Question for non-JW's

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face2face

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It should suffice. But as I said, he is theologically driven to deny it.
It was proved conclusively to you both that John 8 shows Jesus teaching them who their father is...

1. Serpent
2. Cain
3. Ishmael

A careful reading of that section would show you if you removed your blindfolds and open your eyes.

That is one of the easiest sections of Scripture to explain and you struggle to see it?

Where has the old Wrangler gone? He would never use such a lame hypocritical argument as the one written above! You and @Aunty Jane both are theologically driven to believe in a rebel angel and to bail on a subject which you both initiated, disappointing.

F2F
 

face2face

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Hence the need for this thread.

The arrogant IDOL worshippers can't get past their IDOL of doctrine. PGiven that image bearers of God have different doctrine, how then shall we interact?

The legalists say 'off with your head,' have nothing to do with them. Jesus said the greatest command is unconditional. He didn't say anything about loving people provided their doctrine is right!!!

If we, the Church of Jesus cannot get this correct, it shows how dramatically we have failed Christ's standard of BY THIS, the world (meaning unbelievers) will know we are his disciples. Our need for a loving shepherd has never been greater.
Paul to Timothy wrote..."But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it"

To Wrangler he would also say...Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers

There is a knowledge which is firmly beleived in and is truth.
It is a learned knowledge...it can be reasoned out.
It can be taught and it can place you into a position of being saved...if you are wise you might be able to help save others also.

I'm not seeing wise in the above comments

F2F
 

face2face

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JW's write: https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g200702/who-is-satan-is-he-real/

Where did such an evil being come from? Long before man existed, (1) God created his “firstborn” Son, who eventually came to be known as Jesus. (Colossians 1:15) In time, other “sons of God,” called angels, (2) were created. (Job 38:4-7) All were perfect and righteous. However, one of those angels (3) would become Satan.

Seriously though...have you stopped to consider the Scriptural basis for these beliefs?

1. God created Jesus (yes agree!) but long before man existed? Colossians 1:15 is in the context of a Spiritual Creation not the physical order of things

2. We know not the origin of the Angels - nowhere is it written in the Word of God how the angels came to be. Best answer is to say we do not know...it's okay to do that!

3. Correct, Angels have divine nature; God's nature and as such cannot sin - they are His Eyes and are ministering spirits who always do His pleasure. (Psalm 103:20)

Also keep in mind its not just the JW's, most denominations have this type of erroneous statements with poor Scriptural support.

F2F
 

Wrangler

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You already lied and accused me of slander twice.
You are guilty of slander as it is you who took what I said out of context. But guess what? This thread is not about me or debating doctrine.

Please address the point of the OP.
 

Jack

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The Bible says that Jesus did not rise in a fleshly body.
I don't think JW's have a clue what's in the Bible. All they know is what Kingdom Hall lied to them!

Luke 24
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
 
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Aunty Jane

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You are guilty of slander as it is you who took what I said out of context. But guess what? This thread is not about me or debating doctrine.
LOL....they will either beat you over the head with their lying doctrines or they will emotionally blackmail you into continuing a useless conversation that you will never win because there will be no conceding to their views......what did Jesus say....? ”let them be, blind guides are what they are and if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit”.....it will be interesting to see who is still standing after that judgment of the “sheep and the goats” as both sound so similar, it’s hard to tell them apart unless you are familiar with both. Like “the wheat and the weeds”....unless you know what you are looking at, it’s hard to see the glaring differences. A counterfeit that has been in existence for centuries is passed off as the real thing, and it’s hard to discern the difference, unless you know what the original looked like.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Hi Jack....what is God’s word saying here?

John 10:30

30 I and the Father are one.”
Didn’t Jesus himself say about his disciples......
“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

Being “one” is a unity of spirit and purpose.....it is not an admission or proof of a trinitarian god. If it was, then the disciples are part of the trinity too....

You guys need to learn to read your Bibles in context, rather than just accepting what appears in a sentence taken out of context. If you know what your Bible teaches, you cannot be fooled into believing what God’s word does not teach.
 
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Wrangler

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Didn’t Jesus himself say about his disciples......
“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

Being “one” is a unity of spirit and purpose.....it is not an admission or proof of a trinitarian god. If it was, then the disciples are ...
If "one" makes a multi-person Being, then all believers are God by this verse. This is how it is with many of their rationalizations, such as God making us in "our" image implies a "plural" God. Neither are "support" for 3.

Again, how peculiar it is a thread dedicated to non-JW anti-Christ treatment of those whose doctrine they don't share is ignored; they just double down on their IDOLATRY, pretending this is just another thread to assert how being wrong on a point of doctrine justifies the vitriol, attracts non-believers or makes them worthy disciples.

It is most telling how they can never admit any validity to doctrine they don't share. They can never admit any verse could reasonably be taken to support an alternative conclusion. Amazing IDOLATRY.
 

