Israel is Babylon the Great!

[Earburner]

Some other points:
First of all, at the time Revelation was written, about 95 AD, Jerusalem had been already destroyed in 70 AD. The powerful and great city at that time was Rome.

(^From post 139)
Yes, the book of Rev. was written in 95-96AD., 26 years after the siege and fall of Jerusalem, which is literally revealed by the words: "IS fallen".
Rev.14[8] And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen,  that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev.18[2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, [mystery,] Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Earthly Jerusalem is the fornicating daughter of Heavenly Jerusalem (Zion), which is the mother of us all, who are of faith in the Lord Jesus.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The problem is that you have refused to compare Scripture with Scripture. Have you compared Jeremiah chapter 31 with Hebrews chapters 8 and 9?

You refuse to understand whom God was prophesying to through Jeremiah! It is not a spiritual group, but the physical Israel! God made that clear when He said the New Covenant was not like the old which their fathers broke in the desert! No spiritualized group broke that old covenant.

he houses of Israel and Judah whom the Lord has a New Covenant with are actually spiritual Israel. Again the New Covenant with Israel "IS" with God's chosen people, the congregation of Israel, made up of both Jews and Gentiles. Look it up for yourself with Jeremiah 31 in conjunction with Hebrews 8-9. There is the Old Testament/Covenant, and there is the New Testament/ Covenant with Israel.

So show the verse where God definitively declares that the Israel of the old testament (the descendants of Abraham, I saac and Jacob) are not the Israel of the New Testament.

The bible has gone through great lengths to define Israel and you seem to cavalierly redefine it as many others who redefine words in Scripture.

But you cannot get past the problem of Romans 11 :

If we are to follow your logic and definition of what Israel is (the church) then Paul is saying the church has not obtained that which it sought for. that blindness has fallen in part on the body of christ. That the church are the natural branches etc.etc. Just substitute church for every place Israel is mentioned- if we are to accept your allegorization of Pauls Words inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The problem is that you have refused to compare Scripture with Scripture. Have you compared Jeremiah chapter 31 with Hebrews chapters 8 and 9?

Now who were the people that Jertemiah prophesied to and who was the book of Hebrews written to? I will give you a hint- the answer is found in the title of the letter.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, only Jacob who was renamed Israel.

YOu need to read your old testament then. for all the descendants through Isaac, through Abraham (thus excluding Ishmael and Esau) are Israel teh nation or ethnos.

Israel is the church, those who first followed Christ.

Show me that verse in the bible.

Nope.

Read Romans 9-11 and substitute Church for every time Israel appears and see how ludicrous your nope is.

Again, Israel was the first NT concept of the church...others have to join them not the other way around.

So if Israel is the church, who was Israel in the OT?

The church is of the faithful. Those natural branches of Israel who are faithless are removed and no longer are part of Israel.

So their genetics were changed then?

All the faithless have been cast off and that's been for centuries. The faithful of Israel remains and has been joined by gentiles. Israel is larger than ever before.

How have they remained if they were not saved until X years old. They had to enter the church the same way gentiles do.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Mat. 25:1-13 reveals the cause of division that is within all the visible denominational churches, as well as the differences between them.
[3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
[4] But the wise took oil IN their vessels WITH their lamps (Psalm 119:105).

John 3:3-8
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Mat. 25
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat. 7
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 8-9
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Your reference to Eph. 2 is to be understood corporately, as in the general sense, being that of the plan of God for our salvation, is revealed through faith in Christ.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of [our] works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For WE are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Edit:
Those "good works", which are of Christ Himself, is the fruit of the Spirit.
Gal. 5
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit [of them].

and you rpoint is? what are you trying to tell me?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus will have the last word. Not you, and not me.

And He already has. But you don't believe Him. You believe whatever you want to believe.

I do not post your statements about the teaching of God through the prophets. You do. I will not answer to God for your statements. You will.

You have become a little god judging who is puffed up and who is not. Your insults and your words and your false accusations are the only things Jesus will allow you to answer for in that day. He will not allow you to point a finger at another or decide who is 'puffed up' and who is not. You will only get away with that here, for now.

The same goes for me. I will not have to answer for your words, only for my own.

God has already had the last word on who is Israel and who is a citizen of Israel and who is not. The fact you don't believe Him is evident by your own words in your own posts.

Thus endeth this useless conversation. You are a liar and bearer of false witrness. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Earthly Jerusalem is the fornicating daughter of Heavenly Jerusalem (Zion), which is the mother of us all, who are of faith in the Lord Jesus.

