The final harvest?

[ewq1938]

You were quite clear in saying, EWQ ~ and I quote ~ "It is Amill that re-defines what the first resurrection of Rev 20 is," Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but your assertion here clearly implies an intentional act.

I think the doctrine does not understand that it is re-defining this. It (and those who believe in it) actually believe the first resurrection in Rev 20 is a spiritual resurrection, but it isn't, so a re-defining is happening.

It would have been much less ambiguous if you had said "mis-defines" or "is wrong about."

Same thing.

You ASSUMED I was accusing an intentional re-defining when I never said that.

He or she may think the other three get it wrong, and obviously do, but accusing anyone of intentionally "altering its meaning" is ridiculous.

None of this is accurate. No accusation was made at "anyone". I spoke about a doctrine and never said anything about intentionally "altering its meaning".

 

[rwb]

Randy,

But to be born again is indeed being raised from the dead. Because we who were dead, spiritually speaking, have been raised from spiritual death to spiritual life. That may be what you're saying, and if so, yes we agree.

To be precise what I argue is that when we are born again, we do not experience a first resurrection, but rather we partake of Christ's resurrection life. It's called "first" resurrection for a reason. There can only be ONE first, which is why I believe Paul writes of those who were dead in trespasses and sins having been "quickened" and "raised" rather than saying we have been resurrected. To be quickened is not a physical resurrection, but a return to spiritual life we were given at creation but lost after the fall. We have been quickened together with Christ or through/in Him. That is by His Spirit coming into our natural, rebellious spirit and giving us the ability to believe Christ for eternal life. Our natural spirit isn't altogether without life as our physical dead bodies are. So they need not be resurrected. Our natural spirit is only dead in trespasses and sins. IOW our spirit without the life giving Spirit was without the ability to believe and turn to Christ for eternal life. Which is why we must be born again, and not spiritually resurrected! This is done by having part in the resurrection of Christ, Who is the "first resurrection."

How can the first resurrection be physical since there will only be ONE physical resurrection of ALL in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds?

The first resurrection is indeed A physical resurrection! It is written as the resurrection of Christ, Who is the first resurrection from the dead who shall die no more. Those who have been born again are NOT the first resurrection of the dead, Christ is! And only when we partake of His resurrection are we assured to overcome the second death.

The passage says the martyred saints died because in time, symbolized a thousand years they LIVED and REIGNED with Christ. Then John writes of the rest of the dead, or those who have not lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, symbolizing time, as not living again until the thousand years have ended. Lastly John writes of those who shall also reign with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years, as those who are blessed and holy having part in the first resurrection which is having part in Christ's resurrection, and in whom the second death has no power over.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Where in this passage do we read martyrs who have been faithful unto death being resurrected? The passage proves that death has no power over them because they kept the faith unto death. It does NOT say they were resurrected from death to live and reign with Christ for ONE thousand years. John writes they are spirit souls alive in heaven after physical death because in life (time; symbolized a thousand years) they already lived and reigned with Christ.

Paul describes our being "raised with" Christ because it is analogous to Christ's own resurrection and is the legal 1st step before we ourselves are actually literally raised up at the 2nd Coming. It is a *legal 1st step* and is language used as a metaphor to depict our spiritual rights being connected to Christ's victory.

It is not yet our own victory, but only the victory he has won for us. It is not yet our resurrection, and so it must be a metaphorical usage describing Christ's standing on our behalf.

We are in Christ not only raised up spiritually speaking, but also seated with Him in heaven via His Spirit in us. Yes, this is the first step to our being physically resurrected immortal in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds that time (symbolically a thousand years) shall be no longer. It is our blessed assurance that we NOW have victory through Christ because our spirit HAS eternal/everlasting life through His Spirit in us. The only thing believers long for and with patient assurance await is for Christ to come again when our physical bodies shall be resurrected and changed to be reunited with our eternal spirit, then fit for life unending with Christ on the new earth, once again complete with immortal body + eternal spirit = complete living souls.

That's not a valid argument, in my view. A singular resurrection can refer to either an individual resurrection or a composite, plural resurrection of many! The singularity of a "1st Resurrection" is not decisive in the argument.

