The Rapture is Post-trib

[The Light]

It is the only coming. The resurrection and rapture happen then. I have proven this many times by quoting Paul.

Think you want. I provided the scripture. If you can't see Him come for the 144,000 first fruits, that's on you.

You should know the seals are not events happening at the time of the seal being opened.

We are given a vision of the end times. When those seals are opened the event will happen. Your logic is very flawed.

The multitude is from an entirely different timeframe. You errantly think Rev is chronological but it isn't. That's the first advanced understanding the HS gives those who are seeking to understand Rev.

Ok, get out your sledge and pound those square pegs into round holes.

Of course, Revelation is not Chronological, but the seals are Chronological, 1 thru 7.

Until you UNDERSTAND what is written, you will never understand the Word of God.

Until you accept what is written you will never understand the Word of God. The choice is believe what is written, or make a bunch of stuff up so it fits your doctrine.

 

[PinSeeker]

Rev ch19 is the definitive Return of the King = JESUS Second Coming

Do you see that in Rev 19:11-21 ?

I know this was addressed to Spiritual Israelite, David, but I'm going to speak to it too, if you don't mind.

Yes, we agree on this; premillennialists (and postmillennialists) and amillennialists all agree on this. But ~ and I've said this same thing in other threads (maybe even this one... ), consider this, with what I just recently said (that the events described in Revelation 20:1-6 occur before both the events of Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:-10):

The millennial dispute at least partly concerns the chronological relation of Revelation 20:1-10 to Revelation 19:11-21, and it makes far more sense to see Revelation 20:1-15 as the last cycle of judgments, out of a total of seven, leading up to the Second Coming. Several different evidences point in this direction:

• The final battle in Revelation 20:7-10 is the same as the final battle in Revelation 16:14, 16; Revelation 17:14; and Revelation 19:11-21. I said this before, but didn't point out Revelation 16 and 17, and the point is that the similitude is repeated in Revelation in more instances than just the Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 passages.
• Similar language from Ezekiel 38-39 is used in the various descriptions of the final battle.
• The judgment of Satan in Revelation 20:10 parallels the judgments against Babylon (Revelation 17-18) and against the Beast and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:11-21). These enemies of God all receive their doom, and the visions depicting their doom are thematically rather than chronologically arranged.
• Certain features in Revelation 20:11-15 correspond to earlier descriptions of the Second Coming (Revelation 6:14; Revelation 11:18).
• Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21. If Revelation 20:1-6 were to represent events later than Revelation 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in Revelation 20:3.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[ewq1938]

Think you want. I provided the scripture. If you can't see Him come for the 144,000 first fruits, that's on you.

If you can't see he comes for them and all the saints at the second and only coming, that's on you.

Of course, Revelation is not Chronological, but the seals are Chronological, 1 thru 7.

They are not opened in chronological order.

Until you accept what is written you will never understand the Word of God. The choice is believe what is written, or make a bunch of stuff up so it fits your doctrine.

That's a pill you need to give to yourself. Being Pretrib already tells everyone you have the wrong theological position, a dangerous one that teaches people to desire and take part in the great apostasia departure.

 

[The Light]

They are not opened in chronological order.

Why? Because it doesn't fit your ill conceived doctrine? Get a grip. They are numbered for a reason.

That's a pill you need to give to yourself. Being Pretrib already tells everyone you have the wrong theological position, a dangerous one that teaches people to desire and take part in the great apostasia departure.

You have no idea what is going on all around you because you are looking for the antichrist. When you find him, it will be too late.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Why? Because it doesn't fit your ill conceived doctrine? Get a grip. They are numbered for a reason.

1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,

Not seal #1, but one of the 7 seals. Then he opens another, and a third etc. Does he open them horizontally right to left? Left to right? The point is, the seals were opened whatever way he wanted. But they were not marked or numbered. John merely writes down what he sees after each and uses a numerical system to identify what he saw as he saw it happen

They are numbered for a reason as you say. Just as 7 is complete.

 

[The Light]

1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,

Not seal #1, but one of the 7 seals. Then he opens another, and a third etc. Does he open them horizontally right to left? Left to right? The point is, the seals were opened whatever way he wanted. But they were not marked or numbered. John merely writes down what he sees after each and uses a numerical system to identify what he saw as he saw it happen

They are numbered for a reason as you say. Just as 7 is complete.

So he opens one of the seals and then another and another etc. So that is the order they occur in. Do you find it necessary to change the order they are opened in?

 

[ewq1938]

Why? Because it doesn't fit your ill conceived doctrine? Get a grip. They are numbered for a reason.

