The final harvest?

[rwb]

I think you miss the point there are 2 different bodies.

Exactly! There is a spiritual body of believers and there is a natural/physical body of believers!

In this life or as John writes TIME, symbolized a thousand years, we have lived and shall live and have reigned and shall reign with Christ in natural physical body of believers, and then when we die we shall live with Christ in heaven a spiritual body of believers! Seems you just might be getting it finally!

 

[rwb]

You really don't like eternal life? You really put it off until the very end of reality? Can you not even quote 2 Corinthians 5:1? The first resurrection is what all in Christ experience at the moment of the first death. Because they don't die. But you cannot take Adam's dead corruptible physical body to Paradise. That is why God provides His permanent incorruptible physical body. Eternal life is as physical as spiritual.

Don't know about you Tim, for God alone knows our hearts, but I am and have been eternally alive with Christ through His Spirit in me from the moment I became saved. But I shall not live and reign with Christ in immortal & incorruptible flesh before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds that time given this earth for being saved shall be no longer. It is only by partaking of Christ's "first" resurrection while we are alive that we experience birth from above being born again when the Spirit of Christ comes into us. It is only our spirit that possesses eternal life, because our moral & corruptible body is destined to death from the fall. Eternal life is spiritual, and mortal, incorruptible life shall be physical! We have the ONE spiritual resurrection NOW, and because we have His Spirit in us, we have blessed assurance that we shall also have the ONE physical resurrection to come.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly! There is a spiritual body of believers and there is a natural/physical body of believers!

In this life or as John writes TIME, symbolized a thousand years, we have lived and shall live and have reigned and shall reign with Christ in natural physical body of believers, and then when we die we shall live with Christ in heaven a spiritual body of believers! Seems you just might be getting it finally!

All I am getting is that you think the church is carnal on earth, and only saved after they get to heaven.

 

[rwb]

All I am getting is that you think the church is carnal on earth, and only saved after they get to heaven.

The Church as She exists on earth will always be both carnal and righteous together. Why do you think there are so many warnings in Scripture telling us that in this world both wheat and tare, saved and unsaved, righteous and unrighteous shall grow together until the end of this world has come, and Christ sends His angels to gather out of his Kingdom those who do not belong.

Matthew 13:30 (KJV) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:37-43 (KJV) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

We are eternally secure in Christ through His Spirit in us when we have been saved according to grace through faith. Many speak of this as "the already, but not yet". Don't know if you've ever heard that terminology? It means that our spirit, through His Spirit in us HAS ETERNAL LIFE. When our spirit returns to God who gave it when our body dies, we shall ascend spiritually alive to heaven a spiritual body of believers where we will be until a moment coming when the last trumpet sounds on the last day of this age, when TIME, symbolized a thousand years shall be no longer.

 

[Timtofly]

we have blessed assurance that we shall also have the ONE physical resurrection to come.

The first resurrection is the physical resurrection into a permanent incorruptible physical body. Yet you insist we have the first resurrection, but we don't have the first resurrection in the same sentence.

You do realize that the physical resurrection of Jesus out of the tomb is the demonstration of the first resurrection that is available.

You say in Christ. I say because of Jesus Christ. Only the Word can call a soul out of the grave into a permanent incorruptible physical body. That new physical body is waiting in Paradise. The first resurrection is available for all in Christ, because the soul in Christ never tastes death, but is immediately placed into the new permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. That is the first resurrection.

Those souls in the OT had to wait in death, in Abraham's bosom until the Cross, that last day resurrection. Then all the redeemed in Abraham's bosom were given a first resurrection into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That is the first resurrection because of Jesus Christ, and the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The first resurrection was given to those souls after their first death. Now since the Cross, all in Christ immediately experience the first resurrection after that first death. There is no longer a wait in death. We pass from death into life. The soul takes off the corruptible and puts on the incorruptible. No one on earth can prevent that from happening. The first resurrection is a physical body the same as the first birth gave one Adam's dead corruptible physical body. The first death is leaving this dead physical body so we can enjoy the first resurrection.

That is the only resurrection that is pertinent in creation. There is still a soul, body, and spirit for those in Christ, and especially for those already in Paradise.

 

[rwb]

The first resurrection is the physical resurrection into a permanent incorruptible physical body. Yet you insist we have the first resurrection, but we don't have the first resurrection in the same sentence.

You do realize that the physical resurrection of Jesus out of the tomb is the demonstration of the first resurrection that is available.

