The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Zao is life]

Oh i am sure when you see "Israel" you immediately see "gentiles" and "church"
Got it

Better than your seeing only "the ethnic Jews" when you see "Israel" - because your understanding of the name Israel is false and based on ignorance of the highest order - both of the Bible and of the history of Israel.

 

[The Light]

The DNA of a Jew before he receives Christ, and his DNA after he receives Christ and is added to the Church; is unchanged.

His DNA is not replaced by the Church.

Your claim is an absurd fallacy.

And your belief that God needs DNA to identify a Jew is laughable.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What do the words "the tribulation" refer to in the New Testament? I listed all the verses for you in the entire New Testament.

Crack open your Bible now and go do some studying of it so you can give an accurate answer.

I am not the one mocking and bringing rabbit trails.
I call you guys out with verses
It is kinda unique that you are doing a little copy paste of the bible.
Yes always crak that bible open.
You are getting it.

And yes we can all see tribulation
Great tribulation
A period of tribulation
Tribulation of God
Tribulation of the devil.
We all undergo tribulation
Jesus said great tribulation
Yes we all see it
Thank you

 

[The Light]

Actually what I find written is that there is a first resurrection of the spiritually dead to spiritual life in this age. Then when this age comes to an end when the last trumpet sounds there will be both a physical resurrection of ALL who are dead, and the saints alive at that time will be caught up immortal & incorruptible to meet the Lord in the air.

So there is one one resurrection and it happens at the last trumpet?

How is it that MANY and not ALL that sleep in the ground are raised in Daniel 12?

 

[Zao is life]

Oh i am sure when you see "Israel" you immediately see "gentiles" and "church"
Got it

Better than seeing only "the ethnic Jews" when you see "Israel" because your understanding of the name Israel is false and based on ignorance of the highest order - both of the Bible and of the history of Israel.

I am not the one mocking and bringing rabbit trails.
I call you guys out with verses
It is kinda unique that you are doing a little copy paste of the bible.
Yes always crak that bible open.
You are getting it.

And yes we can all see tribulation
Great tribulation
A period of tribulation
Tribulation of God
Tribulation of the devil.
We all undergo tribulation
Jesus said great tribulation
Yes we all see it
Thank you

So why do you refer to "the tribulation" as something the world experiences after the saints have escaped from it?

Who are the elect for whose sake Jesus says the days of the great tribulation will be shortened? Who are the elect Jesus says He will send His angels to gather immediately after the tribulation of those days?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Who can actually say honestly they are NOT the Church as She existed of Old before Christ came to earth a man? The Bible says those of Old of faith are the Church, and these 144,000 sealed by the Spirit and ascending to heaven with the Lord, you say are not the Church of Old???

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

It is written symbolically 144,000 to represent the remnant of those of faith of Old!

The 144k are real live humans walking the earth during the trib.

That is their number.
You omit the first fruit dynamic every time.
Leaving out components would be the lowest ground for investigation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Better than seeing only "the ethnic Jews" when you see "Israel" because your understanding of the name Israel is false and based on ignorance of the highest order - both of the Bible and of the history of Israel.

So why do you refer to "the tribulation" as something the world experiences after the saints have escaped from it?

Who are the elect for whose sake Jesus says the days of the great tribulation will be shortened? Who are the elect Jesus says He will send His angels to gather immediately after the tribulation of those days?

Where exactly is your dilemma?
I see none

 

[rebuilder 454]

The more you talk about people's ethnicity the more you are exposing the fact that your mind is set on the things of the flesh, not on the things of the Spirit.

What do YOU call a Hebrew or israelite.
Jesus differentiated.
All i can think of is you are trying to void out them as a race.
Nothing else makes sense.
I suspect you are replacement theory adherent

 

[rebuilder 454]

We don't explain it away. You do.

