One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[jeffweeder]

Well being punished is one thing. That is not complicated. Saying it means they are resurrected the same moment they are killed complicates and contradicts the point of the verse.

Tim. stick to the text and quit complicating everything with long winded rants like this.
The text is talking about the believers being glorified on the same day and time the unbelievers are sentenced to eternal damnation.

That is all you and me and everyone else needs to consider as they read this text.

First and foremost, the lord is coming in eternal vengeance to repay those who harm and persecute his own.

Read carefully...,

3 We ought always and indeed are morally obligated [as those in debt] to give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is fitting, because your faith is growing ever greater, and the [unselfish] love of each one of you toward one another is continually increasing. 4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

 

[Timtofly]

Please explain to me in detail how everyone in the world could all literally fit into the valley of Jehoshaphat. I look forward to your detailed explanation.

It is not everyone. It is the offspring of Jacob separated into sheep and goats. Yes, Israel has amalgamated into every nationality on earth. Some will be redeemed as sheep. The majority will remain goats, and cast alive into the LOF.

"I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land."

That is the context: Calling Israel out of all nations. To argue a case with a defendant, one does not have to have every accuser join in the courtroom. In any case of "x vs. the US", not every single citizen has to come to the trial.

How can you say that Jesus on the Cross, judged against every nation on earth for the release of every Israelite from every nation?

Then why do you deny that Jesus will personally call out every offspring of Jacob in this case: Israel vs. All Nations. Every one does not have show up. Same with Matthew 25. These are living humans. They are not transported off earth for judgment. They are gathered by the angels. That is the theme throughout Matthew. Not sure why Matthew has to spell it out in every single verse. The church is not gathered to the earth. The sheep and goats are gathered to Jerusalem. The tares and wheat are gathered by the angels. Between all three chapters one should form a picture that angels gather people. And not exactly at the same singularly hour, nor to the same location.

Spiritual discernment is not taking a bunch of verses and putting them in a blender and calling them a single milk shake. Spiritual discernment is rightly dividing the Word of Truth and acknowledging that God has made a distinction between who remains on the earth and not all people end up in the same place at the same time. At least not in this creation. It is not until the NHNE that the New Jerusalem comes down and all are on the earth together.

Yet you question that the Second Coming is to the earth and no millennium, then turn around and say that God and Jesus are on the earth immediately in the New Jerusalem. Why is it hard to see the contradicting conclusions. Premill cannot have Jesus immediately on earth, but Amil can?

That goes for the post trib view. Jesus is on the earth. The problem is that the final harvest is the reason Jesus is on the earth. The final harvest with the angels gathering people was over 42 months prior to Armageddon. Armageddon is not even the Second Coming. Jesus is returning with the final harvest, all those sheep and wheat firstfruits of the final harvest, 42 months after Satan was handed that throne to sit as the 8th kingdom. The 7th kingdom declared at the 7th Trumpet has returned to start the Millennium Kingdom. Armageddon is not the gathering to the valley of Jehoshaphat. That already happened during the first 6 Trumpets.

 

[Timtofly]

I showed you two plainly stated passages that your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 contradicts, but I guess you would rather be selective in which plainly stated passages you believe while ignoring the rest.

Only your interpretation is contradictory.

As already stated the hour of resurrection was the Cross. That hour has not stopped, nor will stop until God has placed the last soul into the LOF. Is you hour symbolic or literal? Was the resurrection of the Cross symbolic or literal? That "now is" part kicked in when Lazarus was called out of his grave, a few weeks before the Cross. The Jews went ballistic over that ability of their Messiah whom they rejected.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. There is no bias. I interpret Revelation in light of other scripture and you interpret it in isolation from other scripture, resulting in you interpreting it in such a way that contradicts other scripture.

You acknowledge that it never says we should interpret it in the order you think it should be and then you turn around and insist that it has to be interpreted in a certain order. What a joke. You are a comedian. As I've shown you several times before, we know that Revelation 11 and 12 cannot be interpreted in chronological order. Even you can see that. So, why do you insist that the rest has to all be in chronological order? You have no basis for that belief.

Why is reading it as stated, the wrong order? That is your judgment of the book of Revelation, not mine.

I have always replied that chapter 12 is an historical footnote introducing Satan into the narrative.

Of course Satan and angels are cast out of heaven after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. How hard is that to figure out?

Because the book was written as John saw events happening. In fact he was starting to write down the 7 Thunders and was stopped. That did not happen before the Seals happened, did it?

Yet you have not once pointed out how I contradict one Scripture with another. Mostly you claim nonsense, to actually pointing out a single contradiction.