You say in Christ. I say because of Jesus Christ. Only the Word can call a soul out of the grave into a permanent incorruptible physical body. That new physical body is waiting in Paradise. The first resurrection is available for all in Christ, because the soul in Christ never tastes death, but is immediately placed into the new permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. That is the first resurrection.

Those souls in the OT had to wait in death, in Abraham's bosom until the Cross, that last day resurrection. Then all the redeemed in Abraham's bosom were given a first resurrection into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That is the first resurrection because of Jesus Christ, and the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The first resurrection was given to those souls after their first death. Now since the Cross, all in Christ immediately experience the first resurrection after that first death. There is no longer a wait in death. We pass from death into life. The soul takes off the corruptible and puts on the incorruptible. No one on earth can prevent that from happening. The first resurrection is a physical body the same as the first birth gave one Adam's dead corruptible physical body. The first death is leaving this dead physical body so we can enjoy the first resurrection.

That is the only resurrection that is pertinent in creation. There is still a soul, body, and spirit for those in Christ, and especially for those already in Paradise.

Tim, you're really going to have to bring biblical proof to your opinions OR understand your OPINIONS are altogether without any merit! How many times must you be shown verses from Scripture that assures there will NOT be a physical resurrection of the dead before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds on the last day???

Unless you bring verification from Scripture, there is nothing more to discuss with you here! It's become quite apparent that you will cling to your unbiblical opinions and doctrine no matter how many times you are shown you have NOT truth!

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, you're really going to have to bring biblical proof to your opinions OR understand your OPINIONS are altogether without any merit! How many times must you be shown verses from Scripture that assures there will NOT be a physical resurrection of the dead before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds on the last day???

Unless you bring verification from Scripture, there is nothing more to discuss with you here! It's become quite apparent that you will cling to your unbiblical opinions and doctrine no matter how many times you are shown you have NOT truth!

I have. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

You have yet to address that verse.

Matthew 27:51-53 clearly establishes a physical resurrection. Lazarus was clearly called out of his grave by Jesus Christ as Jesus was declaring He was the Resurrection and the Life. John 11.

Now show one verse that clearly states all still wait in death until the end of reality. What I mean by all is every human in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

You claim the first resurrection was available since the Cross. You just refuse to acknowledge that Scripture points out the first resurrection is physical.

 

[rwb]

I have. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

You have yet to address that verse.

Matthew 27:51-53 clearly establishes a physical resurrection. Lazarus was clearly called out of his grave by Jesus Christ as Jesus was declaring He was the Resurrection and the Life. John 11.

Now show one verse that clearly states all still wait in death until the end of reality. What I mean by all is every human in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

You claim the first resurrection was available since the Cross. You just refuse to acknowledge that Scripture points out the first resurrection is physical.

You may not like what I've said regarding 2Cor 5:1, but you need to look again if you think I've not addressed your misunderstanding of the verse in context.

If Mt 27:51-53 establishes a physical resurrection, how do you reconcile that opinion with John 5:28-29? Lazarus was indeed physically resurrected BEFORE the cross and resurrection of Christ. There are other examples of dead people being physically resurrected from the dead before the first advent of Christ. None of them were resurrected immortal & incorruptible because they all eventually physically died again. That means they did not have part in the first resurrection, because if they had they would overcome the second death. We will not know if they lived according to grace through faith until the physical resurrection in an hour coming. Only then will we know if they were of faith in life and therefore, like Abraham shall overcome the second death.

Once again, you need to understand the "first resurrection" pertains to the resurrection of Christ, proving death had no power over Him. That's why it is imperative that we partake of Christ's resurrection life before we physically die, so that we too overcome the second death.

 

[Timtofly]

You may not like what I've said regarding 2Cor 5:1, but you need to look again if you think I've not addressed your misunderstanding of the verse in context.

All you addressed is your doctrine of your version of "first resurrection".

Yet you claim there is not a permanent incorruptible physical body until thousands of years into the future.

Paul claimed there was a physical body from God in Paradise immediately, not thousands of years later.

 

[PinSeeker]

Matthew 27:51-53 clearly establishes a physical resurrection.