I already gave you all the verses in the New Testament mentioning the persecution and the tribulation (of the saints), so let's look at what the Bible in general says about the wrath of God and the judgment of God, because the faithful saints who believe in Jesus are promised this:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
"For God has not appointed us to wrath (ὀργή orgḗ), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 5:8-10
"But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) through Him.
For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger, but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

THE 'PRE-TRIBULATION' MISNOMER

Referring to the judgement | wrath of God that is prophesied to come upon unbelievers | the enemies of Christ (which is produced by His wrath) as "the tribulation", or as "the great tribulation" is a complete and utter misnomer. God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once. The tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt,

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues (a.k.a bowls of wrath) will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

REVELATION 14

Revelation 14 is a chapter talking about the harvest, so we see the Lamb standing on Mount Zion - which in the Revelation is called the holy city, New Jerusalem three times directly (Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.) + once without saying directly it's talking about New Jerusalem (Rev.11:2 is talking about the holy city - but Rev.11:8 is talking about the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where the Lord was crucified"). Which one is the holy city?

The the other cities in the Revelation (the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where the Lord was crucified, Babylon the Great, and the cities of the nations that fell when the 7th bowl is poured out), are never called "the holy city" or "Mount Zion" in the Revelation.

Mount Zion in the Revelation is always a reference to the holy city, New Jerusalem, populated by believers in Jesus. It's not a physical city. We, the saints, are Mount Zion:

But you have come to Mount Zion
and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the first-born
who are written in Heaven,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Hebrews 12:22-24).

In Revelation 14 the words "Mount Zion", "redeemed" (by the blood of Christ), "firsfruits" (to God, before the harvest), following the Lamb wherever He goes (taking up their cross and following Him) and having no guile (no deceptiveness in them) in Rev.14:1-4 are all very significant. It's talking about those who were redeemed and came out from the great tribulation mentioned in verses 12-16 of the same chapter.

They are also mentioned in Rev.7:9-17, the great multitude from all nations, tribes and tongues before the throne of God - which identifies who the 120,000 from each tribe of Israel represent: Benjamin being represented by Judah | the Jews (the two Southern tribes); and the Gentile redeemed being represented by the "ten lost tribes" of the Northern kingdom who disappeared from plain sight after 725 B.C, when they were scattered among the nations and whose descendants intermarried with Gentiles until the time came for the fullness of the Gentiles to be brought in through faith in Christ - which is what Israel (Jacob) on his deathbed told Joseph was going to happen through the seed of Ephraim.

Ephraim eventually became the dominant tribe of the ten Northern tribes, who are collectively called "Ephraim" in Isaiah and in other prophecies also. The Gentiles who believe in Jesus are represented by "Ephraim" in the Revelation, a.k.a the house of Israel. Ephraim is not mentioned by name in Revelation 7, though his brother Manasseh is named in place of Dan. Paul included Gentile believers in the fulfillment of the prophecy regarding Ephraim being brought back in (Rom.9:24-26; Hosea 1:9-11). They are the house of Israel in the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Jer.31:31.

The Jews have only one patrairch named in those tribes - Judah. The tribe of Benjamin and Judah were the two tribes of the Southern kingdom, and Benjamin's descendants eventually became amalgamated with Judah (the Jews).

The rest of the chapter of Revelation 14, after the mention of the 144,00 mentioned first in chapter 7, is telling us why they are now in heaven before the throne of God, because it's talking about the last days, the tribulation they (we) will go through (Rev.14:12-14), and the harvest.

The above is simply knowing what scripture teaches about the house of Israel (the 10 tribes of the house of Israel which represent all Gentiles a.k.a "the seed of Ephraim" who are among the redeemed, + the 2 tribes of the house of Judah). It's not explaining anything away.

We do not explain things away after ensuring scripture conforms to false doctrine - pre-tribbers do that. Evidence of this lies in the fact that you still have not answered my challenge where I challenge you to give me any verse or passage in the New Testament where the word tribulation or affliction is talking about what unbelievers will endure when God's judgment | wrath comes upon the world, aside from the two I mentioned.