Well, I never had sex with her. And heaven is not Zion. Zion is a mountain I'm Jerusalem where Jesus will return to and rule as King ON EARTH.

 

[Earburner]

and you rpoint is? what are you trying to tell me?

Not all who are visibly baptized by the waters of repentance, are mentally/spiritually committed to be baptized of God's Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is granted to us by His hand, and not that of a church's say so.
John 4
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

 

[Earburner]

Well, I never had sex with her. And heaven is not Zion. Zion is a mountain I'm Jerusalem where Jesus will return to and rule as King ON EARTH.

Earthly Jerusalem, who under the OC were once a chosen people unto God, committed fornication against God through her whoredoms with many nations, thus proving to be unfaithful to God, who was her husband.
But, as for all those who did have faith in the promise of the Messiah to come, they are now sealed by the Gift of God's Holy Spirit. Rev. 6:9-11. They are the 144,000.

As for after Pentecost, there is now no difference between Jew and Gentile, and therefore all of such are of the Great Multitude.
Heb. 12
[22] But ye [since Pentecost] are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the  heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect [by the shed blood of Christ],
[24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You refuse to understand whom God was prophesying to through Jeremiah! It is not a spiritual group, but the physical Israel! God made that clear when He said the New Covenant was not like the old which their fathers broke in the desert! No spiritualized group broke that old covenant.

I can only say that you lack understanding of who Israel and Judah In Jeremiah and Hebrews talked about. They are one and the same!
Okay, let look this way, this time with the "holy nation".

It is God who has assigned the nation of Israel to represent the Holy Spirit Body of Christ! That's the whole point of the nation and the "12" tribes from them, and the 12,000 from each tribe symbolizing the fullness of all the families or nations saved. That "IS" the point! For those who Interpret scripture "by scripture" the point is harmony, agreement, and consistency, that we are able to come to sound accurate justifiable interpretations. Yes, there is a point in God using the 12 tribes of Israel as a example, a type of the body of Christ. And the symbolism of twelve tribes is generally accepted by all to symbolize the "fullness" of Israel. I guess you are the exception to this rule. Let's see what God said about the Holy Nation in the Old and New Testament:

Exodus 19:5-6

• "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
• And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

1st Peter 2:9-10

• "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
• Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

Why does God name the 12 tribes? Why does God name Isreal? Why does God name Judah? TYPES, Ronald!!! That's why! "THIS" is Israel, this is the representation, and it's not just Jewish people or physical nation from Old Testament, but a great multitude from every tribe/family making up "THIS" Holy nation Israel from the both side of the Cross where the Living Water (Holy Spirit) came out of Jersualem. Spiritually speaking.

Likewise with the House of Israel and Judah the same way!

But unfortunately, people like you, who promote a vision of a nation like Israel in the sand of the Middle East totally missed the picture!

But you cannot get past the problem of Romans 11 :

You have not shown how Romans 11 has refuted my position. Try again.

If we are to follow your logic and definition of what Israel is (the church) then Paul is saying the church has not obtained that which it sought for. that blindness has fallen in part on the body of christ. That the church are the natural branches etc.etc. Just substitute church for every place Israel is mentioned- if we are to accept your allegorization of Pauls Words inspired by the Holy Spirit.

You still don't understand. It is not about the Church REPLACING Israel. It is about the INCLUSION of the Church INTO Israel, in the place of unfaithful! No, not into nation Israel, but CHRIST which the New Covenant is based on! Nothing to do with the nation Israel.

It is "inclusion Theology." Not Replacement Theology as you falsely alleged.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I can only say that you lack understanding of who Israel and Judah In Jeremiah and Hebrews talked about. They are one and the same!
Okay, let look this way, this time with the "holy nation".

It is God who has assigned the nation of Israel to represent the Holy Spirit Body of Christ! That's the whole point of the nation and the "12" tribes from them, and the 12,000 from each tribe symbolizing the fullness of all the families or nations saved. That "IS" the point! For those who Interpret scripture "by scripture" the point is harmony, agreement, and consistency, that we are able to come to sound accurate justifiable interpretations. Yes, there is a point in God using the 12 tribes of Israel as a example, a type of the body of Christ. And the symbolism of twelve tribes is generally accepted by all to symbolize the "fullness" of Israel. I guess you are the exception to this rule. Let's see what God said about the Holy Nation in the Old and New Testament:

Exodus 19:5-6

• "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
• And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

1st Peter 2:9-10

• "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
• Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

Why does God name the 12 tribes? Why does God name Isreal? Why does God name Judah? TYPES, Ronald!!! That's why! "THIS" is Israel, this is the representation, and it's not just Jewish people or physical nation from Old Testament, but a great multitude from every tribe/family making up "THIS" Holy nation Israel from the both side of the Cross where the Living Water (Holy Spirit) came out of Jersualem. Spiritually speaking.