Yes, no one disagrees that it "establishes a physical resurrection," but I would submit that what happened here is that some (probably pious Old Testament figures and godly intertestamental Jews) were reimbodied to witness to the new order of things that was now in the process of dawning. This shows (it is a visual representation) that the resurrection of people who died looking forward to the Messiah ~ believers in Old Testament times ~ depends on Christ's actual death and resurrection, just as does the future resurrection of Jesus's disciples who lived after Christ even up to and through today. In saying "coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they went into the holy city," Matthew jumps ahead, treating materials topically, as he often does in his gospel, and begins to speak of events that would happen after the resurrection, and in that way corresponds to Hebrews 11, where we read that all people who are saved, regardless whether their times were before or after Jesus, are saved in the same way. And, since those resurrected here did indeed physically die again at some point, this is also an object lesson that the true physical resurrection of all on Jesus's return will be a reality. It is incontrovertible that "(the) hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).

Lazarus was clearly called out of his grave by Jesus Christ as Jesus was declaring He was the Resurrection and the Life. John 11.

Yes, but he physically died again; likewise Jairus's daughter (Mark 5, John 8). We are not told otherwise.

NOTE: This is why, Timtofly, I teased you a bit before by asking where Moses was living these days... <smile>​

Like those resurrected at the time of Jesus's death on the cross in Matthew 27:51-53, they will be bodily resurrected at Jesus's return. It is possible, although no way to know, that all these people died physically at the time of Jesus's ascension to heaven after His resurrection (or sometime between His resurrection and ascension) and their spirits ascended with Him. In any case, they will be included with those who are resurrected physically on Jesus's return to the resurrection of eternal life (John 5:28-29).

Now show one verse that clearly states all still wait in death until the end of reality.

Well, their physical bodies do. Their spirits are very conscious, very alive, and... either with Jesus (like the thief crucified with Jesus on His right) or not (like the thief crucified on His left) and the rich man portrayed in Jesus's... chilling, frightening, really... parable in Luke 16:19-31).

You claim the first resurrection was available since the Cross.

Yes, and spiritual in nature it is, not physical; it's the raising from death in sin to life in Christ that Paul talks about in Ephesians 2.

You just refuse to acknowledge that Scripture points out the first resurrection is physical.

Well, in terms of Revelation 20, what you say about our "refusal" is correct, because... the first resurrection is not the physical one.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

All you addressed is your doctrine of your version of "first resurrection".

Yet you claim there is not a permanent incorruptible physical body until thousands of years into the future.

Paul claimed there was a physical body from God in Paradise immediately, not thousands of years later.

No, actually Tim what I said is that there will not be a physical immortal & incorruptible resurrection until TIME, symbolize a thousand years has ended. Since we are still currently living in TIME, it is apparent that a thousand years of symbolic time continues.

No, Paul did not claim there was a physical body from God in paradise (heaven) immediately?? I assume you mean immediately after physical death?? Paul tells us that when our body dies, we as spiritual body of believers ascend to heaven a living (spirit) soul.

 

[rwb]

Yes, no one disagrees that it "establishes a physical resurrection," but I would submit that what happened here is that some (probably pious Old Testament figures and godly intertestamental Jews) were reimbodied to witness to the new order of things that was now in the process of dawning. This shows (it is a visual representation) that the resurrection of people who died looking forward to the Messiah ~ believers in Old Testament times ~ depends on Christ's actual death and resurrection, just as does the future resurrection of Jesus's disciples who lived after Christ even up to and through today. In saying "coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they went into the holy city," Matthew jumps ahead, treating materials topically, as he often does in his gospel, and begins to speak of events that would happen after the resurrection, and in that way corresponds to Hebrews 11, where we read that all people who are saved, regardless whether their times were before or after Jesus, are saved in the same way. And, since those resurrected here did indeed physically die again at some point, this is also an object lesson that the true physical resurrection of all on Jesus's return will be a reality. It is incontrovertible that "(the) hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).

It is possible that the resurrection of saints from the graves after the resurrection of Christ was physical. But I cannot agree with this being a depiction of a physical resurrection because that cannot be reconciled with the words Christ spoke in Jo 5:28-29. So there is not forced contradiction into Scripture, I believe these Old Covenant faithful saints who died waiting for the Messiah to come and redeem them from the grave, or that part of the grave called of old, Abraham's bosom, were spiritually resurrected, thereby having part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Christ, and ascended with Christ to heaven spiritually alive through His Spirit. I believe this is referenced in Rev 7 with the sealing of the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel, or the faithful servants of God from Old who were first sealed, thereby partaking of the first resurrection. They had to be sealed and spiritually raised up before the Spirit was sent unto the four corners of the earth..