Yes, it can and does! The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ which the whole spiritual body of Christ partakes of through His victorious life, sacrificial death, and glorious resurrection. Because Christ is the first resurrection from the dead, all who abide in Him have part in His resurrection life. If Christ were not the first resurrection, there would be no resurrection for anyone.

Satan has always been limited in his power. He was defeated *legally* at the Cross, but is still "prowling about!" He is still deceiving people, who are suckered by the Devil's deceptions. They are still buying into falsehoods concocted by that evil being. And Satan is still inspiring people to want to murder Christians and to think atheism is taking over the world. It is creating international troubles.

No one that I know of speaks of Satan being bound means he is without any power over this earth. He is after all the spirit that works in the children of disobedience. And in whom we were all under his power through fear of death, fulfilling every desire of the flesh and natural mind, being children of wrath.

Ephesians 2:2 (KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Ephesians 2:3 (KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But by His cross and resurrection Christ brought a change in our nature when we believe in Christ as our Lord and Savior. As believing Gentiles we are no longer deceived by Satan's power to keep us in bondage to fear of death as we once were. That's how the cross and resurrection bound Satan, so that all the nations of the earth (Gentiles) can now hear the Gospel and by grace through faith be freed from fear of darkness and death, we have come into the Light & Life of Christ.

I find no indication in Scripture that this world will some day be without Satan's deception and falsehood. But Satan's hold is only on those who continue in unbelief. He no longer has power over those who have been born again in Christ. Because greater is He that is in me, then he that is in this world.

The nations are still deceived, or they would not be opposing former Christian nations, and they would be *accepting the Gospel* for themselves. Satan has never been able to stop God's plan from taking place, either OT or NT.

What he does, however, is stop the completion of God's plan, preventing the fulfillment of His promises. That's why Israel has never been able to hold onto and achieve her national hope of representing God's Kingdom in their nation. That's why Christian nations have still as yet been able to do the same.

Randy, I get this is what you believe, but it isn't at all convincing without support from Scripture. There will always be deception through the evil spirits in this world, until this world is utterly burned up by the fire that shall come down from God out of heaven.

Satan has no power to prevent the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete. Christ has given us blessed assurance that His Kingdom shall be built and not even the gates of hell (Satan) can prevent it.

See Matthew 16:18-19 & 1 Corinthians 3:9

I had hoped there might be more consensus between us. What I find most frustrating in these discussions is how so many here thinking they understand the doctrines of Amillennialism trying to dispute what they really do not have good understanding of. It's really too bad but it seems there is rarely any discussions that defend against the true doctrines of Amill. Instead, folks, like yourself are always defending against things not taught in Amillennialism.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion, you take care as well.

 

[rwb]

The current ones just sidestep it. I mean, how can non-spiritually resurrected people reject the beast and have the witnesses of Christ, get killed for those beliefs while still not being born again, then after being alive and dying get spiritually resurrected/born again? How can you stand up for Jesus and reject the beast and MOB while NOT being born again/spiritually resurrected? It's not possible. That's not how the order works.

The truth is, being spiritually resurrected/born again is not being discussed in Rev 20. It already had happened in a timeframe BEFORE Rev 20.

It is because these martyred saints had been spiritually raised from death to life through the resurrection life of Christ (the first resurrection) that they were able to be faithful unto death. Why would these martyred living souls need to be spiritually raised to life again since death had no power over them? Since after physical death these martyred saints went to heaven spiritually alive, they need only to wait in heaven for the hour coming when their dead bodies too shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible by being reunited to their eternal spirit.

The truth is what is being discussed in Rev 20 is how John assures believers that physical death no longer has any power over them, because not even physical death could keep them from being with the Lord in heaven. That's because in life symbolized a thousand years they LIVED and REIGNED with Christ and remained faithful unto death.

 

[rwb]

I think the doctrine does not understand that it is re-defining this. It (and those who believe in it) actually believe the first resurrection in Rev 20 is a spiritual resurrection, but it isn't, so a re-defining is happening.