The truth is you cannot provide more. There are no others. And the only three describing the tribulation as great tribulation are talking about what the elect will endure - i.e the multitude redeemed from their own tribulation at the hands of the beast and his armies.​

Oh..ok
..yes.
You doctrine has a problem with yhe phrase. "Pretrib"

Too bad for that sir.
You did all those posts to say that you have a problem with a phrase.
Got it.

 

[covenantee]

And your belief that God needs DNA to identify a Jew is laughable.

Your belief, not mine.

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So tell us what your "replacement theology" claims is replaced.

Don't be afraid.

 

[covenantee]

The delusion of a word being a bogeyman is the foundation and banner of your rabbit trails.
Your entire doctrine is a string of one liners.
Reframed meanings.

Are you a closet papist?

Just leave what you can't understand for those who can.

 

[covenantee]

What do YOU call a Hebrew or israelite.
Jesus differentiated.
All i can think of is you are trying to void out them as a race.
Nothing else makes sense.
I suspect you are replacement theory adherent

So tell us what your "replacement theory" claims is replaced.

Don't be afraid.

 

[rwb]

AHEM, Who woudda thought "Israel" referred to Ethnic Jews???
....but you need it to do just that huh?

If you would simply take the time to include "the fullness of the Gentiles" you would realize that Paul is not speaking of ethnic Jews when he writes "all Israel shall be saved"! How could this be ethnic Jews when all Israel that shall be saved are Jews of faiths and Gentiles of faith TOGETHER. A spiritual people not ethnic Jews as you imagine.

Israel of faith even from Old always included Gentiles. Because to belong to Israel of Old one must be converted to Judaism, and come under the Law. So even the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel, though overwhelmingly ethnic Jews, Gentile converts would also be included among the elect remnant saved according to grace through faith.

 

[rwb]

Better than your seeing only "the ethnic Jews" when you see "Israel" - because your understanding of the name Israel is false and based on ignorance of the highest order - both of the Bible and of the history of Israel.

Exactly! All those not born a Jew had to do was to convert to Judaism, or a woman could marry into Israel to be Israel. Not an ethnic people, but whosoever is of faith belongs to "all Israel that shall be saved."

 

[rwb]

So there is one one resurrection and it happens at the last trumpet?

How is it that MANY and not ALL that sleep in the ground are raised in Daniel 12?

All who are found written in the book, just as Dan 12:1 tells us, shall be delivered from physical death to immortal and incorruptible physical life in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, and ALL who are in the graves shall be resurrected either to life or damnation. That's why Daniel clearly writes only of "many" who have died shall awake to everlasting life, and some to shame and contempt.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel also shows us how the many are to be delivered throughout this age of the Gospel, called "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time." We should understand Daniel is writing of "great tribulation" that Christ tells us shall come upon His people in this Gospel age. And how can we be certain this is what Daniel is speaking of? He tells us those who shall be delivered, the many who shall awake to everlasting life are "the wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. The many turned to righteousness is through the Gospel preached in the power of the Holy Spirit and whosoever hears and believes have been made righteous through Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

Oh..ok
..yes.
You doctrine has a problem with yhe phrase. "Pretrib"

Too bad for that sir.
You did all those posts to say that you have a problem with a phrase.
Got it.

Since it's the Bible that talks about "the tribulation" we go according to who's tribulation is being referred to by the words "the tribulation" in the Bible, and according to when the Bible times the rapture in respect of "the tribulation".

You've just made it totally obvious yet again that you couldn't care less what the Bible says about it. The phrase "pre-trib" is all important to you - but what the Bible says about it is either of no importance to you, or at the very best, of far less importance to you than the phrase "pre-trib".

Your own words above betray your attitude toward scripture.

How you can still tell others to 'crack open that Bible' beggars belief.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus is talking to His disciples - whether those who were in His presence then, or those who are in His presence now (He is always present in Spirit).

So who are the elect Jesus is talking about for whose sake the days of the great tribulation will be shortened? Who are the elect Jesus said He will send out His angels to gather immediately after the tribulation of those days?