Another problem I find in believing this was a physical resurrection is how there are over 500 recorded witnesses attesting to having seen Christ's resurrected body. How can there be no written witnesses for this spectacular event? Would not this great miracle have given even greater credibility to Christ being the Messiah? All the Bible says, is that "they went into the holy city and appeared to many". Who are the many they appeared to? We assume they were physically alive people who lived in the time of Christ. So, why no written record of them stating they saw dead men live again, just as with Lazarus? Remember how the physical resurrection of Lazarus was so incredible that the Jews sought to kill him, rather than let this miracle be widely known. Here we find a great miraculous physical resurrection of Old Covenant faithful saints, and none to verify this bodily resurrection to physical life from the dead. That doesn't seem plausible to me.

Why would Matthew write of Jerusalem of old as the "holy city" after the cross and resurrection of Christ? Did not Christ say of Jerusalem "Behold, your house if left unto you desolate"? There is only one "holy city" after the advent of Christ. It is not of this world or to be found upon this earth it is the Holy City, heavenly Jerusalem. Not a physical city but heavenly where we find an innumerable company of angels that I believe are who these spiritual resurrected saints, as the spiritual body of Christ; the Church, appeared to. These spiritually resurrected saints are as written in Hebrews "the spirits of just men made perfect."

Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[ewq1938]

It is incontrovertible that "(the) hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).

All relative passages in the bible must be taken together, not alone. The word resurrection appears twice, proving there are two separate resurrections not one mixed resurrection of both the just and unjust. Assumption that there is a short period of time between the two resurrections is error. Rev 20 gives the amount of time inbetween: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"

John was simply given more detailed info on the two resurrections in the Rev vision. Neither one is wrong, neither contradict each other. It is human interpretation that is wrong and "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" will always be on the side of Premill.

 

[PinSeeker]

All relative passages in the bible must be taken together, not alone.

Wholeheartedly agreed (as if I ever disagreed with that in principle, because I never did).

The word resurrection appears twice, proving there are two separate resurrections...

This much is true...

not one mixed resurrection of both the just and unjust.

Neither are "mixed," but one (the first, referred to in Revelation 20:4-6, is specific only to God's elect, and corresponds intensely with what Paul says in Ephesians 2 regarding the elect, that they are raised from death in sin to life in Christ) and the other (the second, referred to implicitly in Revelation 20 right before the events of Revelation 20:11-15, is general to all and corresponds intensely with what has just happened when Jesus describes the final judgment in Matthew 7:21-23 and 25:31-46, which describes in graphic detail the final Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15, and corresponds intensely with the event described by Jesus in John 5:28-29).

Nothing is "mixed." Good grief.

Assumption that there is a short period of time between the two resurrections is error.

That's not my assumption (or belief) at all.

Rev 20 gives the amount of time inbetween: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"

Which is a reference to the complete time ~ unknown to anyone except God ~ in His building His Israel (bringing in the full number of Gentile elect and then removing the partial hardening on Israel, the elect ethnic Jews.

John was simply given more detailed info on the two resurrections in the Rev vision.

I might quibble a bit with whether he was "simply given more detailed info on the two resurrections," because that's not necessarily true, but I really have no problem with that assertion, and don't really disagree with it, to be honest.

Neither one is wrong...

Of course not.

, neither contradict each other.

Of course not.

It is human interpretation that is wrong...

For some, yes, unfortunately.

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" will always be on the side of Premill.

As "Premill" defines/understands it, yes, but that's precisely the problem. Truth be told, with regard to "Premill" and "Amill" alike, both understandings are valid understandings with regard to the wording, but one ~ or both, possibly, but at least one ~ is... inaccurate. Yes, something... anything... can be valid, but still be inaccurate.

Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

Neither are "mixed," but one (the first, referred to in Revelation 20:4-6, is specific only to God's elect, and corresponds intensely with what Paul says in Ephesians 2 regarding the elect, that they are raised from death in sin to life in Christ)

Yes in life, which is something that already happened BEFORE they refused the beast and mark and were BEHEADED. After that is when the first resurrection of Rev 20 happens.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them (these were already spiritually resurrected BEFORE this verse) that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, (these people were physically killed) and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands (proof they were killed during the tribulation) ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (the dead seen to live and reign is a reference to a resurrection. A resurrection THE REST OF THE DEAD could not participate in according to the next verse)

Therefore, you are misidentifying the first resurrection in this passage. Spiritually resurrected people were killed, then took part in the first resurrection which cannot be anything other than the physical resurrection from physical death. The rest of the dead did not resurrect until much later because they were not worthy of resurrecting when the other did. Why? The unjust cannot resurrect at the time the just resurrect.