Likewise with the House of Israel and Judah the same way!

But unfortunately, people like you, who promote a vision of a nation like Israel in the sand of the Middle East totally missed the picture!




You have not shown how Romans 11 has refuted my position. Try again.



You still don't understand. It is not about the Church REPLACING Israel. It is about the INCLUSION of the Church INTO Israel, in the place of unfaithful! No, not into nation Israel, but CHRIST which the New Covenant is based on! Nothing to do with the nation Israel.

It is "inclusion Theology." Not Replacement Theology as you falsely alleged.

The church has not been included into Israel. Israel is not the vine, but the natural branches.

The root is Jesus, the vine is the place of blessing. Israel is the natural branches and we gentiles are the wild branches. the church was prophesied as a kind of parenthesis in gods dealing with Israel.

It clearly teaches that Israel would be scattered across the earth, regathered to her land in the last days to pass under the rod of Gods judgment, purge out the unbeliever and receive Jesus as her Messiah!

We are partakers of the blessings God gives to Israel, not taker overs or become part of Israel. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that.

You have not shown how Romans 11 has refuted my position. Try again.

Well if you cannot see the clear, plain teaching of Gods Word in romans 11, there is nothing I can do for you. The whole chapter is the fqact that God has not abandoned the nation of Israel.

Paul makes it clear that once the full number of Gentiles are brought into teh body of Christ- ALL of Israel will then get saved in accord with Isaiah and Zechariah.

B ut let me post this chapter for you and you tell me why it does not refer to the ethnic people we call the Jews!

Romans 11

King James Version

​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I can only say that you lack understanding of who Israel and Judah In Jeremiah and Hebrews talked about. They are one and the same!
Okay, let look this way, this time with the "holy nation".

Well not having your secret Bosco decoder ring, I will take God at HIs Word when He inspired Jeremiah to prophesy. It is the 10 tribes that make up Israel and the two tribes that make up Judah altogether they form the ethnic nation Israel!

Why does God name the 12 tribes? Why does God name Isreal? Why does God name Judah? TYPES, Ronald!!! That's why! "THIS" is Israel, this is the representation, and it's not just Jewish people or physical nation from Old Testament, but a great multitude from every tribe/family making up "THIS" Holy nation Israel from the both side of the Cross where the Living Water (Holy Spirit) came out of Jersualem. Spiritually speaking.

Likewise with the House of Israel and Judah the same way!

But unfortunately, people like you, who promote a vision of a nation like Israel in the sand of the Middle East totally missed the picture!

Let me ask youa question. why should I take your allegorical reinterpretation of the Scriptures (you call them types) over the dozens of others who have come up with all sorts of types that would disagree with you rtype.

Why should I choose your opinion over the swimple plain word of Jeremiah when He prophesied to the 12 tribes of ethnic Israel?

Why should I reject all the prophesies that declared Israel would fall into unbeloief (exce-pt a remnant), be scattered, be regathered , pass under Gods judgment, the unbelievers purged, and all the nation gets saved for your typological reinterpretation?

What authority do you present to take the clear meaning of these words and reinterpret them to mean something other than written?

 

[covenantee]

It is "inclusion Theology." Not Replacement Theology as you falsely alleged.

He's had me on "ignore" for a long time, but if you wouldn't mind, ask him what "replacement theology" is, given that the Church does not ethnically/genetically replace Israel. Appreciated.

He's completely immersed in the racist "replacement biology" which is the foundation of dispensationalism.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The church has not been included into Israel. Israel is not the vine, but the natural branches.

The root is Jesus, the vine is the place of blessing. Israel is the natural branches and we gentiles are the wild branches.

Do you actually read the Scripture instead of making speculations?
Joh 15:1-5
(1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
(2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
(3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
(4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
(5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Israel, as a nation, is not Vine unless Christ "IS" Israel! Selah! The branches are all people who profess to be followers and believers in Christ. Some with fruits. Some without fruits.

the church was prophesied as a kind of parenthesis in gods dealing with Israel.

The parenthesis is man-made speculation. Unless you can show us the Scripture that actually says this. That would be your homework.

It clearly teaches that Israel would be scattered across the earth, regathered to her land in the last days to pass under the rod of Gods judgment, purge out the unbeliever and receive Jesus as her Messiah!