Rita

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Please could you stick to discussing the topic. All of you know that discussing the trinity is against forum rules and yet you still bring it up.
 

Jack

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Please could you stick to discussing the topic. All of you know that discussing the trinity is against forum rules and yet you still bring it up.
Is defending Jesus as God against the rules? I can't seem to get a clear answer.
 
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Ritajanice

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Didn’t Jesus himself say about his disciples......
“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

Being “one” is a unity of spirit and purpose.....it is not an admission or proof of a trinitarian god. If it was, then the disciples are part of the trinity too....

You guys need to learn to read your Bibles in context, rather than just accepting what appears in a sentence taken out of context. If you know what your Bible teaches, you cannot be fooled into believing what God’s word does not teach.
Being one, means being one of the same Spirit.....and of course Jesus would be in unity with the Father .
We are reading the living word of God...God is NOT the Bible...that’s his Living word.

God is Spirit and you must be birthed in the Spirit to know him?

John 10: 30 ”The Father and I are one.”John 14:8-11“'Philip,' Jesus replied, 'after I have been with you all this time, you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.


Hope this is ok @Rita ...if it’s not, then I think I understand....as I’m not fully understanding to be honest...what I can post....I can assure you I did not deliberately post, my last post that you deleted.....
 
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Aunty Jane

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Being one, is being one in the Spirit....therefore Jesus was in unity with God, as God came in human form.his name was Jesus.
Yet there is not a single verse in the Bible that says so. Being united in spirit and purpose was imperative for Jesus to have fulfilled his role as Messiah. He came to do the will of his Father, not his own. When he asked his Father for “this cup to pass from me”, he said “yet not my will but your will be done”….can two parts of the same God have different wills in any given situation?
You also need to learn that God is a “ Living” Spirit...he’s not a book and one must be “ Born Again” ..which is a supernatural act that only God can do....
Being “born again” seems to be a term thrown around by many “Christians”….would you like to define what it means, and tell us what the purpose of being “born again”… is exactly? Does being “born again” make you a “saint”? What is the role of a saint? Please explain…..
God’s word is Alive and he can speak to his children as he chooses...
I agree, but God allows us all to believe whatever we wish…..even those who believe lies will be permitted to keep the delusions that they cherish. (2Thess 2:9-12)
It will all come out in the cleansing that is to come…..a judgment that will leave the “many” scrambling for excuses. (Matt 7:21-23) Christ’s true disciples have abandoned the counterfeit religions created by the devil. They are a hated minority, copping flack from a misinformed majority…..just as they were in the first century. (John 15:18-21)
 

L.A.M.B.

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Re:OP
1.My questions are:
What kind of witness do you suppose this is to outsiders who observe such vicious infighting?
2. Do you suppose Jesus would judge such relentless attacks as loving, as action becoming of his worthy disciples?
3.Is this why Jesus suffered and died on the cross; so there can be eternal acrimony over doctrine?
 

Ritajanice

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Yet there is not a single verse in the Bible that says so. Being united in spirit and purpose was imperative for Jesus to have fulfilled his role as Messiah. He came to do the will of his Father, not his own. When he asked his Father for “this cup to pass from me”, he said “yet not my will but your will be done”….can two parts of the same God have different wills in any given situation?
I can answer this, but it involves the trinity..therefore I have to leave it as talking about the trinity are against forum rules.
Being “born again” seems to be a term thrown around by many “Christians”….would you like to define what it means, and tell us what the purpose of being “born again”… is exactly? Does being “born again” make you a “saint”? What is the role of a saint? Please explain…..
A TERM!!!
Are you actually being serious...being thrown around!!!....if you don’t know what being “ Born Again “ means, I can’t help you on that one...there is also no point in going further with you....as you aren’t Born Again as you are saying....you wouldn’t have a clue what I would be talking about.

John 3:3​

King James Version​

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
I agree, but God allows us all to believe whatever we wish…..even those who believe lies will be permitted to keep the delusions that they cherish. (2Thess 2:9-12)
It will all come out in the cleansing that is to come…..a judgment that will leave the “many” scrambling for excuses. (Matt 7:21-23) Christ’s true disciples have abandoned the counterfeit religions created by the devil. They are a hated minority, copping flack from a misinformed majority…..just as they were in the first century. (John 15:18-21)
Again this makes absolutely. No sense to me..

You are still dead and in sin,and alienated from God if you aren’t Born Again...one doesn’t belong to him......anyway, I will leave you to your own beliefs...have a good day.
 
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Ritajanice

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I agree, but God allows us all to believe whatever we wish…..even those who believe lies will be permitted to keep the delusions that they cherish. (2Thess 2:9-12)
It will all come out in the cleansing that is to come…..a judgment that will leave the “many” scrambling for excuses. (Matt 7:21-23) Christ’s true disciples have abandoned the counterfeit religions created by the devil. They are a hated minority, copping flack from a misinformed majority…..just as they were in the first century. (John 15:18-21)
How can you believe whatever you wish...when we have been birthed in the Spirit?