 

[ewq1938]

Tim. stick to the text and quit complicating everything with long winded rants like this.
The text is talking about the believers being glorified on the same day and time the unbelievers are sentenced to eternal damnation.

No passage says that happens on the same day. Rev is clear about some dead living and reigning with Christ, and the rest of the dead not living again until much later. That means there are two groups of the dead that resurrect on two different days. This rules out any "same day" theory.

 

[Timtofly]

When people are resurrected are they not alive? If you are referring to Rev 20:11-15 (I have to guess since you're so vague) then the dead there are not completely dead and unconscious or else how can they give an account of themselves and what they did during their lives? They are dead in the sense of being dead in their sins but the scripture says "the rest of the dead" will be resurrected after the thousand years, so that is what Rev 20:11-15 is depicting. Matthew 25:31-46 is no different. It's a judgment of all people including those who have been resurrected from the dead.


There is no passage that Amil blatantly contradicts. You are just saying that because you have no discernment and don't understand what passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15. Your carnal, childish, non-spiritual way of interpreting scripture simply does not work.

So do your childish replies, they don't work.

Being physically dead is still physically dead.

Those in Matthew 13 and 25 have yet to physically die. That is your contradicting Scripture.

Those in Revelation 20 came out of death, sheol, and the sea. You have to agree they are not physically still alive since birth.

You cannot say the same about those other Scriptures you quote. And certainly you have to insert physical death happening prior to judgment into Matthew 25 where it does not even fit, make sense, nor the truth.

Nations are living people on earth. Give one verse that declares nations come out of sheol, to back up your interpretation of Matthew 25. Otherwise that is your personal opinion.

 

[Timtofly]

You clearly could not care less if your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 contradicts other scripture or not.

Not a single Scripture is contradicting the Premil interpretation of this passage.

If so, you would point them out.

And don't say Satan can be bound in the pit at any time in general. That is your opinion. Satan was bound from doing his will in the book of Job. He had to ask for God's permission.

Do you think the verse about Satan falling like lightning trumps every other verse in Scripture? Then why make the same accusation about Premil? Was Lucifer fallen from heaven found in the OT before Jesus was born? Was Jesus confirming that truth or saying it just happened at that very moment?

 

[Timtofly]

After writing of these martyred saints alive in heaven after physical death we learn this group of martyred

That is not what it says. It never says martyred. It never says they lived during a previous 1,000 years. It never says they were in heaven, nor going to heaven. All points you have added to Scripture.

When were they beheaded? Revelation 6

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

They were not reigning with Christ during a thousand year period before they died. They were the ones these people were waiting for. Who are these people?

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"


They are not these people:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Those in the 5th Seal were waiting for those in Revelation 20 to physically die.

Why is being slain for the word of God different than being martyred?

For the same reason you all argue for one resurrection. Souls in sheol, today, were not martyred. Not every one in heaven arrived via martyrdom. So to limit either one of these groups to martyrdom flies in the face of a single resurrection, because then you would have to say every dead soul was martyred, just as every soul came alive at the same time. You are placing limits on on how they die and when they will be resurrected.

Per Revelation 6, we see dead people being at the least rewarded with a white robe, before people on earth were even physically killed. It does not matter the interpretation of the white robes. The fact is they were given something the group in Revelation were not given, and ti top it off those in Revelation 6 were waiting for those in Revelation 20 to physically die.

There is no symbolism available that can justify one single resurrection with reward or judgment, without causing these two chapters to contradict each other. One group was told to wait for the other group to die. Then we see the group they were waiting for was resurrected a thousand years before the rest of the dead.


And No! You cannot say that it is the same group then waiting a thousand years which symbolically means a little while and the rest of the dead will join them at the end of the period between the Cross and the Second Coming. Especially if that group in Revelation 6 were rewarded at the Second Coming. No amount of twisting Scripture, and saying these two groups are the same from different angles. You cannot place both groups in the first century, and then claim both groups have reigned with Christ the same period of time. The only way it can work is that at the Second Coming the group in Revelation 6 were rewarded and told to wait for those in Revelation 20 to physically die. Then those in Revelation 6 were physically resurrected and live on earth for a thousand years, and then once again, Satan is attempting to destroy them a second time with physical harm.

 

[Timtofly]

Now back to the point where you add martyrdom to make it sound like they have been killed over the last 2 millennia, then contradict Scripture to make them the same alleged group of martyrs rewarded and already in heaven.