They aren't actually "numbered" we are only given a count of how many are opened. The first one opened is written as "opened one of the seals" but does not say which one. Only those paying attention to detail will notice this.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

You have no idea what is going on all around you because you are looking for the antichrist. When you find him, it will be too late.

At least I am doing what scripture says we should. Go ahead and don't watch out for these false christs:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Again, enjoy your "departure" if that is what you decide to stick with.

 

[David in NJ]

I know this was addressed to Spiritual Israelite, David, but I'm going to speak to it too, if you don't mind.

Yes, we agree on this; premillennialists (and postmillennialists) and amillennialists all agree on this. But ~ and I've said this same thing in other threads (maybe even this one... ), consider this, with what I just recently said (that the events described in Revelation 20:1-6 occur before both the events of Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:-10):

The millennial dispute at least partly concerns the chronological relation of Revelation 20:1-10 to Revelation 19:11-21, and it makes far more sense to see Revelation 20:1-15 as the last cycle of judgments, out of a total of seven, leading up to the Second Coming. Several different evidences point in this direction:

• The final battle in Revelation 20:7-10 is the same as the final battle in Revelation 16:14, 16; Revelation 17:14; and Revelation 19:11-21. I said this before, but didn't point out Revelation 16 and 17, and the point is that the similitude is repeated in Revelation in more instances than just the Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 passages.
• Similar language from Ezekiel 38-39 is used in the various descriptions of the final battle.
• The judgment of Satan in Revelation 20:10 parallels the judgments against Babylon (Revelation 17-18) and against the Beast and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:11-21). These enemies of God all receive their doom, and the visions depicting their doom are thematically rather than chronologically arranged.
• Certain features in Revelation 20:11-15 correspond to earlier descriptions of the Second Coming (Revelation 6:14; Revelation 11:18).
• Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21. If Revelation 20:1-6 were to represent events later than Revelation 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in Revelation 20:3.

Grace and peace to you, David.

The Second Coming is completed in Rev ch19

Chapter 20 begins the New Era where satan's influence Ends and he is locked up for 1,000 Years.
This New Era starts with the Resurrection of the Just = First Resurrection
This New Era also includes the Saints reigning with Christ for this 1,000 Year Period of Time.

There is no Second Coming in Rev ch20 but there is the Resurrection which can now take place because of His Second Coming in ch19.

 

[ewq1938]

1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,

Not seal #1, but one of the 7 seals. Then he opens another, and a third etc. Does he open them horizontally right to left? Left to right? The point is, the seals were opened whatever way he wanted. But they were not marked or numbered

Nice to see another person who has paid attention to detail about the seals. I literally just explained the same thing. It will fall upon deaf ears though

 

[The Light]

Nice to see another person who has paid attention to detail about the seals. I literally just explained the same thing. It will fall upon deaf ears though

Yeah. One of the seals is opened, and then the 2nd, then the 3rd seal, then the 4th seal, then the 5th seal, then the 6th seal and then the 7th seal. That would mean when one of the seals was opened, it was the 1st seal. Just common sense.

You have to change the order of the seals because you understand how they can open in order because that would mean that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal would be before the wrath of God.

Your claims are wrong because you have the Church going through the wrath of God and we are not appointed to wrath. Additionally we see that the gathering from heaven and earth is BEFORE the wrath of God.

2 Thes 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

[ewq1938]

Yeah. One of the seals is opened, and then the 2nd, then the 3rd seal, then the 4th seal, then the 5th seal, then the 6th seal and then the 7th seal. That would mean when one of the seals was opened, it was the 1st seal. Just common sense.

That is not common sense. The first seal opened is not given a number. It literally could be any of the 7 seals.

 

[The Light]

That is not common sense. The first seal opened is not given a number. It literally could be any of the 7 seals.

Well all the rest of them are given a number. 2 thru 7. That only leaves the 1st seal.

You have some really bad logic, though you try.......................and fail.

 

[No Pre-TB]

So he opens one of the seals and then another and another etc. So that is the order they occur in. Do you find it necessary to change the order they are opened in?

No, I don’t believe so. But the aim of this is only to understand that the scroll will be understood once all 7 are removed. The vision doesn’t imply Christ had to remove a specific seal first, only that he removed one of them at a time.

Another fascinating feature of the seal is that John hears thunder on the first one. Thunder from heaven alone is never wrath. When it’s accompanied with lightning, hail, fire and earthquakes it is a judgement. Thunder from heaven is something we are to listen and be attentive to.

Here is 1 example:
Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

 

[ewq1938]

Well all the rest of them are given a number. 2 thru 7. That only leaves the 1st seal.

You have some really bad logic, though you try.......................and fail.