In your opinion?

The elect are all those on earth still in the Lamb's book of life, after the Second Coming. Standing in judgment many are removed at that point, thus no longer elect. The goats are removed from the Lamb's book of life and tossed into the LOF. That is while still physically alive. Remember that Jesus as God, can cast both body and soul into the fire.

 

[Zao is life]

What do YOU call a Hebrew or israelite.
Jesus differentiated.
All i can think of is you are trying to void out them as a race.
Nothing else makes sense.
I suspect you are replacement theory adherent

Only Judah gives his name to "the Jews", a.k.a the tribe of Judah = 1/12th of Israel.

Israel = 12 out of 12 tribes. Not one out of 12.

The descendants of Benjamin eventually became amalgamated with the Jews, so that's 2/12ths of Israel.

Your dispensing of 10/12ths of Israel only works in your Darby-inspired extra-biblical literature.

This is what God said about 10/12ths of Israel:

"For you are not My people, and I will not be for you. Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God."

Guess what? The above is talking about the fullness of the Gentiles, as Israel prophesied to Joseph when Israel was on his deathbed.

Israel = Jews and Gentiles in Christ, regardless of the fact that your Replacement Theology/Replacement Theory replaces Israel with unbelievers who happen to be Jews (but not with unbelievers who happen to be Gentiles).

Your theology is totally confused and you don't see it because what is written is unimportant to you, as is the history of Israel and God's first promise to Abraham, which God repeated 3 times - that Abraham would become the father of a multitude of goy nations. How?

The above promise came through Abraham's seed, Israel, and in His seed (Christ) all the nations of the earth are blessed.

Crack open a Bible and begin to read it and study it because there are major cracks in your Replacement Theory/Replacement Theology.​

 

[Zao is life]

The elect are all those on earth still in the Lamb's book of life, after the Second Coming. Standing in judgment many are removed at that point, thus no longer elect. The goats are removed from the Lamb's book of life and tossed into the LOF. That is while still physically alive. Remember that Jesus as God, can cast both body and soul into the fire.

40 Therefore as the darnel are gathered and burned in the fire, so it shall be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity,
42 and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous shall shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

So why is Jesus going to send His angels to gather His elect if they're still on earth after the goats have been gathered and cast into the lake of fire?

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Whose resurrection and rapture is Paul speaking about then?

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

 

[rwb]

The 144k are real live humans walking the earth during the trib.

That is their number.
You omit the first fruit dynamic every time.
Leaving out components would be the lowest ground for investigation.

Prove what you allege! What verses of Scripture prove 144,000 are on earth during the tribulation that is like none other and shall never be again? How do you interpret Rev 7 with the four angels that hold back the winds from blowing on the four corners of the earth? That so the WIND should not blow until the 144,000 are sealed? IOW the WIND, symbolizing the Holy Spirit would not be sent universally (four corners of earth) upon those who shall be saved. Scripture tells us the Spirit was WITH chosen men of Old, but He would not be IN men of faith until after the 144,000 of all the Old Covenant tribes of the children of Israel had been spiritually saved. That happened after the resurrection of Christ, and these Old Covenant faithful saints ascended with Christ to heaven. What do you think sealing the servants of God in their foreheads mean?

Revelation 7:1 (KJV) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2-3 (KJV) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

No damage foretold to come during this time when there would be "great tribulation" such as never before and shall never be again would be permitted until the Spirit is universally sent to be IN faithful saints; i.e. the Church. Since the Old Covenant faithful saints lived and died before the Spirit was universally poured out, they too had to be sealed or quickened through the Spirit to ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers. The sealing of these faithful saints and their ascension to heaven with Christ is shown in the book of Ephesians where Paul writes:

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

These Old Covenant faithful 144,000 remnant from all the tribes of the children of Israel could not ascend to heaven spiritually alive before Christ gave His life to ransom them, and defeat death.