The doctrine that does NOT understand Rev 20 comes from Premillennialism! In your effort to find TWO physical resurrections in the words of John, separated by ONE thousand years, you completely ignore what the text actually says. You believe the martyred souls are resurrected to physical life again to live and reign with Christ on this earth for one thousand years. In forcing this doctrine you ignore the FACT that they already LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a thousand years before they were martyred for their faith.

How do you reconcile your doctrine with the fact that these martyred saints have already lived and reigned with Christ before their death? John does NOT say they were martyred then physically resurrected so they could live and reign some future time with Christ on this earth for one thousand years. Your doctrine, not Amillennialism re-defines Rev 20, and in the process forces contradiction upon contradiction into the Word of God.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are being wooden and too literal here.

LOL! That's... okay with me.

The first resurrection only happens because a human is given his physical life back.

Disagree. We've been over this many times... we disagree.

You claim these throne are those beheaded judging others, yet that is not what John declares.

That's not what I "claimed," Timtofly. There were given authority to judge, which is exactly according to what John writes in Revelation 20:4. Being given authority to judge and actually executing judgment are two very different things.

Those beheaded are not judging the rest of the church.

Never said they were... See above.

Your point suggests that those beheaded decide if you and others can even be saved, ie your "first resurrection".

Maybe in your mind (LOL!), but no, not at all.

If you entered a courtroom , and saw the person sitting up there, and knew that judgment was given to them, would this not be a day of judgment for you?

Sure, but they're not sitting in a courtroom or any facsimile thereof ~ heavenly or earthly ~ and not sitting in judgment. This is just an assumption on your part of my meaning, and that assumption is quite in error.

That is not being wooden nor literal. That is just common reading comprehension.

We've... talked about your reading comprehension skills, Timtofly.

You then make the claim those beheaded are the ones sitting on those thrones progressively for a thousand years judging others...

Not judging others; see above.

who are receiving the first resurrection progressively for a thousand years.

No one person "receives the first resurrection progressively for a thousand years," Timtofly. That may be your terrible miscomprehension regarding what I have said, but a terrible miscomprehension it is. Maybe it will help if I explicitly say (as if I should have to) that the total number of God's elect receive the first resurrection, each at his/her appointed time during his/her physical life on earth, progressively for ~ person by person over the course of ~ the millennium, the thousand years.

Then you claim the first resurrection is actually the second birth where one's spirit is dead and now alive.

No, I've said ~ again, many many times ~ that the first resurrection is the direct result of being spiritually born again. If this was the first time, I would certainly overlook your misstatement

Is your claim that all humanity is born in a beheaded condition...

LOL! No...

and they sit in judgment of each other for the last 2 millenia?

LOL! And no.

Good Lord.

Because that is how your interpretation sounds.

In your purple-skied world, maybe...

No one that I know of limits the first resurrection to that very moment in those verses.

I have no doubt that's true. LOL!

The first resurrection is not a moment in time. That is too wooden and literal.

I never said the first resurrection is a singular moment in time. Well... in the sense of a single person, it is a singular moment, but for the whole of God's elect, it's each one over a span of time. I don't know if you understand what I've said in that way or not, but I've been very clear about that.

The first resurrection is not chronological implying two different events.

We disagree. John calls it the first resurrection, and that clearly implies a second. Plus, it's a different resurrection than the one Jesus talks about in John 5:28-29.

If you claim the first resurrection is the second birth...

I don't. See above.

...then why do you also insist it is the first of two events people experience?

Yeah, so, because of the immediately above, this question is non sequitur.

My point is that the first resurrection is neither of your multiple interpretations...

You mean as if I had more than one interpretation? LOL!

...nor is a wooden nor literal interpretation of these verses.

It is what it is. It is a real thing, though, in the life of each member of God's elect. As I've said numerous times. It's what Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2 and Peter speaks of in 1 Peter 1.

In John 3 Jesus points out the first birth is physical and the second birth is spiritual.

Right, sure. And so it is, in that order (first physical and second spiritual), regarding the first and second deaths. But the first and resurrections are reversed:

• the first resurrection is spiritual ~ and before the first death
• the second resurrection is physical ~ our spirits are reunited with our physical bodies after the second resurrection, and after the final Judgment enter into eternal life with Christ in the new heaven and new earth (unbelievers experience this second resurrection, too, but they remain spiritually dead and thus are sent away ~ following Satan ~ from Christ and the new heaven and new earth by Christ as a result of the final Judgment)

The logical point is extending this to the first death still being physical, and the second death spiritual.

