One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[Timtofly]

Where did He say to read it in the order you prefer to read it in?

No where. So why change up the order to fit your bias?

 

[David in NJ]

I've always loved the following verse, because the description goes out of it's way to stress that the second coming is literal.

Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
Zechariah 14:3‭-‬4 NIV

Along with this verse:
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Acts 1:11 NIV

AGREE

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

None, I take scripture as plainly stated.

What does that even mean? Do you think all scripture is plainly stated?

You are just putting me in a Premil box when I'm not even the one who brought it up.

You just don't get it. Let me remind you of what you said in the original post:

The rapture can not be post trib because if all the believers were raptured at the time of the second coming, there would be no one left in mortal bodies to live into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth.

As put by Marks: If all the righteous were raptured - translated to the incorruptible - and all the wicked are sent to punishment when the Lord comes, no one would remain in natural flesh having babies, continuing generations as prophesied in the Bible past the second coming.

So, your argument here against a post-trib rapture is that it can't be possible if all believers are raptured at the second coming and all unbelievers are killed, leaving "no one left in mortal bodies to live into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth." Right?

Well, that's an argument only against the post-trib, Premil view, but not against the post-trib, Amil view. What you said there gives the impression that you are a Premil since you didn't mention any other option. You understand that, right? So, that's why Premil and Amil were brought into the discussion.

What you originally said is an argument for post-trib Premils to consider and address, but it's not a problem for post-trib Amils since we agree with you that all unbelievers will be killed at His second coming. With all believers being changed to have immortal bodies, that doesn't leave any mortals to populate the earth at that time.

So, I'm simply pointing out that your original argument is not a problem for post-trib Amils. So, you should either modify your claim to say that a post-trib rapture isn't possible only from the Premil perspective or address why you also don't think it's possible from the Amil perspective if you think that a post-trib rapture isn't possible at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No where. So why change up the order to fit your bias?

LOL. There is no bias. I interpret Revelation in light of other scripture and you interpret it in isolation from other scripture, resulting in you interpreting it in such a way that contradicts other scripture.

You acknowledge that it never says we should interpret it in the order you think it should be and then you turn around and insist that it has to be interpreted in a certain order. What a joke. You are a comedian. As I've shown you several times before, we know that Revelation 11 and 12 cannot be interpreted in chronological order. Even you can see that. So, why do you insist that the rest has to all be in chronological order? You have no basis for that belief.

 

[jeffweeder]

None, I take scripture as plainly stated.
You are just putting me in a Premil box when I'm not even the one who brought it up.

So do you agree with my understanding of 2Thess 1 passage?

If that doesnt make you an Amill then what are you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So do you agree with my understanding of 2Thess 1 passage?

If that doesnt make you an Amill then what are you?

They always take scripture as plainly stated except for when they don't.

 

[Timtofly]

Where does it say that? You are clearly just making assumptions here and not proving anything. Scripture says we will meet Him in the air when He comes. Where does it say we are then taken to the earth? Where does Matthew 25:31-46 say anything about Him coming to the earth? It doesn't. Your beliefs are based on nothing except assumptions and speculation.

Of course it does.

The word nation refers to living people. There are no nations of the dead.

That is one passage Amil blatantly contradict.

Matthew 13:37-40

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

Seed is not sown in sheol among the dead. Satan does not sow in Paradise and deceive those in Paradise. The Son of man is Jesus Christ. The angels are on the earth with Jesus Christ. Jesus comes to earth as King. The angels come as well.

There is no symbolism indicating this is the GWT of the dead. Jesus is literally on the earth as the Steward of the Vinyard. It does not say in the first century at the first coming. Jesus was talking about the end of the earth. This is not after the Millennium. It is the Second Coming in preparation of the Millennial Kingdom.

Amil agree that Revelation 20 is on the earth in verse 9, but blatantly deny that those people that start the Millennium are on earth. There is no scene change all of Revelation 20 is from the perspective of on the earth, from verse 1 to verse 10. Verse 11 is the end of current creation handed back per 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

"when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Amil claim the end happens at the Second Coming. It does not end then. It ends after the reigning on earth per Matthew 25, Matthew 13, and Revelation 20. All on earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course it does.

The word nation refers to living people. There are no nations of the dead.

When people are resurrected are they not alive? If you are referring to Rev 20:11-15 (I have to guess since you're so vague) then the dead there are not completely dead and unconscious or else how can they give an account of themselves and what they did during their lives? They are dead in the sense of being dead in their sins but the scripture says "the rest of the dead" will be resurrected after the thousand years, so that is what Rev 20:11-15 is depicting. Matthew 25:31-46 is no different. It's a judgment of all people including those who have been resurrected from the dead.

That is one passage Amil blatantly contradict.

