The Gospel of Grace:

[williemac]

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The many could also say 'Have we not believed?'

The key is that they are workers of iniquity, unrighteous, and are rejected for this.


G458
a̓νομίa
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Many claim immunity for their violation of God's law, but Christ himself tells us he will reject those.

I think you are missing a key understanding in this passage and in the word. The problem with those mentioned is that Jesus never knew them. There will be many who, like these, will suppose that they are accepted by what they do, so they will focus on these...Lord, Lord did we not DO all these things in your name? But what does Jesus say..."I never knew you" He will not say I used to know you. He will say "never". Therefore these were never in the family of Christ. They were never regenerated in the first place. Therefore they will be judged according to the law. And we know that if anyone fails on any one point of the law, he will be guilty of all the law. Those who are lost will be judged as workers of iniquity. Those who are His by faith have escaped judgment, as Jesus promised in John 5:24..." Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes on Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life".

So this question of yours " The many could also say 'Have we not believed?" , is an assumption that is not based on scripture. The conclusion in Heb.10:39 states that " we are not of those who draw back to perdition but of those who believe to the saving of the soul"
The promise in 1John2:1 is that "if we do sin, we have an advocated with the Father"

The purpose for quoting these is not to promote sin or to excuse it, but to assure those that the promise of God is yes and amen, which is that in the new covenant..." their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more".

We are saved because God is good, not because we are good. He solved the problem. It is not for us to help Him solve it. We cannot save ourselves. John17:3..." and this is eternal life; that they may know You, the one true God, and Jesus Christ who you have sent" In Rev.3 Jesus' solution to the lukewarm church is found in vs.20,21. ".. I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come into him as sup with him and he with Me". Thus He will never say to these.." I never knew you"

 

[dragonfly]

This is what I was trying to post yesterday, but couldn't figure out how to make the player appear.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iWMrKcFKqzk

 

[Prentis]

Hi Prentis,

Scripture states it's unbelief in Jesus that gets someone rejected.
You however claim it's violation of God's laws that people get rejected over. What law are you talking about?

Unbelief in Jesus? The scriptures I posted are about people who say 'Lord, Lord'. They believe in Jesus alright.

And Jesus says 'Go away from me, you workers of iniquity' also translated as 'lawlessness'.

Clearly, they believe in Jesus, but are rejected for being lawless.

 

[williemac]

Unbelief in Jesus? The scriptures I posted are about people who say 'Lord, Lord'. They believe in Jesus alright.

And Jesus says 'Go away from me, you workers of iniquity' also translated as 'lawlessness'.

Clearly, they believe in Jesus, but are rejected for being lawless.

I am amazed at the hasty reply. Maybe the passage in Rev. 3 did not occur to you. The luke warm church were also believers. They were not cold. But neither were they hot. But what constituted being hot? Jesus gave the solution to that problem. They may well have believed in Him but they were not in relationship with Him. Thus He will say " I never knew you" We are not hot because we are behaving ourselves, we are hot because Jesus knows us in relationship by virtue of His indwelling presence. Behavior did not save us nor will it keep us saved. It is scary but not surprising to me that there are many who are not clear on this subject. We are saved by grace, through faith. Our salvation is not of ourselves, that is, not by works. It is a gift. In fact, Rom.10:9,10 states that we are made righteous by our heart's belief and by the mouth confession is made unto salvation. My friend, if we do not understand and believe these principles, then these other places you are quoting will trip us up
And as I shared from Jesus' own words in John 5:24, they key to one's salvation will be in escaping judgment altogether. For if anyone is judged, they will be condemned as workers of iniquity. If you ignore these principles and favor one passage, then this will certainly make for contradiction within scripture.

 

[Prentis]

If we truly are in relationship with him, then this will bear the fruit of righteousness in us.

The heresy is that we may know Christ, abide in him, and yet we remain as we were before. We are not transformed. It is a common belief today that by our 'belief' we save ourselves... By believing these principles, by believing in Jesus... But the demons believe, and they tremble.

Evangelicalism or 'the gospel of grace' has created a scheme whereby we are saved without actually entering the gospel... Without experiencing what the word speaks of... By this doctrine them, men justify themselves because they have heard the word, but have not done nor been partakers of it.