Right, I've said this many, many times...

If one is physically raised from the dead, that is the first resurrection.

Nope. And with this statement, you are contradicting yourself... although you clearly don't even realize it.

Many also think that those at the GWT are also given a physical body, ie first resurrection, even if it is the second event in that chapter.

Ah the second is the first. I see... LOL!!! So... there are two seconds and no first...? LOL!!!

That is not stated. What is stated is that the rest of the dead do not live again. It never says they will live again.

If they live again, they are given the first resurrection for the first time. Not the second birth.

But one does not need the second birth to avoid the second death. One needs the first resurrection, and that is sufficient.

Right, I've said this over and over and over again... My goodness.

In failed human understanding why equate the second death with anything physical at all?

I would ask the same question.

The second death is indicative of being removed from the Lamb's book of life.

The second death is a result of one's name not being found in the Lamb's book of life.

But the second birth was never realized as well to make that name official in the Lamb's book of life.

Agree. Although,,, "make that name official"... ugh... I understand what you are trying to say (I think), and am okay with it.

While God voted for that person, that person never voted for himself which is the act of the second birth.

Ah, so it's not God's purpose of election, because of His mercy and compassion on some and not others, according to His will... you know, like Paul says in Romans 9... but it's rather we who elect ourselves. LOL! And when Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit", He's just speaking nonsense (or lying), right? Shaking my head...

You have a ways to go, Timtofly. A good place to start would be to be honest to and about others, and to yourself.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think the doctrine does not understand that it is re-defining this.

Understood. That's only what you think ~ not to say, EWQ, that what you think is not significant or noteworthy... I'm not saying that... but only what you think it is redefining ~ and I respect that, but it does not.

It (and those who believe in it) actually believe the first resurrection in Rev 20 is a spiritual resurrection, but it isn't, so a re-defining is happening.

We disagree. As... has been apparent for quite a while now... And neither you nor I are alone in our understandings regarding this matter.

You ASSUMED I was accusing an intentional re-defining when I never said that.

Understood. But I still, while knowing now that you did not mean it this way ~ say that someone re-defining something is a conscious and intentional act. But, to-may-to... to-mah-to. Surely that's enough on this...

None of this is accurate. No accusation was made at "anyone". I spoke about a doctrine and never said anything about intentionally "altering its meaning".

Understood.

Dear Lord I hope this is the end of this...

Grace and peace to you, EWQ.

 

[Timtofly]

How do you reconcile your doctrine with the fact that these martyred saints have already lived and reigned with Christ before their death?

That is not what the verse states. They lived and reigned after being beheaded, not before.

He saw them as beheaded. He did not see that they would be beheaded in the future. He viewed them as part of a past event where they were beheaded. They had no physical body, due to that fact. Then they stood before thrones, and then lived and reigned for a thousand years. They lived during the same thousand years Satan was bound. So they were dead before Satan was bound. And they died by being beheaded.

 

[rwb]

That is not what the verse states. They lived and reigned after being beheaded, not before.

He saw them as beheaded. He did not see that they would be beheaded in the future. He viewed them as part of a past event where they were beheaded. They had no physical body, due to that fact. Then they stood before thrones, and then lived and reigned for a thousand years. They lived during the same thousand years Satan was bound. So they were dead before Satan was bound. And they died by being beheaded.