There is no passage that Amil blatantly contradicts. You are just saying that because you have no discernment and don't understand what passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15. Your carnal, childish, non-spiritual way of interpreting scripture simply does not work.

 

[marks]

What else does "a time is coming..." mean? He didn't say two times are coming when the dead will be raised, right?

You seem to make a big deal out of a one-time resurrection, but now you say "generally" the same time. Generally? Huh.

Just the same . . .

Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.

Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.

Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.

Oh, let's just ignore the plain statement made in John 5:28-29 then and focus on whatever passage you want to focus on. LOL. Okay then.

Good. Then you can explain to me why you will not believe this prophecy as written.

I showed you two plainly stated passages that your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 contradicts, but I guess you would rather be selective in which plainly stated passages you believe while ignoring the rest.

No, you've showed me passages that you are not able to reconcile to this one, however, you've shown absolutely NOTHING that tells us we shouldn't believe that passage - as it was written by God.

You think that the one can't be true because of how you understand the other. And even still you backpedal . . . generally speaking.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Quoting my comment without context is very childish. You clearly have no interest in being honest and responding to challenges to your view.

OK, you've left the topic, and now you want to discuss your low opinions of me. That didn't take long!

Challenges to my view? I say . . . The Bible is true. Even that part.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Stop being a child.

I think I know something childish . . . responding to Scripture with ad hominems. It means you can't come up with anything better, or you have no manners, or something, whatever, I'm not interested.

Much love!

 

[jeffweeder]

They always take scripture as plainly stated except for when they don't.

Lol.
I just had to ask.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You seem to make a big deal out of a one-time resurrection, but now you say "generally" the same time. Generally? Huh.

I think that make a lot more sense than changing it to two (or more) completely different times that are coming when the dead are raised as Premil does. Eh? Yeah, I think so.

Just the same . . .

Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.

That is what you do with John 5:28-29 and Revelation 1:5-6, but you are not being honest about that. You'd rather just ignore plainly stated passages like those and be selective in which plainly stated passages you believe in.

Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.

Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.

Your interpretation of this passage contradicts plainly stated passages like Revelation 1:5-6 and John 5:28-29. Do you not care about that? My belief takes all of these passages into account and reconciles them all together. Does yours? If so, how?

Good. Then you can explain to me why you will not believe this prophecy as written.

Because interpreting it literally contradicts other passages. I've made that clear, so why are you asking me this? You clearly could not care less of your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 contradicts other scripture or not. In your mind Revelation 20:1-6 trumps all other scripture. Any scripture that doesn't agree with your interpretation of that passage can just be ignored in your mind.

No, you've showed me passages that you are not able to reconcile to this one,

Yes, I am. Very easily. I have done so many times. Scripture could not possibly be more clear that Jesus began reigning after His resurrection. Do you interpret Revelation 20:1-6 accordingly? No, you do not. Why not? You tell me. Scripture describes Jesus's resurrection itself as being the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and how we have part in His resurrection spiritually (Eph 2:4-6, Romans 6, Col 2:12-13, etc.). Do you take that into account when interpreting Rev 20:1-6? Clearly not. Scripture says His followers were made priests long ago already (Rev 1:5-6). Do you take that into account when interpreting Rev 20:1-6? Clearly not. And on it goes.

You are the one who cannot reconcile your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 with other scripture, not me.

however, you've shown absolutely NOTHING that tells us we shouldn't believe that passage - as it was written by God.

That is obviously a lie. I have shown John 5:28-29 and Revelation 1:5-6 today and many other passages at other times. How does that equate to "NOTHING"? I'm sorry that you think other scripture besides Revelation 20:1-6 is "NOTHING".

You think that the one can't be true because of how you understand the other. And even still you backpedal . . . generally speaking.

Stop your childish rhetoric already and tell me how you interpret these passages:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Tell me how you reconcile your interpretation of Rev 20:1-6 with passages like these. What does Rev 1:5-6 tell us about the timing of Christ's reign and of His people being His priests? What does John 5:28-29 indicate about how many times or events are coming when all of the dead will be resurrected?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think I know something childish . . . responding to Scripture with ad hominems. It means you can't come up with anything better, or you have no manners, or something, whatever, I'm not interested.

I have responded with scripture and you choose to ignore that. You clearly want no part of passages like Revelation 1:5-6 and John 5:28-29 because you know you can't reconcile passages like those with your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6.

You make your childish "plainly stated" argument, but then when presented with plainly stated scripture that contradicts your view you try to brush those scriptures under the rug. So much for you interpreting scripture as plainly stated. That is clearly a farce. You interpret passages as supposedly plainly stated when it suits your biases, but when it comes to passages like John 5:28-29 and Revelation 1:5-6 you suddenly throw your "plainly stated" approach out the window.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

OK, you've left the topic, and now you want to discuss your low opinions of me. That didn't take long!