It is easy to claim a relationship with Christ without having the fruit that it produces... But this only reveals we are not walking in reality, but in a creation of man's imagination.


Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[haz]

Unbelief in Jesus? The scriptures I posted are about people who say 'Lord, Lord'. They believe in Jesus alright.

And Jesus says 'Go away from me, you workers of iniquity' also translated as 'lawlessness'.

Clearly, they believe in Jesus, but are rejected for being lawless.

Hi Prentis,

Can you please explain (with scripture too) what is this lawlessness. What law do you speak of?.

Thanks

 

[williemac]

If we truly are in relationship with him, then this will bear the fruit of righteousness in us.

The heresy is that we may know Christ, abide in him, and yet we remain as we were before. We are not transformed. It is a common belief today that by our 'belief' we save ourselves... By believing these principles, by believing in Jesus... But the demons believe, and they tremble.

The demons are not in relationship with Jesus. As well, who is saying that those who believe on Him for righteousness, justification, and salvation will remain as they were before? This is a fantasy. No one is promoting such an idea. Therefore who are you disputing with?

Evangelicalism or 'the gospel of grace' has created a scheme whereby we are saved without actually entering the gospel... Without experiencing what the word speaks of... By this doctrine them, men justify themselves because they have heard the word, but have not done nor been partakers of it.

The gospel of grace is biblical, so it has not created any such scheme when understood properly. But what is also biblical is the scheme whereby men feel justified before God by their works, which scheme is opposed biblically.

It is easy to claim a relationship with Christ without having the fruit that it produces... But this only reveals we are not walking in reality, but in a creation of man's imagination.

Do you know anyone who claims to know Jesus and is bearing no fruit at all? I object to the observation of those who are weak in their walk and thus concluding that they are fake Christians. We have no mandate for this kind of judging and condemning of our brothers and sisters.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Amen. So what is our part? Abide in Him. Exactly what I observed from Rev.3.
But what about these verses?
[sup]John 6:[/sup]
[sup]35[/sup]And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
[sup]36[/sup]But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
[sup]38[/sup]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
[sup]39[/sup]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[sup]40[/sup]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[sup]47[/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
[sup]49[/sup]Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
[sup]50[/sup]This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
[sup]51[/sup]I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

As for the idea that believers will be judged for their sin and condemned.....
John 16:
[sup]8[/sup]And when he is come, he will reprove (convict) the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[sup]9[/sup]Of sin, because they believe not on me;

How is it that you or others conclude that true believers will be convicted of sin? The above verse states otherwise. Only those not of Christ will endure such judgment.

The two sides on this discussion actually agree that those in Christ will and ought to bear fruit. This is not the dispute. The part that I object to is when those who are walking as they feel we ought to, look at those who are falling short of where they are, and drawing the conclusion that these have no place at all in God's family as a result.
Yeh, it is easy to compare men with men, but when we compare ourselvers with God, I assure you, we all still fall short of His glory. Make no mistake about this. Without grace, no one will make it at all into His eternal kingdom.

 

[Prentis]

Hi Prentis,

Can you please explain (with scripture too) what is this lawlessness. What law do you speak of?.

Thanks

Lawlessness is to have no law. These obey no law.


Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

(And a friendly reminder! Mat_5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil)

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So this is to be fulfilled in us. Those who are rejected for lawlessness because it is not fulfilled in them... Yet they believed in Jesus!

 

[williemac]

Lawlessness is to have no law. These obey no law.


Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

(And a friendly reminder! Mat_5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil)

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So this is to be fulfilled in us. Those who are rejected for lawlessness because it is not fulfilled in them... Yet they believed in Jesus!

I challange you on this. Jesus Himself said He would fulfill the law. In our case, the law is fulfilled. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe(Rom.10:4) As for Rom.8, it is to be read in context. It begins wth "therefore". As well, how about vs. 9...." But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you" ... vs.10, "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin but the spirit is life because of righteousness" This body that is dead was spoken of by Paul in the previous chapter, where he admited that though in his mind he agreed with the law, in his body there was conflict. It was about what he agreed with in his mind. He said in vs.16,17.." If I then do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells in me". Paul, because of his mindset, did not connect himself with the sin in him.
The truth of the matter is that if one agrees with the law and hates his sin, he is in the mindset that Paul was in, and therefore is walking in the spirit, because he who walks in the spirit has his mind set on the things of the spirit (Rom.8:5). Walking in the spirit is a mindset, not a behavior.

