a 'lawless life'? What law are you speaking of?

Just as the thief on the cross, all who turn to Christ have the firstfruit, Christ Jesus. This makes them righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin.

But your insistence that in this imperfect physical life we live now, perfect behavior (or almost perfect behavior as I understand dragonfly puts it) is needed as evdience of ones salvation, this is not even witnessed in the lives of of you and your friends here (including whitestone).

If you ask any Christians here they will all say that their lifestyle has improved just as you guys claim yours has. BUT, the difference between us is that you guys claim this is evidence of salvation, whereas others here make no such claims. God does work in our lives and lifestyles do improve, but your argument that ones salvation is evidenced by a perfect lifestyle a misunderstanding of scripture.

And any Christians doing wrong will not profit by it. God disciplines us.

Regarding James 2:14-26, our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29. And faith without works is dead.
But believing on Jesus is harder than it appears, as some still turn back to works of self-righteousness (although they won't call it self-righteousness) to be perfected by the flesh, Gal 3:3.

 

[Prentis]

Hi Axehead and dragonfly,

You worry so much over a 'lawless life' amongst Christians. BTW, can you explain what is a 'lawless life'? What law are you speaking of?

Just as the thief on the cross, all who turn to Christ have the firstfruit, Christ Jesus. This makes them righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin.

But your insistence that in this imperfect physical life we live now, perfect behavior (or almost perfect behavior as I understand dragonfly puts it) is needed as evdience of ones salvation, this is not even witnessed in the lives of of you and your friends here (including whitestone).

If you ask any Christians here they will all say that their lifestyle has improved just as you guys claim yours has. BUT, the difference between us is that you guys claim this is evidence of salvation, whereas others here make no such claims. God does work in our lives and lifestyles do improve, but your argument that ones salvation is evidenced by a perfect lifestyle a misunderstanding of scripture.

And any Christians doing wrong will not profit by it. God disciplines us.

Regarding James 2:14-26, our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29. And faith without works is dead.
But believing on Jesus is harder than it appears, as some still turn back to works of self-righteousness (although they won't call it self-righteousness) to be perfected by the flesh, Gal 3:3.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The many could also say 'Have we not believed?'

The key is that they are workers of iniquity, unrighteous, and are rejected for this.


G458
a̓νομίa
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Many claim immunity for their violation of God's law, but Christ himself tells us he will reject those.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

the difference between us is that you guys claim this is evidence of salvation, whereas others here make no such claims.

Could it be that those who expect evidence - like Jesus does - the good fruit from the good tree - are not mistaken?



http://illbehonest.com/Joel-Osteen-its-just-the-Truth-Paul-Washer

 

[haz]

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The many could also say 'Have we not believed?'

The key is that they are workers of iniquity, unrighteous, and are rejected for this.


G458
a̓νομίa
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Many claim immunity for their violation of God's law, but Christ himself tells us he will reject those.

Hi Prentis,

Scripture states it's unbelief in Jesus that gets someone rejected.
You however claim it's violation of God's laws that people get rejected over. What law are you talking about?