Start being honest with the scriptures I present instead of only wanting to address the scriptures you present and then that won't happen.

Challenges to my view? I say . . . The Bible is true. Even that part.

You talk constantly about interpreting a passage as plainly stated, but then you won't do that with passages like Revelation 1:5-6 and John 5:28-29. Why should anyone take you seriously when you are not consistent with your approach? Your approach is childish and inconsistent. That is clear for all to see.

 

[jeffweeder]

Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.

Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.

Maybe your understanding of this passage misses the mark.
What makes you think satan is bound in the future instead of now?
Do you have any scriptures to offer?

It can be shown that the Lord has bound the strongman (satan) so he can claim his goods (humans). We are free from him who once held the keys of death...,


Rev 1
17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as though dead. And He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last [absolute Deity, the Son of God], 18 and the Ever-living One [living in and beyond all time and space]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of [absolute control and victory over] death and of Hades (the realm of the dead).

Hebrews 2:14
Therefore, since [these His] children share in flesh and blood [the physical nature of mankind], He Himself in a similar manner also shared in the same [physical nature, but without sin], so that through [experiencing] death He might make powerless (ineffective, impotent) him who had the power of death—that is, the devil—

2Thess 2 shows satan in a bound and restrained state today, who has his season of full activity just prior to the Lords coming...,
Check it out...,

7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way.

8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we should and are [morally] obligated [as debtors] always to give thanks to God for you, believers beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [that sets you apart for God’s purpose] and by your faith in the truth [of God’s word that leads you to spiritual maturity]. 14 It was to this end that He called you through our gospel [the good news of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection], so that you may obtain and share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Be blessed.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The passage looks literal to me.

Looks? That is what natural man foolishly thinks.

1Co 2:13-14
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Many people don't understand the full importance of the verses because they are confused about the language of the animals and children dwelling together. This is SPIRITUAL language, and all we have to do is SEARCH the Scripture to KNOW what God has in mind! Wolves, Leopards, Lions, Bears, beasts, and snakes (vipers, asps, and cockatrices) are used in Scripture to describe Satan, his kingdom, and all those who follow him. For example:

Mat 7:15
(15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 23:32-33
(32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
(33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

1Co 15:32
(32) If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

The imagery of these animals and children together in God's Holy Mountain speaks of the fact that the believers (wheat) and unbelievers (tares) will dwell side by side in the kingdom (the church) just as we see in the NT.

Mat 13:27-30
(27) So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
(28) He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
(29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
(30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The lion eating straw like the ox refers to the fact that Satan's followers (the tares) will pretend to be believers, and n many cases will be mistaken for believers (the exact same idea as wolves in sheep's clothing). This is why we are given so many warnings about the false prophets, false teachers, and false christs who will dwell during the New Testament millennial kingdom only to increase more in the end prior to Christ's coming.

2Co 11:13-15
(13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
(14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
(15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The children playing on the ends of these poisonous snakes, is demonstrating that even through thebelievers and unbeleives are together, the chosen believers have nothing to fear. Satan's followers cannot harm them because they have overcome by the sacrifice of Christ at the Cross and the power of the Holy Spirit within them. Like Christ warned:

Luk 10:17-20
(17) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
(18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
(19) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
(20) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

The children will not have to worry about being harmed by false prophets, false christs, or professed Christians in God's New Testament congregation that these evil animals represent. Therefore, Isisah was NOT talking about a child literally playing with snakes here.

 

[rwb]

Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.

Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.

Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus indicated that there is a singular time/hour when ALL of the dead will be resurrected.

You added the word singular to the text. That contradicts the point that in Matthew 27 many did come out of their graves. So you then have to call that the only singular hour as well. That means that was the only resurrection. None after that one.

You skip over the verse that says:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Yes, the time of the NT came as per the OT Prophets. But the NT and OT prophecy will be completed in total at the Second Coming, which is as much to the earth as the first one.

Show me one verse that declares the first coming was to the earth and the second one is not to the earth. You do understand that Israel was cut off and placed on hold. Until the NT was complete. That is the Gospel went to every person throughout the earth to all nations, until the advent of nations would be full. That is the fulness of the Gentiles.

Then Jesus would complete the fulfillment as Prince or King of Israel over Israel and over the plethora of nations. Matthew 25 mentions nations. Revelation 11 mentions kingdoms. That is not remotely.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

The Day of the Lord is just the beginning of forever. He must reign until the earth is subdued.