Oh "it clearly teaches?" Show us the Scripture first to see if you know what you are talking about!

We are partakers of the blessings God gives to Israel, not taker overs or become part of Israel. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that.

Me neither!

Well if you cannot see the clear, plain teaching of Gods Word in romans 11, there is nothing I can do for you. The whole chapter is the fqact that God has not abandoned the nation of Israel.

Nope. You are being brainwashed that the "whole chapter" is all about the nation Israel that God would never abandon her. You got the WRONG ISRAEL, dude!

Read the Romans 11 study below! It is a verse-by-verse commentary! If you don't agree with any of it, then explain it yourself with Scripture rather than speculations!

Well not having your secret Bosco decoder ring,

My "bosco decoder ring" is the Holy Spirit, my teacher of the Scripture.

I will take God at HIs Word when He inspired Jeremiah to prophesy.

You may read the verse but you do not understand it.

It is the 10 tribes that make up Israel and the two tribes that make up Judah altogether they form the ethnic nation Israel!

Speculation. Like I said, you need to learn to compare Scripture with Scripture. Not making a doctrine if nation Israel in Jeremiah alone.

Let me ask youa question. why should I take your allegorical reinterpretation of the Scriptures (you call them types) over the dozens of others who have come up with all sorts of types that would disagree with you rtype.

Not my interpretation. Its God's interpreation that I testified with Scripture. You just hate anything spiritually, allegorical, etc. That is why you lack spiritual discernment.

Why should I choose your opinion over the swimple plain word of Jeremiah when He prophesied to the 12 tribes of ethnic Israel?

What do you think? Don't you realize that you must always take ANY man's opinion (including mine) and compare it with Scripture to see if it's so? I doubt you do.

What authority do you present to take the clear meaning of these words and reinterpret them to mean something other than written?

It is NOT my interpreation. It is God's. It is his spiritual interpreation that is IN the Bible that you need to search it out. But you came with pre convinced mind that God is all about saving a nation called "Israel" in the Middle East... after the church age. By the way, tell us, what is your understanding of replacement theology?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I will put this forward, Israel is regards to Nathaniel ?
Jesus said of Nathaniel that he was a true Israelite, every Christian should know all about Nathaniel or you are not worthy of what Israel truly means, Jesus pointed such out in fact regarding Nathaniel ! Now what would Nathaniel see ? Don't you see that ?

Nowadays Israel is true Christianity, for we are worthy of Israel, the Servants of God ! but for the whore ? they are lost.
The Jews ? are they Israel ? No ! they are the Lost !
When we look at the Jews and Israel both fell away from God but for a percentage ? and we see that when Jesus came, some did have faith in him, but they did not know him ? for that only came after he went to Heaven in fact and it was them who understood such who became born again and the First Christians in fact.

Now as to the history of Israel and the Jews ? They always failed when they turned their backs on God but became healthy when they were with God ?
The we see Christianity is the same ? and now we see Christianity has failed regarding the same pox that afflicted the Jews, because Christians are being lead astray in fact by the workings of Satan in fact and it's out Governments that are Anti-Christ in fact, if one does not understand that fact you are not worthy of Christ Jesus in fact ! You must be truly born again to understand that this world is 'full' of deceptions and delusions.

Now i did not know that this world was Full of delusions and deceptions until i was born again ! i knew there was such but not Full of such !
I had to come out from them !!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you actually read the Scripture instead of making speculations?
Joh 15:1-5
(1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
(2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
(3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
(4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
(5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Israel, as a nation, is not Vine unless Christ "IS" Israel! Selah! The branches are all people who profess to be followers and believers in Christ. Some with fruits. Some without fruits.

If you knew what that verse meant, you would have not written the way you did. Those branches that bear no fruit are not removed, but lifted up! Grapes in Jesus' day did not grow on arbors, but along the ground. some branches got clogged with dirt and thus did not produce fruit, so the grower would lift eh branch off the ground. clean the pores so it would produce fruit. The word translated "taketh away" is actually airo which means to lift! We get our prefix
aero" from it which has to do with lift as in aerodynamics.

The parenthesis is man-made speculation. Unless you can show us the Scripture that actually says this. That would be your homework.

Romans 10:19
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:25-27

King James Version


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Acts 15:14-16

King James Version

​

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Hosea 1:9-11

King James Version

​

9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

My "bosco decoder ring" is the Holy Spirit, my teacher of the Scripture.

If only.

You may read the verse but you do not understand it.

Well I understand it as it is written. If there is a mystical translation as you are saying, once again I do not read between the lines like the JW's, Mormons and some believers do.

