Being filled vs being baptized with the Spirit

[marks]

I understand what you are saying but I don't think Jesus would tell some one that you first must be born of a woman for that is so weird to tell someone you are talking to that they have to come through child birth they already have done that so no need to say such a thing but remember this is when Jesus is teaching water baptism for remission of sine and the Jews are rejecting it. Nicodemus has surely heard and quite possibly rejected it himself. The and Spirit part is not fully disclosed yet to the earth for Jesus time has not yet come so Jesus can only hint about it until the time has come.

It doesn't seem weird to me, but then that's a good example for discussion of Bible interpretation. It seems one way to you, and it seems a different way to me, so we just need to know what God says.

Nicodemus was questioning how to be "born again", and how can he enter his mother's womb to be reborn? Jesus answers, there are two different kinds of birth, water, and Spirit. And He goes on to say, what is born of flesh is flesh, what is born of spirit is spirit.

John 3:3-6 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I see a correspondence between born of water and born of flesh.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The one baptism could it possibly that of the one that bears the Saviors name? Could it not possibly that of Acts 2:38 ? Could act 2:38 and Romans 6:3 be the one and the same?

That seems to be the question here, doesn't it?

Cornelius shows that water baptism isn't required to receive the Holy Spirit. Would Cornelius have been baptized in the Spirit without water? Since water baptism came later?

Much love!

PS . . . I'll be offline after 5 pm . . . I don't want you to think I'm just disappearing. I should be back on for a while tomorrow afternoon/evening, Lord willing.

 

[Godslittleservant]

What I see Paul preaching is this:

1 Corinthians 1:14-18 KJV
14) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15) Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16) And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Power to save is not said to be in baptism, Paul says it's in the preaching of the cross.

He is discussing division in the body, and talks about the identification with the one baptizing, so we're on the same page there. But then he adds this part that Jesus didn't send him actually to baptize, but to preach the cross, because that's were the power to save is.

Romans 10:8-15 KJV
8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

This passage tells us the same thing, that preaching is what is important. The preacher preaches, the hearer believes, confesses, is saved. Yes?

Much love!

You said "Power to save is not said to be in baptism, Paul says it's in the preaching of the cross." Yes I agree with what you are saying but could not the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ be part of the cross in accordance to what Paul said in verse 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? When we answer these questions we see that the baptism in Christ name is tied to the teaching of the cross and then He goes into detail of this in his letter to the Romans in chapter 6

So with that does it not look like he did teach baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38 and Romans 6:3ff and Acts 19:1-5 and many more.

you said "This passage tells us the same thing, that preaching is what is important. The preacher preaches, the hearer believes, confesses, is saved. Yes?"
Yes that is exactly what happened in Acts 2 is it not correct Peter preached they heard believed confess and repented and was baptized

note that not every verse that deals with salvation has it all in one verse as you demonstrated here we do not see repents in your verses but we know it is required so we take all the scriptures that deal with this subject and put them all together to get the complete teaching of the subject.

Just a thought hope you see what I am saying not good at expressing my view.

 

[Godslittleservant]

Something to mention . . . we were not actually told to be baptized in Acts 2:38.

Acts 2:36-39 KJV
36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Peter addressed this to the "house of Israel". The question then is, does it also apply to us, now?



Why did John baptize?

Malachi 3:1 KJV
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Malachi 4:5-6 KJV
5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Isaiah 40:3 KJV
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Matthew 11:10-14 KJV
10) For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11) Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12) And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14) And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

John was preparing the people for Jesus to come.

Matthew 21:24-26 KJV
24) And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25) The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
26) But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

Do you know the Jewish history of baptism?

Much love!

I agree somewhat with what you are saying but it was more like the kingdom to come Jesus came and preached the same thing right along beside him.


Do you know the Jewish history of baptism? Not in full but I see that his that John and Jesus is come teaching is completely new to the Jews they rejected it did not want no part it was contrary to their teaching they thought both John and Jesus was teaching strange doctrine.

 

[marks]

You said "Power to save is not said to be in baptism, Paul says it's in the preaching of the cross." Yes I agree with what you are saying but could not the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ be part of the cross in accordance to what Paul said in verse 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? When we answer these questions we see that the baptism in Christ name is tied to the teaching of the cross and then He goes into detail of this in his letter to the Romans in chapter 6

I'm going to simmer on this one before replying. It's a very good question, and deserves a very good answer.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I agree somewhat with what you are saying but it was more like the kingdom to come Jesus came and preached the same thing right along beside him.


Do you know the Jewish history of baptism? Not in full but I see that his that John and Jesus is come teaching is completely new to the Jews they rejected it did not want no part it was contrary to their teaching they thought both John and Jesus was teaching strange doctrine.

Baptism was a common practice among the Jews for both ritual cleansing and proselytizing. The strange thing to the Pharisees is why would they have to be baptized? Not only are they already Jews, but they were Pharisees of all things. Paul wrote referring to his own righteousness, that he was a Pharisee. Them and righteousness were supposed to be hand in hand.