Then you claim they are dying over a period of a thousand years which is the opposite of Scripture which claims they actually lived out those thousand years, never dying the second death. Also the thousand years is after their resurrection not prior to their resurrection. And reigning with Christ can only be after a physical, the first resurrection. You are wrong both ways. Those martyred in the first century, have received the first resurrection, physical bodies, and have reigned physically in Paradise for over 1900 years. You claim they died over this symbolic period of time. No. Souls have literally received physical bodies and have reigned with Christ for way over a thousand years. Dying was never the point of reigning. The point of reigning with Christ, even since Stephen, was a physical reign in Paradise after a physical, first resurrection, and not limited to a mere thousand years symbolic or literal. It would be forever.

So the only reason there is a thousand year period is still the time when Satan was bound. Reigning with Christ was never limited by any time. It was only limited in what year of humanity you were born into, and then subsequently died. You, living today could never reign for 3,000 years any more than a thousand years, especially since you don't even accept there is a future thousand year period to reign in.

You have changed everything about those people and then only define it by your own alleged thousand year period by the length of the reign and not even by the souls involved in that particular passage. Your own words:

They have died already as John writes, and he says they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." During their lifetimes which John says is a thousand years they were faithful unto death. We understand that during the same time, a thousand years when Satan is bound these martyred saints lived and reigned with Christ. This is exactly as written, it is what the text says.

Your emphasis is on the length of time. Then you say that time happens before they are martyred. That time was not prior to being martyred. Scripture clearly points out the thousand years was after their resurrection.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

So, the thousand years applies after a physical resurrection to either heaven or to earth. This blessing was not limited to just these people. Lazarus was blessed and will not see the second death, nor ever die again, and has been reigning with Christ since Resurrection Sunday. Premill do not limit reigning for only a thousand years. Nor is any reigning ever limited to time at all. It has always been eternal. I don't need Revelation 20 nor do I need to change Revelation 20 to fit my belief system like Amil do.

Amil explain it away as if they owned Revelation 20, yet claim the "a" does not mean a literal 1,000 years, it can be symbolic time where we see fit and even has a beginning and end, as on the first and second comings of Jesus. Which obviously has been over 2,023 years and counting.

So finishing up with martyrdom. You have to insert that word to make is sound like it had to happen before the Second Coming. "Obviously no one can be martyred after the Second Coming". That would be nonsensical. Yet that is exactly how you describe the Word of God, as nonsensical. Because the point made was that a group in heaven were rewarded. A second coming event, and told to wait for those people you insist are martyred after a second coming event. Then you claim that group they are waiting for, these beheaded souls in Revelation 20, were the same group of people waiting after being rewarded. Simply by using the term martyred, you have changed the Word of God.

Here is why they are not martyrs. The symbolism is about a Lamb slain on an alter in heaven before the foundation of the world. The souls under the alter are simply representing all the redeemed slain out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are under the alter symbolic of being covered by the Atonement. They are slain to represent being out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Those who refuse to give up their sin and wickedness trample under foot the very blood of redemption. It was Jesus who was the Lamb slain. The redeemed also had to be slain out of Adam's dead flesh to gain God's permanent incorruptible physical body. This is not about martyrdom. This is about being redeemed.

The same with those beheaded. Not martyrdom. Chopping off one's head is the only means of Salvation. It is post the Second Coming. It is post the final harvest. These people chop their head off as an act of faith. Satan is not martyring souls, because that would mean He was allowing them to eternally reign with Jesus Christ. All Satan can do is decieve folks into accepting the mark, so they will end up with him, and totally separated from God.

That is the reason given, not something made up:


"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

They are physically resurrected and live on the earth after Satan's 42 months. The only period of time on the earth when the redemption decision is between taking the mark and chopping one's head off. Have you been to a church where that is the alter call, even symbolically? That was not even the decision Joshua put before Israel.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

 

[Timtofly]

Tim. stick to the text and quit complicating everything with long winded rants like this.
The text is talking about the believers being glorified on the same day and time the unbelievers are sentenced to eternal damnation.

That is all you and me and everyone else needs to consider as they read this text.

First and foremost, the lord is coming in eternal vengeance to repay those who harm and persecute his own.

Read carefully...,

3 We ought always and indeed are morally obligated [as those in debt] to give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is fitting, because your faith is growing ever greater, and the [unselfish] love of each one of you toward one another is continually increasing. 4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

There is no mention of a resurrection nor reward to physically dead people period.

This is not a resurrection of the dead. It is the destruction of living humans at the Second Coming. That is all.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim. stick to the text and quit complicating everything with long winded rants like this.
The text is talking about the believers being glorified on the same day and time the unbelievers are sentenced to eternal damnation.

