One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[marks]

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-34 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The chosen will be gathered, then the nations will be gathered to be judged, same as in Joel:

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Said judgment upon the earth.

Either you believe it, or you don't. If you don't, you've likely found some long convoluted reasoning for why you should deny such plainly stated Scripture.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The person I was debating was the first to say the opposite of what you're replying to about premil. I was just showing them that the argument can go both ways.
So name one scripture that Premil contradicts.

I asked you to name one scripture that Amil contradicts first. You expect me to answer your question before you answer mine? That's not how this works.

Yes there is one reserection of the wicked souls I agree.

John 5:29 and come out

And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

LOL. Are you somehow missing that it references the resurrection of "they that have done good" as well? Jesus indicated that there is a singular time/hour when ALL of the dead will be resurrected.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So, Jesus said a singular time is coming when ALL who are in the graves will be resurrected and it will include both the righteous and the wicked. Does your Premil doctrine agree with what Jesus said here or do you instead believe that the righteous and wicked will be resurrected 1,000+ years apart at completely different times?

 

[jeffweeder]

It sounds more like you are projecting that on me. Scripture is meant to be interpreted by what it plainly states, and Amil makes up complicated ideas out of the plain text.

Nothing complicated about the believers glorification and the ungodly receiving eternal punishment on the same day. Premills actually disregard such a plainly stated truth.



3 We ought always and indeed are morally obligated [as those in debt] to give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is fitting, because your faith is growing ever greater, and the [unselfish]love of each one of you toward one another is continually increasing. 4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

11 With this in view, we constantly pray for you, that our God will count you worthy of your calling [to faith] and with [His] power fulfill every desire for goodness, and complete [your] every work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you [by what you do], and you in Him, according to the [precious] grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.



What complicated ideas are you going to come up with that butchers that text?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-34 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The chosen will be gathered, then the nations will be gathered to be judged, same as in Joel:

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Said judgment upon the earth.

Either you believe it, or you don't. If you don't, you've likely found some long convoluted reasoning for why you should deny such plainly stated Scripture.

Much love!

Please explain to me in detail how everyone in the world could all literally fit into the valley of Jehoshaphat. I look forward to your detailed explanation.

Do you believe this plainly stated scripture?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Do you believe that God has set a singular judgment day in which He will judge "everyone"/"all people everywhere" in "the world" or do you instead believe in multiple judgment days? I believe it's the latter, correct?

 

[marks]

Please explain to me in detail how everyone in the world could all literally fit into the valley of Jehoshaphat. I look forward to your detailed explanation.

So, I'm right? You don't believe it? You don't, do you? You think it's stupid, don't you?

Even though it's plainly stated. What would it take for you to believe the Word of God instead of ridiculing it?

????

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.

Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.

Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.

Much love!

So, is this not narrative prophecy?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Jesus said that all of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time, so do you believe this passage or not? How does your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 line up with John 5:28-29?

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

This passage says that Jesus currently is "the ruler of the kings of the earth", which means He currently reigns. And it says that long ago already He "has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". Do you believe this passage or not? Does your understanding of the timing of His reign and the timing of His followers being made priests in Revelation 20:6 agree with the timing indicated in Revelation 1:5-6?

 

[marks]

Please explain to me in detail how everyone in the world could all literally fit into the valley of Jehoshaphat. I look forward to your detailed explanation.

Do you believe this plainly stated scripture?

Tell me something . . . why do you believe this part . . . about His coming . . . and not this part . . . about His judging the nations? Both are plainly stated narrative prophecy.

Isn't it a bit inconsistent to select one to believe and one to ridicule?

Much love!

 

[marks]

So, is this not narrative prophecy?

Stay on point. OR duck out, your choice.

Playing Scripture against Scripture demonstrates a lack of understanding about what God's Word is, in my estimation. True understanding brings harmony without denying the truth of other passages.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, I'm right? You don't believe it? You don't, do you? You think it's stupid, don't you?

LOL! So, was my question too difficult for you to answer then? I'll have to assume so since you didn't answer it.

Even though it's plainly stated. What would it take for you to believe the Word of God instead of ridiculing it?

I'm not ridiculing anyone or anything. I asked you a question which you did not bother to even attempt to answer. Why not? This "plainly stated" argument you're trying to make doesn't cut it. What does that even mean? It's plainly stated that the beast has seven heads and ten horns. Does that make it a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns?

 

[marks]

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Jesus said that all of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time, so do you believe this passage or not? How does your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 line up with John 5:28-29?

Generally the same time??

OK.

I suppose if you generalize, you can do that anywhere.

Rather . . . believe all of it, and harmonize all of it.

But back to this:

Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.

Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.

Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I asked you a question which you did not bother to even attempt to answer. Why not?

Because you are trying to skirt the issue.

Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.

Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.

Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Tell me something . . . why do you believe this part . . . about His coming . . . and not this part . . . about His judging the nations? Both are plainly stated narrative prophecy.

Isn't it a bit inconsistent to select one to believe and one to ridicule?

No, it absolutely is not inconsistent at all. He is going to literally come, but His coming and events related to it are sometimes described figuratively. What is wrong with that? For example, in Revelation 19:11-21 it's talking about His literal future second coming, but it describes it symbolically. Clearly, He is not going to literally have a sword coming out of His mouth that He will literally use to slay people while riding on a white horse when He comes.

 

[marks]

I'll have to assume

No surprise there.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Generally the same time??

OK.

What else does "a time is coming..." mean? He didn't say two times are coming when the dead will be raised, right?

I suppose if you generalize, you can do that anywhere.

Well, none of us believe that all of the dead will be resurrected at the exact same moment in time, so how do you interpret what He said? Does your view not turn it into multiple times that are coming rather than a time that is coming when all of the dead will be raised? It certainly seems so to me.

Rather . . . believe all of it, and harmonize all of it.

That is what Amil does and Premil cannot even come close to doing.

But back to this:

Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.

Oh, let's just ignore the plain statement made in John 5:28-29 then and focus on whatever passage you want to focus on. LOL. Okay then.

Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.

Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.

Much love!

I showed you two plainly stated passages that your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 contradicts, but I guess you would rather be selective in which plainly stated passages you believe while ignoring the rest.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No surprise there.

Much love!

Quoting my comment without context is very childish. You clearly have no interest in being honest and responding to challenges to your view. You make these arguments about plainly stated scripture, then you're shown other plainly stated scripture which contradicts your interpretation of the scripture you quoted and you try to brush those other scriptures under the rug instead of dealing with them honestly.

 

[teamventure]

I asked you to name one scripture that Amil contradicts first. You expect me to answer your question before you answer mine? That's not how this works.


LOL. Are you somehow missing that it references the resurrection of "they that have done good" as well? Jesus indicated that there is a singular time/hour when ALL of the dead will be resurrected.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So, Jesus said a singular time is coming when ALL who are in the graves will be resurrected and it will include both the righteous and the wicked. Does your Premil doctrine agree with what Jesus said here or do you instead believe that the righteous and wicked will be resurrected 1,000+ years apart at completely different times?

You Amil guys were the first to call the opposing view false doctrine.
You should then be the first to explain why. That's how it works.

I told you I agree with you on that second point.
When did I say that I prescribe to everything that Premil teaches? I'm an individual with my own thoughts please don't put me in a box. I'm not the one who brought up Premil either.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Stay on point. OR duck out, your choice.

Playing Scripture against Scripture demonstrates a lack of understanding about what God's Word is, in my estimation. True understanding brings harmony without denying the truth of other passages.

Much love!

Stop being a child. You are the one trying to duck out. I'm showing you how your interpretation of one passage contradicts other passages and you are not willing to honestly address that. I'm not playing scripture against scripture, I'm showing you how you are pitting one scripture against another by interpreting one scripture in such a way that contradicts another. I have no such issue with the way I interpret those passages. My view reconciles them all together without causing any contradictions like yours does.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You Amil guys were the first to call the opposing view false doctrine.
You should then be the first to explain why. That's how it works.

I told you I agree with you on that second point.
When did I say that I prescribe to everything that Premil teaches? I'm an individual with my own thoughts please don't put me in a box. I'm not the one who brought up Premil either.

Goodness gracious. When you create a thread making claims you need to be prepared to answer challenges to your claims. You clearly are completely unprepared to do so. This thread is your attempt to refute a belief in a post-trib rapture. I'm showing you how scripture does teach a post-trib rapture and now you're trying to just dismiss what I'm saying just because I'm an Amil.

 

[teamventure]

Nothing complicated about the believers glorification and the ungodly receiving eternal punishment on the same day. Premills actually disregard such a plainly stated truth.



3 We ought always and indeed are morally obligated [as those in debt] to give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is fitting, because your faith is growing ever greater, and the [unselfish]love of each one of you toward one another is continually increasing. 4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

11 With this in view, we constantly pray for you, that our God will count you worthy of your calling [to faith] and with [His] power fulfill every desire for goodness, and complete [your] every work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you [by what you do], and you in Him, according to the [precious] grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.



What complicated ideas are you going to come up with that butchers that text?

None, I take scripture as plainly stated.
You are just putting me in a Premil box when I'm not even the one who brought it up.

 

[teamventure]

So, I'm right? You don't believe it? You don't, do you? You think it's stupid, don't you?

Even though it's plainly stated. What would it take for you to believe the Word of God instead of ridiculing it?

????

Much love!

You said it Marks.
Amils are the first to call the kettle black.