That was the Living word of God testifying with our Spirit...???

And how can you believe whatever you wish...when we’ve had the word of God speak direct to our spirit?

Romans 8

King James Version

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

L.A.M.B.

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Re:OP
1.My questions are:
What kind of witness do you suppose this is to outsiders who observe such vicious infighting?
2. Do you suppose Jesus would judge such relentless attacks as loving, as action becoming of his worthy disciples?
3.Is this why Jesus suffered and died on the cross; so there can be eternal acrimony over doctrine?
Hmmm, in studying these questions, I see Jesus himself doing the fighting against the false doctrine of the Pharisees throughout his ministry.
Jesus called them vipers, asps, whited sepulchres, by judgement, yet his love would be offered to them as well at his death !
Jesus said this.....
John 17
17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. [19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through thy truth.

Paul went on to clarify the work of the word of God, truth!
2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Soooooo...........
 

Rita

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Is defending Jesus as God against the rules? I can't seem to get a clear answer.
It’s not about defending , it’s about accepting the rules as they stand at the moment. Stating that Jesus is God is part of what we believe about the trinity ( yes I believe that ) It leads to discussion for and against that……. Hence why I mentioned it earlier!
I will not be discussing this any further
 
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Aunty Jane

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Being “born again” seems to be a term thrown around by many “Christians”….would you like to define what it means, and tell us what the purpose of being “born again”… is exactly? Does being “born again” make you a “saint”? What is the role of a saint? Please explain…..
Ritajanice said:
A TERM!!!
Are you actually being serious...being thrown around!!!....if you don’t know what being “ Born Again “ means, I can’t help you on that one...there is also no point in going further with you....as you aren’t Born Again as you are saying....you wouldn’t have a clue what I would be talking about.

John 3:3​

King James Version​

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
This seems to be the standard answer from those who cannot tell me what it means to them to be “born again”….I asked you to tell me what the purpose of being “born again” is exactly….does that make you a “saint”? How is that too difficult to answer?

What is the role of a “saint”? What do you imagine yourself doing in the kingdom of God?….moreover….please tell me what the kingdom of God is to you….these are all “terms” used in the Bible so, as one who seems to know so much about being “born again” I was hoping that you might explain to those who don’t know what it means, so that you might impart some knowledge to them.

Jesus spoke about the kingdom of God and told his disciples to proclaim the “good news” about it. He said that they would be doing so until “the end” came. (Matt 24:14) What is it the end of?

There are many questions but not many answers ever seem to be forthcoming…..from those who claim to know.
 

Ritajanice

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This seems to be the standard answer from those who cannot tell me what it means to them to be “born again”….I asked you to tell me what the purpose of being “born again” is exactly….does that make you a “saint”? How is that too difficult to answer?

I’ve already explained to you what it means to be “Born Again “ you obviously aren’t understanding in the Spirit....only those Born Again understand what it means.
What is the role of a “saint”? What do you imagine yourself doing in the kingdom of God?….moreover….please tell me what the kingdom of God is to you….these are all “terms” used in the Bible so, as one who seems to know so much about being “born again” I was hoping that you might explain to those who don’t know what it means, so that you might impart some knowledge to them.

1 Corinthians 2
Berean Standard BiblePar ▾
Paul’s Message by the Spirit’s Power
1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.
Spiritual Wisdom
(Ephesians 1:15–23)
6Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God,a which He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9Rather, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no heart has imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love Him.”b
10But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.c
14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. 16“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?”d But we have the mind of Christ.
Online source.

The New Testament uses the word saint or saints 67 times. In every instance, the reference is to all believers (e.g., Acts 26:10; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2). Never is the word used of a special group of believers who serve God better than others. Scripture is clear that all Christians are saints

Jesus spoke about the kingdom of God and told his disciples to proclaim the “good news” about it. He said that they would be doing so until “the end” came. (Matt 24:14) What is it the end of?

There are many questions but not many answers ever seem to be forthcoming…..from those who claim to know.
I have answered all of your questions....whereas you have answered none of mine...you don’t even know what Born Again means....saying we throw it around, etc...you can only be in God’s Kingdom, when one is Born Again!....which you acknowledge yourself, that you haven’t a clue what it means...therefore you couldn’t possibly understand if anyone who is Born Again tries to explain it to you...like this verse of scripture...do you understand it?

John 3:8​


“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

Hebrews 4:12​

King James Version​

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


What is the word of God saying here ?

John 15:26​


“But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”??

?

Who testifies with our spirit that we are children of God?

Being Born Again is of the Holy Spirit.....you can’t read your way into becoming Born Again....that’s an act that only God in his mercy can perform and he does it through the Spirit.....it’s supernatural.....as God is Spirit and Alive.
 
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