I was once rather judgmental of others who seemed a tad fleshly until I believe the Holy Spirit gave me a revelation. There are those who come to Christ from very dark and abusive places, some are messed up in their minds and some are even damaged. But when observing them we must ask the question...What would their lives be like if they had not come to Christ at all? Do we really have that knowledge? NO!! Who are we to conclude ther has been no change? And where do we get off deciding that no further change will eventually occur?

As well, I know those who say that they gave their lives to Jesus years ago, but walked far away from Him for a long time before they finally had a turn around. When looking back, most say that they can see just how He had His hand on their lives and how He brought them safely through to the point of where they are now. Do we think Jesus was kidding when He promised that all those who come to Him, He would in no wise cast out? Give Him a little credit. John 7:24.." Do not judge according to appearances, but judge with righteous judgment".

 

[haz]

Lawlessness is to have no law. These obey no law.


Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

(And a friendly reminder! Mat_5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil)

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So this is to be fulfilled in us. Those who are rejected for lawlessness because it is not fulfilled in them... Yet they believed in Jesus!

Hi Prentis,

So you are speaking of the law of righteousness (10 commandments)?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Hi Prentis,

So you are speaking of the law of righteousness (10 commandments)?

Please could you give a Bible verse or two, to show your definition of 'the law of righteousness' being the 10 commandments. I think I've questioned this before, but if not... I did intend to. Where did you get this connection from... ? I don't recognise it.

The law by which we will all be judged is the law of God. Romans 8:7

 

[haz]

Hi haz,



Please could you give a Bible verse or two, to show your definition of 'the law of righteousness' being the 10 commandments. I think I've questioned this before, but if not... I did intend to. Where did you get this connection from... ? I don't recognise it.

The law by which we will all be judged is the law of God. Romans 8:7

Hi dragonfly,

I have been finding it very difficult to get details on this 'lawlessness' you, Epi, Prentis, Axehead speak of. My previous request, post #657, was likewise unanswered.

Can you explain in detail what is this 'law of God' that our lifestyle will be judged by?

You guys preach that perfect behavior is evidence of our salvation, yet there seems to be a reluctance to provide details from scripture what law determines this.

BTW, Rom 9:31 speaks of the law of righteousness that Israel failed to attain to because they sought it by works instead of by faith. Rom 7:7 describes this same law by an example, being the 10 commandments.

But, back to the original question, can you please give details what you and your friends refer to in this perfect behavior we are to have as evidence of salvation. Is it not the 10 commandments?

 

[Prentis]

Hi haz,



Please could you give a Bible verse or two, to show your definition of 'the law of righteousness' being the 10 commandments. I think I've questioned this before, but if not... I did intend to. Where did you get this connection from... ? I don't recognise it.

The law by which we will all be judged is the law of God. Romans 8:7

Thanks dragonfly, Romans 8:7 answers it well.

 

[haz]

Thanks dragonfly, Romans 8:7 answers it well.

Hi Prentis,

Is there any reason why your reluctance to answer my question?

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Prentis,

Is there any reason why your reluctance to answer my question?

Lawlessness in a believer is a lack of righteousness. Form instance to exaggerate one's knowledge of God...claiming justification for oneself...claiming to understand the truth when one doesn't...giving lip service to God in empty praises...claiming to see and be rich when one is blind and naked...etc

 

[Prentis]

Episkopos answered it better than I could!

Dragonfly also gave a good answer for it... We are talking about 'the law of God'.

 

[haz]

Lawlessness in a believer is a lack of righteousness. Form instance to exaggerate one's knowledge of God...claiming justification for oneself...claiming to understand the truth when one doesn't...giving lip service to God in empty praises...claiming to see and be rich when one is blind and naked...etc

Hi Epi,

Whilst your description of 'claiming justification for oneself...claiming to understand the truth when one doesn't...giving lip service to God in empty praises...claiming to see and be rich when one is blind and naked...etc' certainly describes those who profess to know Him but by their works they deny Him, it does not answer my question.