 

[rwb]

All relative passages in the bible must be taken together, not alone. The word resurrection appears twice, proving there are two separate resurrections not one mixed resurrection of both the just and unjust. Assumption that there is a short period of time between the two resurrections is error. Rev 20 gives the amount of time inbetween: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"

John was simply given more detailed info on the two resurrections in the Rev vision. Neither one is wrong, neither contradict each other. It is human interpretation that is wrong and "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" will always be on the side of Premill.

If we take the position that because John writes 'resurrection' twice, it proves two separate resurrections, then we also need to prove "the hour" when all the graves are opened is two separate hours, separated by ONE thousand years.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[rwb]

Which is a reference to the complete time ~ unknown to anyone except God ~ in His building His Israel (bringing in the full number of Gentile elect and then removing the partial hardening on Israel, the elect ethnic Jews.

In this I have to ask, where does Scripture say the partial hardening on Israel, the elect ethnic Jews shall be removed after the full number of Gentiles have been saved?

Would you not agree that all Israel, including elect ethnic Jews shall be saved during this Gospel age of grace. And that since the advent of Christ's coming to earth a man there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but one people in Christ, Christians from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, no one disagrees that it "establishes a physical resurrection," but I would submit that what happened here is that some (probably pious Old Testament figures and godly intertestamental Jews) were reimbodied to witness to the new order of things that was now in the process of dawning. This shows (it is a visual representation) that the resurrection of people who died looking forward to the Messiah ~ believers in Old Testament times ~ depends on Christ's actual death and resurrection, just as does the future resurrection of Jesus's disciples who lived after Christ even up to and through today.

If it was a demonstration then why did it not go viral across the whole earth? The Jews to this day, for the most part, don't even accept Jesus is the Messiah much less their entire religion doing so that week in time. Did the entire earth see Jesus ascend in glory with your alleged sampling of OT saints? Did a single disciple witness the event?

God removed the entire body of redeemed souls out of Abraham's bosom and into Paradise, because God does not do anything half way. The problem is not even the disciples were in on everything. Peter denied Jesus prior to the Cross. How was his state of mind for the next 24 hours? Just because everything is not spelled out for us, does not mean we deny the power of God.

If you allow a dozen to be taken out of their graves, why is it that much more difficult to point out 100%. You may as well claim a few people get raptured prior to Jacob's trouble, instead of forcing the entire church on earth to go through it. I mean if you claim a dozen lucky souls got to enter Paradise, and the rest still wait in death for 1993 years, why not have a God of partial promises, or some lottery system of belief?

 

[Timtofly]

No, actually Tim what I said is that there will not be a physical immortal & incorruptible resurrection until TIME, symbolize a thousand years has ended. Since we are still currently living in TIME, it is apparent that a thousand years of symbolic time continues.

No, Paul did not claim there was a physical body from God in paradise (heaven) immediately?? I assume you mean immediately after physical death?? Paul tells us that when our body dies, we as spiritual body of believers ascend to heaven a living (spirit) soul.

Why can you not even quote the verse and make your point? You have had plenty of opportunities to quote the one single verse that states otherwise.

 

[Timtofly]

Here we find a great miraculous physical resurrection of Old Covenant faithful saints, and none to verify this bodily resurrection to physical life from the dead. That doesn't seem plausible to me.

Because God gave them over to great deception so they would be destroyed.

The hour started with Lazarus. There is no future single resurrection of the dead, period.

Why is it so hard to accept that Paradise was opened at the Cross, because of the NT Atonement Covenant? They could now enter Paradise, a physical place, with a physical body. Jesus told Mary, He was about to ascend but would return that same day. Do you not accept that physical bodily ascension either? The ascension witnessed days later in Acts 1 was not the only ascension into Paradise. Jesus did have plenty of time to be seen, but His first mission was to ascend to heaven and present the entire OT redeemed body to God. "Christ the firstfruits" as Paul put it in 1 Corinthians 15:23. Those who came out of their graves came out and appeared to many those 3 days, but ascended on Sunday with Jesus. So did Lazarus, but we were never told the specifics. Where is the proof any of them later died and was buried again? The reason we are not told is that they all left, and no one witnessed that ascension. Either Jesus lied to Mary or we have that testimony that Paul did give us. Ephesians 4:8-10

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) "