No Tim, John didn't SEE them at all. He was given to understand not to physically see that martyred saints were alive in heaven after physical death because in life they LIVED and REIGNED with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years. You show you agree when you said "He viewed them as part of a past event where they were beheaded." Yes, John was given to know, understand, perceive, be aware of the FACT that death could not hold these faithful martyred saints. Because after they physically died, they ascended to heaven a living (spirit) soul. John never writes that he sees them physically alive after physical death. John writes only that after physical death they, as spiritual body, are still alive in heaven waiting to be reunited with resurrected immortal & incorruptible body of flesh in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[Timtofly]

No Tim, John didn't SEE them at all. He was given to understand not to physically see that martyred saints were alive in heaven after physical death because in life they LIVED and REIGNED with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years. You show you agree when you said "He viewed them as part of a past event where they were beheaded." Yes, John was given to know, understand, perceive, be aware of the FACT that death could not hold these faithful martyred saints. Because after they physically died, they ascended to heaven a living (spirit) soul. John never writes that he sees them physically alive after physical death. John writes only that after physical death they, as spiritual body, are still alive in heaven waiting to be reunited with resurrected immortal & incorruptible body of flesh in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

That is a lot of additional personal opinion there. The first resurrection is physical, so he did see their physical bodies live and reign after they were beheaded.

"And I saw thrones"

John did see these thrones.

"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded"

John saw them stand in judgment as souls without a physical body. Their physical death was a past event at that point. They were not the dead still unredeemed. They were waiting to be sentenced as redeemed. There is no Resurrection of Adam's old dead flesh. They are waiting for God's permanent incorruptible physical body. You just skip over 2 Corinthians 5:1 and assume these are standing at their second judgment. No! This is their judgment, because they were not redeemed prior to physical death. The church is not appearing before these thrones. The church does not need reconciled. These stand apart from both the GWT and the church. Neither are these the dead standing in a state of death. All that they need is God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

They cannot rule and reign as naked souls. Give me one verse that declares naked souls rule and reign any where in Scripture. They did not die during these thousand years. They ruled and reigned in God's permanent incorruptible physical body without sin and without a sin nature. As afforded all the saints redeemed from the earth. 2 Corinthians 5:1. They are part of that camp of the saints still alive at the end of the thousand years, because they are the subject of those ruling and reigning with Christ. No verse claims they were in heaven at any point. Where are these thrones set up? John just saw an angel come down from heaven, so he was on the earth. Then thrones are set up. Someone rules with Christ on the earth, as thrones are plural. That is just in that chapter, not even considering the end of Revelation 19.

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand."

Can you not see that John saw. It does not matter if he understood. But now you claim no one can understand, because John never saw anything, but understood what you are still rejecting. John understood what he saw and wrote it down that he both saw and understood. These facts do not need any additional understanding per some eschatological teaching. We don't need to understand or be told that only Jesus is the first resurrection. That is an additional theological point not even the topic of the chapter. Salvation is not the topic of the chapter. We should understand they are saved as they are not the dead that stand a thousand years later. They are separated from the rest of the dead.

They do experience the first resurrection, because they are considered blessed as opposed to those standing as dead a thousand years later. The topic is not even dying throughout the next thousand years, but you add that opinion to the chapter. They are beheaded prior to standing before thrones. The thrones are set up prior to the beginning of this thousand year period of time. This is the same period of time Satan is bound. So Satan is bound and these prior beheaded people are judged at the start of this same period of time.

 

[rwb]

The first resurrection is physical, so he did see their physical bodies live and reign after they were beheaded.

They had no physical body because their body died and returned to dust when their heads were cut off! How many times must it be shown that NONE will be physically resurrected according to Scripture until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds on the last day of this age when time given this earth for hearing the Gospel and becoming saved shall be no longer?

Physically dead bodies return to the earth from which they came. Then after physical death only the spirit in man lives on in heaven IF in life, before we die, we have been born again of His Spirit.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John is given to understand that these disembodied living spirit souls are a spiritual body of believers still alive in heaven after physical death because before they were physically martyred, they lived and reigned with Christ in time symbolized a thousand years. A spirit has no body, and therefore cannot be physically seen, but as are the angels in heaven. Just as in life mankind possesses a natural body of flesh and blood for life on this earth, so too faithful man's spirit through Christ's Spirit in us shall be a spiritual body in heaven where mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit.