That is all you and me and everyone else needs to consider as they read this text.

First and foremost, the lord is coming in eternal vengeance to repay those who harm and persecute his own.

Read carefully...,

3 We ought always and indeed are morally obligated [as those in debt] to give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is fitting, because your faith is growing ever greater, and the [unselfish] love of each one of you toward one another is continually increasing. 4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

The church is glorified on the day of the Second Coming. Judgment will be handed out to all on the earth.

That is the 5th and 6th Seal. Even before the 7th Seal is opened. Even before the first Trumpet sounds. They know the wrath is coming. They are hiding.


"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

That is the thief in the night moment when the heavens dissolve, the angels come to earth, and the baptism of fire removes all the works of mankind off the face of the earth, just like the water did to those during the Flood. This time no one dies until God says so. That is how John wrote out the Olivet Discourse. He literally saw the events whether you accept that or not.

 

[rwb]

Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.

Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.

Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.

Much love!

What does the passage tell us is happening during this time "a thousand years"?

1. Satan is bound
2. Martyred saints lived and reigned with Christ
3. One must have part in the first resurrection during a thousand years
4. After the thousand years Satan is loosed for a little season

Where are these faithful saints when they were martyred for being faithful?

Where are they after they have been killed, but are still alive?

How can there be some saints martyred for their faithfulness, who lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, and then have another group called blessed and holy who shall also reign with Christ a thousand years?

Believers had been martyred in this world during their lifetime, in this age of the Gospel, before Christ returns. When believers are faithful unto death, even after death, they are spiritually alive, because Christ assures the faithful that death shall not have power over them. That's why John knows these martyred faithful saints are alive in heaven after physical death, they are living (spirit) souls. John tells us only these believers, dying before the first advent of Christ have died and ascended spiritually alive to heaven after physical death, but the rest of the dead have not yet lived again. The unfaithful dead will not live again until this time, a thousand years is finished. Then John tells us there are more who belong to the first resurrection, calling them blessed and holy, who have overcome the second death and shall reign with Christ during this time, a thousand years as priests of God and Christ.

How can anything John has written in this passage make any sense whatsoever if a/the thousand years is not written to symbolize time given this earth to proclaim the Gospel so the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven can be complete?

You say this narrative will be fulfilled. John seems to be showing us this prophesy has been and shall be fulfilled during this age of time that is symbolized a thousand years. This time began with the first advent of Christ and will not be finished until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete. Then Satan will be set free for a "little season" to gather together Gog & Magog to have one last attempt to keep the spiritual Kingdom of God from being finished. But his freedom doesn't accomplish what he had hoped. Instead of utterly destroying what is left of the church on this earth, God sends down fire from heaven to devour them all. The last thing John writes for us is then the dead shall be called before God to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life, and the dead will then be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

 

[rwb]

Generally the same time??

OK.

I suppose if you generalize, you can do that anywhere.

Rather . . . believe all of it, and harmonize all of it.

But back to this:

Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.

Jo 5:28-29 tells us "ALL" that are in the graves will hear His voice and come out in an hour that is coming. John doesn't separate the physically dead in the graves as some who in life were faithful from unbelievers. He simply truthfully tells us that ALL who are physically dead will be resurrected either to life or damnation. There is no separation between those resurrected to life and those resurrected to damnation.

You say you believe what is plainly written. Do you believe ALL the physically dead whether good or bad shall be resurrected in an hour coming? Or do you not believe what is plainly written?

 

[rwb]

Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.

Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.

Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.

Much love!

According to the narrative, that which is plainly written this prophecy is NOT coming, but is according to the narrative written about things that have already happened during this time "a thousand years". Why do you say what is written "will be fulfilled" instead of accepting that John is writing not only of things that have already happened, but also showing us things that are happening and shall happen right up to the end of this time "a thousand years"???

 

[rwb]

I've always loved the following verse, because the description goes out of it's way to stress that the second coming is literal.

Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
Zechariah 14:3‭-‬4 NIV

Along with this verse:
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Acts 1:11 NIV

Why do you ASSUME Zechariah is prophecy of the second coming of Christ? Why would he prophesy of a second coming since Christ had not yet come to earth the first time? Did or did not Christ stand on the Mt of Olives when He came to earth a man? What day of the LORD that cometh is Zechariah referring to here? Bear in mind Christ had not yet come to earth in the time of Zechariah.

Zechariah 14:1 (KJV) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

 

[rwb]

No passage says that happens on the same day. Rev is clear about some dead living and reigning with Christ, and the rest of the dead not living again until much later. That means there are two groups of the dead that resurrect on two different days. This rules out any "same day" theory.