Oh "it clearly teaches?" Show us the Scripture first to see if you know what you are talking about!

When you ask like a believer I will.

What do you think? Don't you realize that you must always take ANY man's opinion (including mine) and compare it with Scripture to see if it's so? I doubt you do.

Well your opinions are not the infallible source I trust. I do compare what you say and compare it with what is written and what you say does not match with what is written. You hold an alleogircal reinterpretation of what is written.

It is NOT my interpreation. It is God's. It is his spiritual interpreation that is IN the Bible that you need to search it out. But you came with pre convinced mind that God is all about saving a nation called "Israel" in the Middle East... after the church age. By the way, tell us, what is your understanding of replacement theology?

AAHH! The old spiritual intepretation argument. So according to you we have to look past what is written (For God did not literally mean what was written ) and see the spiritual meaning of it. Okay once again why should we take your spiritual interpretation as what God meant to say instead of the dozens of others in the past? Why is yours right and all other "spiritual inteprreters" who claim it is Gods interpretation is wqrong? Why shopuld we not simply take what God said at its face value?

Did Jesus really rise from teh dead physically or do we need to see past the words on the page and see some spiritual meaning according to your line of thinking? If not why take that as literal and these as not?​

​

 

[TribulationSigns]

If you knew what that verse meant

I do.

, you would have not written the way you did.

Why should I? Since you already denied that the vine itself is Jesus Christ as the verses clearly show.

Those branches that bear no fruit are not removed, but lifted up!

Show me the scripture that says it exactly or you made it up?

Grapes in Jesus' day did not grow on arbors, but along the ground. some branches got clogged with dirt and thus did not produce fruit, so the grower would lift eh branch off the ground. clean the pores so it would produce fruit. The word translated "taketh away" is actually airo which means to lift! We get our prefix
aero" from it which has to do with lift as in aerodynamics.

Show me the Scrpture that says it exactly. Christ explained clearly that the branches that don't produce fruit are TAKEN AWAY (not lift up, , cleaned the roots, replanted, etc. that you SPECULATED.) The branched that has fruits are PURGED for more growth.

Romans 11:25-27

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​

Please note, "and so" in verse 26, not "and then". Big difference. Bet you did not read the article on Romans 11 above.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Show me the scripture that says it exactly or you made it up?

John 15

King James Version

​

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

airō (Key)
Pronunciation
ah'-ee-ro

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
A primary root
Greek Inflections of αἴρω [?]
mGNT
101x in 34 unique form(s) TR
102x in 36 unique form(s) LXX
241x in 53 unique form(s)


Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 1:185,28
KJV Translation Count — Total: 102x
The KJV translates Strong's G142 in the following manner: take up (32x), take away (25x), take (25x), away with (5x), lift up (4x), bear (3x), miscellaneous (8x).

1. to raise up, elevate, lift up
   1. to raise from the ground, take up: stones
   2. to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
   3. to draw up: a fish
2. to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3. to bear away what has been raised, carry off
   1. to move from its place
   2. to take off or away what is attached to anything
   3. to remove
   4. to carry off, carry away with one
   5. to appropriate what is taken
   6. to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
   7. to take and apply to any use
   8. to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
   9. cause to cease

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
αἴρω aírō, ah'-ee-ro; a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare H5375) to expiate sin:—away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

Now google how grapes were grown in Jesus day and find out the vines were grown on the ground and if a vine did not bear fruit, it was lifted up.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not all who are visibly baptized by the waters of repentance, are mentally/spiritually committed to be baptized of God's Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is granted to us by His hand, and not that of a church's say so.
John 4
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

This is a lie.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Show me the Scrpture that says it exactly. Christ explained clearly that the branches that don't produce fruit are TAKEN AWAY (not lift up, , cleaned the roots, replanted, etc. that you SPECULATED.) The branched that has fruits are PURGED for more growth.

see above.

 

[Earburner]

Do you actually read the Scripture instead of making speculations?
Joh 15:1-5
(1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
(2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
(3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
(4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
(5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Israel, as a nation, is not Vine unless Christ "IS" Israel! Selah! The branches are all people who profess to be followers and believers in Christ. Some with fruits. Some without fruits.

You are correct. Jesus Himself is the root of the "good tree", not Israel.
Israel without Christ cannot produce the fruit of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22-23; Eph. 5:9.

When they EACH do come to God through faith in Jesus, they are THEN grafted back to God, by being born again of God's Holy Spirit, through their faith in THEIR own Messiah, Jesus. Rom. 10:12.