Matthew 22:30 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Luke 20:36 (KJV) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The hour written in the book of John that is coming, Paul writes shall come when the last trumpet sounds. Those who have physically died in Christ will be resurrected from the graves with immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh & blood, now fit to inherit the Kingdom of God physically. And John writes then time given this earth for hearing the Gospel and being saved shall be no longer. The mystery of God that Gentiles shall complete the Kingdom of God shall be finished, the last one to be saved has come into the Kingdom via His Spirit in us when we are born again. The time of Judgment has come and the eternal age on the new earth shall begin.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[Timtofly]

They had no physical body because their body died and returned to dust when their heads were cut off! How many times must it be shown that NONE will be physically resurrected according to Scripture until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds on the last day of this age when time given this earth for hearing the Gospel and becoming saved shall be no longer?

Physically dead bodies return to the earth from which they came. Then after physical death only the spirit in man lives on in heaven IF in life, before we die, we have been born again of His Spirit.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John is given to understand that these disembodied living spirit souls are a spiritual body of believers still alive in heaven after physical death because before they were physically martyred, they lived and reigned with Christ in time symbolized a thousand years. A spirit has no body, and therefore cannot be physically seen, but as are the angels in heaven. Just as in life mankind possesses a natural body of flesh and blood for life on this earth, so too faithful man's spirit through Christ's Spirit in us shall be a spiritual body in heaven where mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit.

Matthew 22:30 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Luke 20:36 (KJV) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The hour written in the book of John that is coming, Paul writes shall come when the last trumpet sounds. Those who have physically died in Christ will be resurrected from the graves with immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh & blood, now fit to inherit the Kingdom of God physically. And John writes then time given this earth for hearing the Gospel and being saved shall be no longer. The mystery of God that Gentiles shall complete the Kingdom of God shall be finished, the last one to be saved has come into the Kingdom via His Spirit in us when we are born again. The time of Judgment has come and the eternal age on the new earth shall begin.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Do you not claim that standing in judgment is about rewards?

Their reward was the first resurrection.

Do you not claim the first resurrection is physical?

Now you are waffling that the first resurrection is only physical when you say so arbitrarily.

Their hour came when they appeared before those thrones, and received the first resurrection. You deny that point, even though John both saw and understood the event.

The rest of the dead waited another 1,000 years or so before their hour happened. Face the fact the hour was coming and already was when Jesus spoke those words. Lazarus experienced the first resurrection. Jesus declared that day He was the Resurrection and the Life. Not that He would be the Resurrection and the Life thousands of years later in the future.

All the OT redeemed experienced the first resurrection at the Cross. All in Christ experience the first resurrection when called out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, into God's permanent incorruptible physical body per 2 Corinthians 5:1. That happens when the soul leaves this body at what we define as physical death. The hour is coming and has been a reality for thousands of years. And the rest of the dead keep waiting until Jesus hands back creation to God.

Time being up at the 7th Trumpet is Daniel's 70 weeks. You claim the 70 weeks were up in the first century. So your version of Revelation 10 happened in the first century. And thus your first resurrection was already available in the first century either way. Your way or God's way.

After the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, there will be no more of Adam's dead corruptible flesh in existence. So salvation will be a moot point. No one will be in sin. Daniel 9:24 will be the normal reality on earth. Not just a spiritual victory, but a physical victory. Those beheaded live a thousand years in God's permanent incorruptible physical body. They are not naked souls unrestored. They stood before thrones and sentenced to eternal life as restored humans, not dead as only a soul.

No such thing as a spiritual body by your definition, ie a glorified soul. The spiritual body is God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Because it is not a dead body from Adam. A soul will have on a physical body. Being physical is not the issue. Being in a state of death as in Adam's dead image is the issue. Adam had a physical body before he disobeyed. Then he lost that physical body, and was given a physical body of death and decay. Both were physical. One was life, the other death. Life and death is the issue. At the 7th Trumpet, time for Adam's dead flesh will be no more. We know the 70 weeks are not over, nor Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Humans are still living in Adam's dead corruptible flesh today.

 

[rwb]

Do you not claim that standing in judgment is about rewards?

Their reward was the first resurrection.

No Timothy, the reward for those who have part in the resurrection of Christ, who is the "first resurrection", is NOW eternal spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us and shall be immortal & incorruptible physical life in the age that is coming when the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, and Christ returns!

Do you not claim the first resurrection is physical?