"So what do you mean I have to be baptized as if I'm a gentile sinner!!!"

Much love!

 

[marks]

Acts 19:1-5 and many more.

Acts 19:1-7 KJV
1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7) And all the men were about twelve.

This passage tells me that John's baptism was solely for those before the cross. I don't think it can be considered as having any application otherwise.

note that not every verse that deals with salvation has it all in one verse as you demonstrated here we do not see repents in your verses but we know it is required so we take all the scriptures that deal with this subject and put them all together to get the complete teaching of the subject.

Yes, this is true, I think!

So then with that in mind I think we need to look at inclusive and exclusive passages, one's that not only give us a formula for salvation, but ones that define one way and the other what is necessary.

Just a thought hope you see what I am saying not good at expressing my view.

I think you're doing fine, I think this is turning into an interesting discussion.

So . . . what are your thoughts about faith and works? Paul wrote a lot in Romans 4 for instance about the requirement of faith, with the exclusion of all works.

I'd imagine that you would except water baptism as a work, is that correct? Or what are your thoughts on that?

Much love!

 

[Godslittleservant]

It doesn't seem weird to me, but then that's a good example for discussion of Bible interpretation. It seems one way to you, and it seems a different way to me, so we just need to know what God says.

Nicodemus was questioning how to be "born again", and how can he enter his mother's womb to be reborn? Jesus answers, there are two different kinds of birth, water, and Spirit. And He goes on to say, what is born of flesh is flesh, what is born of spirit is spirit.

John 3:3-6 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I see a correspondence between born of water and born of flesh.

Much love!

Yes I understand that this is a very controversial topic but we have to reason through it. Yes we will have trouble understanding this because this is a spiritual teaching that has not yet been taught to the public in the time of Nicodemus so yes He did not understand but Jesus tried to explain it the best he could with out fully giving them knowledge what what lied ahead for him.

Jesus answered him that no he did not mean that he had to enter the second time into his mothers wound Now remember as I keep trying to get people to see this is when the baptism of John came into being it is something the Jews do not understand why be baptized in water Jesus is telling them of the future baptism that will be replacing Johns right now it is just a water baptism but soon it will be a baptism in water and in spirit.

I think you are over looking or maybe missing the fact that this is the transition time from old covenant to new Jesus can not come out and say clearly what is transforming because the cross is not fully understood until after the cross

Okay I hope I am making sense I am running out of ways to explain what I see.

 

[marks]

I think you are over looking or maybe missing the fact that this is the transition time from old covenant to new Jesus can not come out and say clearly what is transforming because the cross is not fully understood until after the cross

Personally, I think the heart of the answer is found here. How familiar are you with the prophecies of the Messianic Kingdom promised to Israel? I don't know how you feel about the word dispensations. I think there was a particular way at a particular time, and with Jesus, that way changed, and with Israel's rejection of Jesus (post resurrection) that way changed again.

Have you cataloged where in the New Testament water baptism is spoken of, and in what ways? I don't think I'll have time to delve into that this afternoon. I'll leave it something to think about for the moment.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Okay I hope I am making sense I am running out of ways to explain what I see.

I think I'm understanding you. Baptism is shown in the Bible alongside of salvation, and forgiveness of sins, and should be considered a part of becoming reborn. That we need to be born from water and spirit, so we go into the water, and go into the Spirit. Simply stated?

And I appreciate the passages you are sharing to support your view.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes I understand that this is a very controversial topic but we have to reason through it.

I think the answers aren't found in just one place. You've made a good presentation for your view, I've presented mine, and as I see it, what remains is to see if this provides harmony with the rest of Scripture, or if there are conflicts.

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Not every filling of the Holy Spirit is a baptism of the Spirit. Baptism of the Spirit is special as Luke and Peter wanted to make it clear.

Precious friend,

1) Thanks. It is good you showed examples of "the filling of The Spirit":

2) Where are the Scriptures showing "the baptism OF ( or In ) The Spirit," as I have only seen

"With" and "By"?​

3) What do you believe would then be God's 'Purpose' of each, or are they Exactly "The Same"?

Thanks.

 

[marks]

@Godslittleservant

Something that may interest you, when I was 19, my sister asked me if I wanted to be baptized with her in 2 weeks time. I didn't, but God started working on me. In those 2 weeks, I came to see how the prophecies in the Bible were real, unlike any other, and so that Book must be true. That being the case, I figured I'd better start obeying Jesus, and to start off, I joined my sister in baptism, double dunked by Pastor Chuck.

When I look at the beginning of my salvation, that is the moment I look to. Though I see now that it was my moment of faith, and receiving.

Much love! Great discussion!

 

[Godslittleservant]

That seems to be the question here, doesn't it?

Cornelius shows that water baptism isn't required to receive the Holy Spirit. Would Cornelius have been baptized in the Spirit without water? Since water baptism came later?

Much love!