But what I have asked for is specifics of this lifestyle of perfect behavior you guys say is evidence of salvation. Your gospel demands this hence why I ask for specifics. So far the only answers offered have been hidden by labels which you guys are reluctant to offer your specific understanding on.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,

Whilst your description of 'claiming justification for oneself...claiming to understand the truth when one doesn't...giving lip service to God in empty praises...claiming to see and be rich when one is blind and naked...etc' certainly describes those who profess to know Him but by their works they deny Him, it does not answer my question.

But what I have asked for is specifics of this lifestyle of perfect behavior you guys say is evidence of salvation. Your gospel demands this hence why I ask for specifics. So far the only answers offered have been hidden by labels which you guys are reluctant to offer your specific understanding on.

The gospel demands a holy conduct because the grace of God empowers one to walk as Jesus walked...after the death of the old nature.

The lifestyle would include righteousness. Living by the truth.

A perfect behaviour would include an unbiased honesty about where one actually is. Every step towards God must be done in righteousness.

The greatest indication of this lifestyle is love, joy and peace.

 

[haz]

The gospel demands a holy conduct because the grace of God empowers one to walk as Jesus walked...after the death of the old nature.

The lifestyle would include righteousness. Living by the truth.

A perfect behaviour would include an unbiased honesty about where one actually is. Every step towards God must be done in righteousness.

The greatest indication of this lifestyle is love, joy and peace.

Again, you are offering no specifics.
Remember you were the one accusing others here of being in fantasy by believing on Jesus. These same people you were accusing are righteous, holy and have love, joy, peace.

Clearly you have some list of behaviors in mind to judge a Christian's lifestyle by. Please give us the specifics of this "righteous' lifestyle.
Whitestone claims he has achieved this, but his behavior here suggests otherwise. However you and some others here claim you have not achieved this perfection yet. And dragonfly seems to believe being almost perfect is near enough. But in all this there is no specific detail as to what this 'righteous' perfect behavior is that shows we are saved.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Hi dragonfly,

I have been finding it very difficult to get details on this 'lawlessness' you, Epi, Prentis, Axehead speak of. My previous request, post #657, was likewise unanswered.

As Prentis said, 'lawlessness' means the person does not obey any law.

Can you explain in detail what is this 'law of God' that our lifestyle will be judged by?

Regarding the detail of the 'law of God', this is where you need the Holy Spirit to explain things to you. I've already given you the verses (twice) that contain relevant references to law under the New Covenant. Unless you spend time meditatng about them and building on what you already know of God, it is going to remain a mystery to you. In the New Covenant God's law is written on our hearts by Him. If you had this law written on your heart, you'd know.

You guys preach that perfect behavior is evidence of our salvation, yet there seems to be a reluctance to provide details from scripture what law determines this.

Do you know you can read through any of the gospels in less than an hour? Most of the other books in the NT are shorter, and all you need to do is read them carefully, paying attention to the information you're looking for. Maybe it would help to write down your findings as you go? Everyone has their own way of learning.

BTW, Rom 9:31 speaks of the law of righteousness that Israel failed to attain to because they sought it by works instead of by faith. Rom 7:7 describes this same law by an example, being the 10 commandments.

Thank you for this, but you seem to have neglected that the Gentiles achieved the law of righteousness by faith. This is why your continual returning to the 10 commandments (Law of Moses) is baffling.

But, back to the original question, can you please give details what you and your friends refer to in this perfect behavior we are to have as evidence of salvation. Is it not the 10 commandments?

Again, no it is not the 10 commandments.

The details are in the NT particularly, but the OT is helpful for a different perspective on all the same things. There is no shortcut to BIble knowledge. You either have to read the books like the narratives they are, or, you have to pick a theme or topic of interest, and find out what the Bible actually says about it using a word search and literally reading all the verses it pulls, to see how they connect, thus building up comprehension of your topic.

One way to find out the things we don't do, is to search for Paul's lists of sins, and pray for yourself on all the ones that trip you up. A way to see the things we do do, is to consider Jesus, of whom John said, 'but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ'. What did His grace look like? What are the graces He gives His people? He was the Truth about everything. It's important that we become the truth where we have been something other than true.

These would all be possible places to start, but it's usually best to start with a matter than genuinely concerns you so that you're motivated to wrestle with its implications for your own life. That way, your study is most meaningful and will probably yield the quickest results in terms of good fruit.