For about the millionth time now, NONE shall be physically resurrected until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds that time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God is finished and TIME SYMBOLIZED A THOUSAND YEARS shall be no more! The first resurrection IS THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST THAT WE MUST PARTAKE OF IN LIFE BEFORE WE PHYSICALLY DIE! Christ physically resurrected from the dead so that whosoever belongs to Him could share in His resurrection life, now spiritually, and when He comes again physically.

You need to remove your Premillennial glasses so that you might clearly see that John did not see physically resurrected people alive on this earth for one thousand years!

 

[Timtofly]

No Timothy, the reward for those who have part in the resurrection of Christ, who is the "first resurrection", is NOW eternal spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us and shall be immortal & incorruptible physical life in the age that is coming when the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, and Christ returns!


For about the millionth time now, NONE shall be physically resurrected until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds that time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God is finished and TIME SYMBOLIZED A THOUSAND YEARS shall be no more! The first resurrection IS THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST THAT WE MUST PARTAKE OF IN LIFE BEFORE WE PHYSICALLY DIE! Christ physically resurrected from the dead so that whosoever belongs to Him could share in His resurrection life, now spiritually, and when He comes again physically.

You need to remove your Premillennial glasses so that you might clearly see that John did not see physically resurrected people alive on this earth for one thousand years!

My point does not have to do with pre-mill. The Second Coming is premill, not just being saved. I don't have to remove the Second Coming from the point of what the first resurrection is. The first resurrection was established even prior to the Cross. You interpret all of Scripture according to Revelation 20 even more than I do. You claim Revelation 20 is the key to that final singular point of resurrection.

If John did not see people living on earth for 1,000 years, then neither did he see Satan bound for 1,000 years. You deny both! You deny the 1,000 years period. You claim it is undefined, instead of defined. You claim John saw something else entirely. You define the entire church age according to your interpretation of Revelation 20. You cannot deny that point. You claim Revelation 20 is just a different view between the first and second comings of Christ. That is your confessed interpretation as an Amil.

The OT were physically resurrected at the Cross. Matthew 27. The hour has been since Jesus said those words you keep quoting. The first resurrection is just as physical as the first birth and first death. Should we start convincing people the first birth and first death are not physical either, but merely indicative of living spiritually on earth? The spiritual part is covered in the second birth and second death. That is why there is a first and second. The first is physical. The second is spiritual.

So you see these verses in reverse order?

They lived during the "thousand years". They then stood before thrones. The reward was that they were beheaded. Is that how you see it, in that order? Because that is how you keep saying it should be interpreted. You have the reward (lived and reigned, first resurrection), the thrones, and then they are beheaded souls, as the outcome of those thrones set up, and now in heaven as headless and bodiless souls.

 

[rwb]

All the OT redeemed experienced the first resurrection at the Cross.

This is actually one statement from you that I do fully agree with. I believe this is depicting Old Covenant faithful saints, who physically died waiting for the promised Messiah who would come to redeem them from death. They could not have part in Christ, the "first resurrection" before Christ came and made atonement for sin, and defeated death. John is given to understand that they did not physically die without hope or die in vain. Because since the advent of Christ was fulfilled these OT martyrs ascended to heaven with Christ after His resurrection. We're told that before Christ ascended to heaven, He first descended into the place of the dead (lower parts of the earth). In the OT called the bosom of Abraham, where Christ went to set the captives free. Christ took them with Him to heaven spiritually alive, so that we might know that death had no power over all who are of faith, whether Old Covenant faithful or New.

Galatians 3:8-9 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 4:3-5 (KJV) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:6 (KJV) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[rwb]

The first resurrection was established even prior to the Cross.

Yes He (first resurrection) was! In fact Scripture speaks of Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Not only was Christ the first resurrection prior to the cross, but He was ordained to be the sacrificial Lamb (first resurrection) in heaven before creation.

John 17:24 (KJV) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:20 (KJV) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[rwb]

The OT were physically resurrected at the Cross. Matthew 27.