Yet you say the other seals are given numbers from 2-7, which is false. He opens one of the seals, then he opens a second and a third etc. That wasn't seals number 1 and 2 and 3.

 

[PinSeeker]

The Second Coming is completed in Rev ch19

Agreed. But again, all Christ's enemies are defeated in Chapter 19 also. So if your reading is correct, there is no need for even Satan's binding in Revelation 20:2, because he and all Jesus's enemies have already been defeated. So, in that case, starting with Revelation 20:1, we have to see that as a retelling ~ or at least backtracking ~ in the timeline.

Chapter 20 begins the New Era...

Disagree. Chapter 21 does, though; God makes all things new, and the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven ~ heaven and earth are finally one. The events of 20:1-6 are not sequential to (after) the the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. I disagree with you on that, for at least the reasons I delineated above. Revelation as a whole is a retelling, seven times, of the events from Christ's advent to Christ's return, each time with a heavier accent on the latter. And concerning the specific place in Revelation we are talking about, the sixth "cycle" is from Revelation 17 to Revelation 19, and the seventh cycle is from Revelation 20:1 to Revelation 21:8.

There is no Second Coming in Rev ch20...

There is; it is in Revelation 20:7-10. although not explicitly stated. Jesus will come back and defeat all His enemies, and they are all defeated in Revelation 20:9-10, just as in Revelation 19:20:21.

...but there is the Resurrection which can now take place because of His Second Coming in ch19.

Agreed, in which case the final Judgment, described in Revelation 20:11-15 can take place. The two chapters are very complementary in that way, much as the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

Agreed. But again, all Christ's enemies are defeated in Chapter 19 also. So if your reading is correct, there is no need for even Satan's binding in Revelation 20:2, because he and all Jesus's enemies have already been defeated. So, in that case, starting with Revelation 20:1, we have to see that as a retelling ~ or at least backtracking ~ in the timeline.


Disagree. Chapter 21 does, though; God makes all things new, and the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven ~ heaven and earth are finally one. The events of 20:1-6 are not sequential to (after) the the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. I disagree with you on that, for at least the reasons I delineated above. Revelation as a whole is a retelling, seven times, of the events from Christ's advent to Christ's return, each time with a heavier accent on the latter. And concerning the specific place in Revelation we are talking about, the sixth "cycle" is from Revelation 17 to Revelation 19, and the seventh cycle is from Revelation 20:1 to Revelation 21:8.


There is; it is in Revelation 20:7-10. although not explicitly stated. Jesus will come back and defeat all His enemies, and they are all defeated in Revelation 20:9-10, just as in Revelation 19:20:21.


Agreed, in which case the final Judgment, described in Revelation 20:11-15 can take place. The two chapters are very complementary in that way, much as the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are.

Grace and peace to you.

i am just addressing this point you made = "So if your reading is correct, there is no need for even Satan's binding in Revelation 20:2"

Zechariah chapter 14 tells us that not everyone is destroyed.

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles."

Furthermore, God said in Revelation 20:1-3 that not everyone is destroyed.

 

[Timtofly]

That's the first advanced understanding the HS gives those who are seeking to understand Rev.

Stating that Revelation is not chronological is the first step into apostasy. That is adding to the book. It is written in the form, and stated in several places, "After this". That is a chronological progression.

 

[Timtofly]

Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21. If Revelation 20:1-6 were to represent events later than Revelation 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in Revelation 20:3.

There were no human enemies of God on earth period, before Eve was deceived. Not sure how an enemy of God would be deceieved to turn against God if they were already an enemy of God? The point of deception is that they are in total communion with God, and not an enemy at all.

Eve had the most perfect life. Evidently Satan convinced Eve it was not perfect enough. That is deception.

 

[Timtofly]

1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,

Not seal #1, but one of the 7 seals. Then he opens another, and a third etc. Does he open them horizontally right to left? Left to right? The point is, the seals were opened whatever way he wanted. But they were not marked or numbered. John merely writes down what he sees after each and uses a numerical system to identify what he saw as he saw it happen

They are numbered for a reason as you say. Just as 7 is complete.

So how do you know that the white horse was the literal 5th Seal? The giving of the robes was the literal 1st Seal? Etc.

Were you there and now able to confirm John wrote them down, out of order?

 

[No Pre-TB]

i am just addressing this point you made = "So if your reading is correct, there is no need for even Satan's binding in Revelation 20:2"

Zechariah chapter 14 tells us that not everyone is destroyed.

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles."

Furthermore, God said in Revelation 20:1-3 that not everyone is destroyed.

Also Isaiah 2:2-3