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Subdued: Genesis 1:27

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

You say there does not have to be a subdued earth in contradiction to God's plan for the earth. You leave the earth burned to a crisp. God despises burnt offerings, yet your Amil symbolism leaves God with a burnt offering as what Jesus hands back at the end of your millennium. Hebrews 10:5-10

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

No one is arguing that the Cross was not enough. The point is the removal of sin from the earth. Burning it to a crisp just won't work. Once the earth is baptized with fire, Jesus reigns until the earth is subdued. Then Jesus hands back a perfect creation to God, just like the Body of Christ was made perfect, so will creation.

Amil just can't wave this away with a symbolic gesture. Then to top it off you claim Jesus cannot even choose out from among the living whom lives and subdues the earth with Him, because you refuse to see Jesus comes for the firstfruits during this time of Jacob's trouble. Amil along with post trib adherents are only left with the dead, burnt to a crisp. Then they contradict Scripture and deny two resurrections one at the start and then the GWT. The GWT cannot happen both before and after. Take your pick.

You cannot change this verse:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Not all the dead lived prior to the thousand years. That means some were resurrected, the first resurrection, which is physical. The rest cannot have a physical resurrection until the thousand years is over.

Now we have a resurrection at the Cross. A resurrection at the start, and a promise of a physical resurrection may be afforded to the rest of the dead later. So after the Millennium this is still true:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

There is still dust to rise from, as the earth is still the same earth as after Noah's Flood. Yet it was made new then, and will be made new for the Day of the Lord. None of these verses claim the word "singular". Singular is your opinion to do what? Yep, change the text to fit your bias and preconceived notions. If not your preconception, being a converted pre-mill then the preconception of the one who taught those who taught you. You have to be taught the word singular.

The hour of resurrection started at the Cross and is still ongoing today. Eternal life is the longest hour of Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

Nothing complicated about the believers glorification and the ungodly receiving eternal punishment on the same day. Premills actually disregard such a plainly stated truth.



3 We ought always and indeed are morally obligated [as those in debt] to give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is fitting, because your faith is growing ever greater, and the [unselfish]love of each one of you toward one another is continually increasing. 4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

11 With this in view, we constantly pray for you, that our God will count you worthy of your calling [to faith] and with [His] power fulfill every desire for goodness, and complete [your] every work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you [by what you do], and you in Him, according to the [precious] grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.



What complicated ideas are you going to come up with that butchers that text?

Well being punished is one thing. That is not complicated. Saying it means they are resurrected the same moment they are killed complicates and contradicts the point of the verse.

Are you going to say these verses means they were resurrected to eternal damnation at the same time they are physically destroyed to damnation?

Since Amil are so rigid on verses about the Second Coming not explicit enough for them, that it happens on the earth, was Paul writing to dead people physically dead, in these verses, to get the facts straight?

If Paul was not addressing people that were already dead, physically, is he talking about those alive at the Second Coming or physically dead, just to get the facts straight?

Because if these people are alive who are punished, then are they transported off the earth still physically alive to be judged offsight so they can be cast into everlasting fire? Why is it so complicated to admit that Jesus is in person, judging those alive on the earth, instead of assuming every single verse is referring to physically dead people?

Revelation 20 is definitely referring to all as dead standing before the GWT. That is not disputed. The dead could be referring to their spiritual disposition, sure. It could also mean they are both physically and spiritually dead. We do not have to assume any resurrection is determined until after judgment is declared. Certainly a body could be just as dead literally and symbolically, no? No verse claims they have eternal life. In fact it would seem they all end up in the LOF either way. Now we assume that some are given a first resurrection and still named in the Lamb's book of life even though spending thousands of years in sheol.

That is where Daniel 12 kicks in. People from Daniel's day after being in sheol could be granted both a first resurrection and eternal life along with the second birth and remain in the Lamb's book of life. No verse in that chapter declares that impossible or contrary to God's loving kindness. In fact we are told that after the thousand years, some could live again, though the majority will not. Most will end up in the LOF. Especially those punished with everlasting damnation at the Second Coming. I mean your verses seem to indicate their punishment was final and eternal.

The point is, that nothing in Revelation 20 about the GWT deals with any people who had never physically died. Yet these verses never imply that these people have ever physically died.

So one set of verses is about those physically dead, not alive. And the other set of verses are talking about those who have never physically died. If I presented verses like that you would question my sanity. Yet you will probably just dismiss this whole post as my opinion. You will claim I am being too picky on the facts. Since you seem to accept that there is not a verse that is explicitly "on the earth", who is really being picky? As I pointed out, where offsight are the dead not really dead, but all physically alive even going to be able to exist physically, since you reject it cannot be "on the earth". Obviously one explanation takes more assumption than to simply say they are still on the earth. Remember that you claim they are both alive and burned to a crisp at the same moment of time, a singular hour as one poster puts it?