PS . . . I'll be offline after 5 pm . . . I don't want you to think I'm just disappearing. I should be back on for a while tomorrow afternoon/evening, Lord willing.

This is not as clear cut as you wish
There are two things happening here and we must slowing distinguish between the two

This is a good place to show the difference between the spirit UPON and the spirit WITHIN

We have to pay attention to the context

The spirit upon is when God fills you with the spirit temporarily to show that it is God working though someone or something accompanied with signs usually tongues so that you know it is from God. This is not something that ever individual gets it is used as signs from God to prove authority from God

The spirit within is the indwelling spirit this is the one that God gives every individual it does not have the power of confirming but produces fruit of the spirit to help you in life.

Now lets look at the story

Cornelius is praying to God and trying to live his life for God. God has decided it is time to add the gentile to the kingdom so he prepare Peter for this mission
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

The Jews did not associate with the gentile so God had to get Peter prepared to do this mission and the ones with Peter needed showed it was Gods plan to add the gentile to the kingdom

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

That is showing the mind set of the Jews that are with Peter but as he was sent so he Preached the gospel that he preached in Acts 2 and while he preached the spirit Came upon as it did them at Pentecost

Now here is your answer to which the signs were for was it for the unbelieving Jews?

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Note here that it is the finishing of what Joel foretold that the spirit was to be poured out on the Jews as well as the gentiles and this is the out pouring of the spirit on the gentiles giving them the right to become part of the family of God The accompanying signs was to show the Jews that assisted Peter that this was Gods will it says no where that it was the indwelling.

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Now that God has given signs that the gentiles are to be added Peter tells them what they must do just as in Acts 2

Two more things to note

This out pouring only happened to Peter and the other 12 in Acts 2 and did not happen again until here as Peter made note of.There are plenty of people added to the church but none like the out pouring talked of here it is different than what religious groups call it it is not the same as being taught today. There is only two accounts recorded in the word that I can find.

Now why did Peter command them to be baptized in the water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ? Because it is for the remission of sin and where the indwelling spirit is given.
Acts 2:38 Romans 6:3ff Acts 19:1-5 these all harmonize and support each other

Acts 2:38 tells us it is in the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ that we get our sins remitted and receive the spirit.
Romans 6 tells us just what work GOD is doing in this baptism Acts 10:47,48 makes it clear that Acts 2:38 is in water and Acts 19:1-5 makes it clear that it is where the spirit is given

this is from the study of what is the one baptism that I have done to me if all flows and supports each scripture. I know that some find it hard to take and call it a work of man but baptism in the name of Christ is all about Christ and the cross. It is not man doing the work in baptism man can not remit his sin and man can not raise himself from the grave into the newness of life only God does this and it look clear to me that he chose the means of baptism in his sons name to do it.

 

[Godslittleservant]

Baptism was a common practice among the Jews for both ritual cleansing and proselytizing. The strange thing to the Pharisees is why would they have to be baptized? Not only are they already Jews, but they were Pharisees of all things. Paul wrote referring to his own righteousness, that he was a Pharisee. Them and righteousness were supposed to be hand in hand.

"So what do you mean I have to be baptized as if I'm a gentile sinner!!!"

Much love!

Ok good question I will have to look deeper into this before I can answer

 

[Godslittleservant]

@Godslittleservant

Something that may interest you, when I was 19, my sister asked me if I wanted to be baptized with her in 2 weeks time. I didn't, but God started working on me. In those 2 weeks, I came to see how the prophecies in the Bible were real, unlike any other, and so that Book must be true. That being the case, I figured I'd better start obeying Jesus, and to start off, I joined my sister in baptism, double dunked by Pastor Chuck.

When I look at the beginning of my salvation, that is the moment I look to. Though I see now that it was my moment of faith, and receiving.

Much love! Great discussion!

That is good one thing I would ask is if the moment of faith and receiving could not have been at the same time as the baptism? could they not have all flowed together into one conversion?

 

[TonyChanYT]

Where are the Scriptures showing "the baptism OF ( or In ) The Spirit," as I have only seen
"With" and "By"?

Can you give me a specific verse?

 

[quietthinker]

If you are going to open with such a remark as that I don't care to discuss with you for I can tell you are closed minded by your remark.

So, you have the opinion of yourself as a teacher?

 

[Cassandra]

I read that this is actually talking about the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38) which is a spiritual baptism for in it God is working a spiritual transformation of making us dead from sin to alive in Christ. I feel that the scriptures support this view if you allow them and follow the teaching.

I realized that this is very controversial and we must all really open our hearts and follow the bible on this but we can study this with a humble spirit of seeking the truth.

I read and believe that there were two baptisms--one unto John, looking forward to the Messiah, and one unto Jesus. believing and accepting that He is the Messiah. With Jesus one is promised the Comforter. The baptism of Jesus is the Spirit baptism.

 

[Godslittleservant]

So, you have the opinion of yourself as a teacher?

You are seeking an argument aren't you sorry poster you will have to find it elsewhere May God bless you poster