Where in Rev 20 are saints referred to as "the dead"? Those martyred saints are not dead! Even after their bodies were killed John says they are alive because before they were martyred they lived and reigned with Christ during time, a thousand years. John writes the rest of the dead will not live again until a thousand years have ended.

John writes that ALL the bodies of the physically dead shall be resurrected together in an hour coming. There is no separation between those physically resurrected to damnation and the resurrected and changed bodies for life.

 

[Marty fox]

It is not everyone. It is the offspring of Jacob separated into sheep and goats. Yes, Israel has amalgamated into every nationality on earth. Some will be redeemed as sheep. The majority will remain goats, and cast alive into the LOF.

"I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land."

That is the context: Calling Israel out of all nations. To argue a case with a defendant, one does not have to have every accuser join in the courtroom. In any case of "x vs. the US", not every single citizen has to come to the trial.

How can you say that Jesus on the Cross, judged against every nation on earth for the release of every Israelite from every nation?

Then why do you deny that Jesus will personally call out every offspring of Jacob in this case: Israel vs. All Nations. Every one does not have show up. Same with Matthew 25. These are living humans. They are not transported off earth for judgment. They are gathered by the angels. That is the theme throughout Matthew. Not sure why Matthew has to spell it out in every single verse. The church is not gathered to the earth. The sheep and goats are gathered to Jerusalem. The tares and wheat are gathered by the angels. Between all three chapters one should form a picture that angels gather people. And not exactly at the same singularly hour, nor to the same location.

Spiritual discernment is not taking a bunch of verses and putting them in a blender and calling them a single milk shake. Spiritual discernment is rightly dividing the Word of Truth and acknowledging that God has made a distinction between who remains on the earth and not all people end up in the same place at the same time. At least not in this creation. It is not until the NHNE that the New Jerusalem comes down and all are on the earth together.

Yet you question that the Second Coming is to the earth and no millennium, then turn around and say that God and Jesus are on the earth immediately in the New Jerusalem. Why is it hard to see the contradicting conclusions. Premill cannot have Jesus immediately on earth, but Amil can?

That goes for the post trib view. Jesus is on the earth. The problem is that the final harvest is the reason Jesus is on the earth. The final harvest with the angels gathering people was over 42 months prior to Armageddon. Armageddon is not even the Second Coming. Jesus is returning with the final harvest, all those sheep and wheat firstfruits of the final harvest, 42 months after Satan was handed that throne to sit as the 8th kingdom. The 7th kingdom declared at the 7th Trumpet has returned to start the Millennium Kingdom. Armageddon is not the gathering to the valley of Jehoshaphat. That already happened during the first 6 Trumpets.

Not true the sheep are made of both Jew and gentile

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Not true the sheep are made of both Jew and gentile

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

I don't know if you meant to word it that way, but that is incorrect. Perhaps your understanding of it though is correct and I am misinterpreting your words. Before you get defensive, let me explain why.

The sheep are children of God. Not Jew and Gentile. For there is no difference between Jew and Greek - we are all one in Christ. That is why it was said,

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Other sheep: Not Goats and Sheep but Sheep from that pen and Sheep from another pen.
There shall be one flock: Breaking down the wall of partition between the 2 pens to have them all in the same one. Not a Jew and Gentile flock, 1 flock.

My response is because it appeared that you are saying the sheep are Jew and Gentile causing a separation. I am neither. My citizenship is in heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

My response is because it appeared that you are saying the sheep are Jew and Gentile causing a separation.

The sheep are Jews and Gentiles but no separation. They are male and female also. You are misunderstanding the verse where it says there are no Jews or Gentiles in Christ. The point is they are equal not that races (or gender) doesn't exist in the church.

 

[Marty fox]

I don't know if you meant to word it that way, but that is incorrect. Perhaps your understanding of it though is correct and I am misinterpreting your words. Before you get defensive, let me explain why.

The sheep are children of God. Not Jew and Gentile. For there is no difference between Jew and Greek - we are all one in Christ. That is why it was said,

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Other sheep: Not Goats and Sheep but Sheep from that pen and Sheep from another pen.
There shall be one flock: Breaking down the wall of partition between the 2 pens to have them all in the same one. Not a Jew and Gentile flock, 1 flock.

My response is because it appeared that you are saying the sheep are Jew and Gentile causing a separation. I am neither. My citizenship is in heaven.

At the time Jesus was the one who separated them because He came to the lost sheep of Israel.

After the first advent gentiles came into the flock and there was one flock then there was neither Jew or gentile