There is not one dot or tittle to be found in Scripture to prove these OT faithful saints were physically resurrected from the graves. But we have evidence to prove these saints of Old did indeed ascend to heaven as a living spiritual body of believers. The holy city they went to and appeared to many was not Jerusalem of old, but Jerusalem above. And the myriad of angels in heaven witnessed their arrival to heaven. These Old Covenant faithful saints are symbolically numbered 144,000 of "all the tribes of the children of Israel" (Rev 7). They are depicted as being sealed with His Spirit which is why when we read of them again, they are with Christ in heaven, a spiritual body of believers of Old.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

[PinSeeker]

The OT were physically resurrected at the Cross.

LOL!!! Where does Moses live, Timtofly, somewhere in the Middle East, maybe? Papua New Guinea? Somewhere on the west coast in the United States?

Christ was not born in need of the first resurrection, as He was (and is God). His physical resurrection, of which he was the firstfruits (1 Corinthians 15:20-23, immediately below), assures the second ~ physical ~ resurrection for every human being at the end of the present age regardless whether he or she died physically prior to or after the time of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection;

"But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a Man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ."​

The outcome of this second resurrection for all said human beings will differ, either to eternal life or to judgment/eternal punishment (John 5:28-29). For those human beings born again of the Spirit and thus experience the spiritual first resurrection during their physical lives, they are ensured of being included among those who are spared the second death and enter into eternal life in the new heaven and new earth rather than, as the others do, go away into judgment as a result of the final Judgment.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Timtofly]

There is not one dot or tittle to be found in Scripture to prove these OT faithful saints were physically resurrected from the graves. But we have evidence to prove these saints of Old did indeed ascend to heaven as a living spiritual body of believers. The holy city they went to and appeared to many was not Jerusalem of old, but Jerusalem above. And the myriad of angels in heaven witnessed their arrival to heaven. These Old Covenant faithful saints are symbolically numbered 144,000 of "all the tribes of the children of Israel" (Rev 7). They are depicted as being sealed with His Spirit which is why when we read of them again, they are with Christ in heaven, a spiritual body of believers of Old.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Yet the first resurrection is physical. Lazarus came out of Abraham's bosom with a permanent incorruptible physical body. Refute that.

This is actually one statement from you that I do fully agree with. I believe this is depicting Old Covenant faithful saints, who physically died waiting for the promised Messiah who would come to redeem them from death. They could not have part in Christ, the "first resurrection" before Christ came and made atonement for sin, and defeated death. John is given to understand that they did not physically die without hope or die in vain. Because since the advent of Christ was fulfilled these OT martyrs ascended to heaven with Christ after His resurrection. We're told that before Christ ascended to heaven, He first descended into the place of the dead (lower parts of the earth). In the OT called the bosom of Abraham, where Christ went to set the captives free. Christ took them with Him to heaven spiritually alive, so that we might know that death had no power over all who are of faith, whether Old Covenant faithful or New.

Galatians 3:8-9 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 4:3-5 (KJV) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:6 (KJV) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Yep, the first resurrection is physical. Lazarus is all the proof we need. Not some alternate understanding from human theology.

Yes He (first resurrection) was! In fact Scripture speaks of Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Not only was Christ the first resurrection prior to the cross, but He was ordained to be the sacrificial Lamb (first resurrection) in heaven before creation.

John 17:24 (KJV) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:20 (KJV) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Yep, Jesus was physically on earth and physically ascended with all the OT redeemed after their physical resurrection.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

We know they have a permanent incorruptible physical body just like they used to have a temporal corruptible physical body. Perhaps you don't trust Paul's knowledge, and lean on your own understanding? 2 Corinthians 5 should be your proof that is lacking according to you. Of course that permanent incorruptible physical body is waiting for all in Paradise. Certainly people are not living on earth currently in that permanent incorruptible physical body.

 

[Timtofly]

Grace and peace to all.

Hello PinSeeker.

Did anyone post that the OT redeemed are currently on earth?

 

[rwb]

Yet the first resurrection is physical. Lazarus came out of Abraham's bosom with a permanent incorruptible physical body. Refute that.

What is there to refute? If Lazarus was risen with a permanent incorruptible physical body, why is he not still physically alive? Perhaps you lack understanding of what a permanent incorruptible body is? The FACT that he long ago physically died proves you're somewhat confused. You do say the strangest things!