Is Universalism true?

[FaithWillDo]

I answered already.
One thing at a time.
Your repeating yourself doesn't make you right.

Dear ScottA,
The Early and Latter Rain is frequently taught in scripture. However, it is at the core of "the great mystery of Christ and the church" (Eph 5:32) and is very concealed. Only the "few" are given a proper understanding of this great mystery of how Christ builds His church. The apostate church is blind to it because they are only consuming leavened bread.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The leaven is hidden in the bread so that those who consume it don't know it's there. That's the nature of being deceived. The woman who took the leaven from Satan represents mankind's worsened carnal nature. It is through mankind's carnality that Satan deceives the world. After a believer receives the spirit of anti-Christ, the woman becomes the Great Harlot who is dwelt with devils (Rev 18:2). After she hides the leaven in the bread, it changes the Gospel of Christ (which is solely based on faith) into a gospel which is based upon man's works. When that "another gospel" (2Cor 11:4) is consumed, the believer will fall from grace. Until Christ comes to a believer a second time and heals their spiritual blindness, they are going to remain under Satan's deceptions and authority, all the while believing that they are following Christ. They are utterly and completely deceived.

Christ said this about the power of Satan's deceptions:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The time period between the Early and Latter Rains is called the Day of Evil, Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought or the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's Seventy weeks prophecy. All of Christ's Elect since "Paul's departing" will experience Satan's Day of Evil. But after Christ comes to them a second time, they will begin experiencing the Day of the Lord. Under Christ's rulership, the fallen away Elect believer will be converted from a child of the devil into a child of God. After they are converted, they will never fall away again.

To understand the pathway to salvation the Elect must travel, you have to have a proper understanding of the Early and Latter Rains. That is why I frequently teach about them.

As for you having already answered me, you have not quoted even one scripture to show why you believe I am wrong. You will never convince me of anything without scripture.

Joe

 

[Pierac]

Universalism is the belief that everyone will be saved eventually.

Jesus says in Matthew 25:


Some will go to eternal punishment; others to eternal life.

Will everyone have eternal life?

No, John 5:


Is universalism true?

I doubt it. To be on the safe side for myself, I would not rely my salvation on it. To be on the safe side for others, I would not tell others that universalism is true.

NOTE: GOD is Love.... remember this when reading below.....

NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

CEV Joh 6:44 No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day.

More...
NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

CEV Joh 6:65 Then Jesus said, "You cannot come to me, unless the Father makes you want to come. That is why I have told these things to all of you."

More...
NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48 This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.


NASB Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Now for some Meat....
NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Net Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29(G280) since we were predestined (G4309) according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

Word study
G2820
κληρόω
klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.
Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.

That's A__Lot to take in.....

Wait....
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Your answer is here....

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.... But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He (Jesus) must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Co 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him (GOD), then the Son (Jesus) Himself also will be subjected to the One (GOD) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.

And you thought John's Revelations contained the end..... It's Paul

Here's a bonus from Paul

1Ti 4:9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. 11 Command and teach these things.

 

[FaithWillDo]

NOTE: GOD is Love.... remember this when reading below.....

NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

CEV Joh 6:44 No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day.

More...
NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

CEV Joh 6:65 Then Jesus said, "You cannot come to me, unless the Father makes you want to come. That is why I have told these things to all of you."

More...
NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48 This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.


NASB Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Now for some Meat....
NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Net Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29(G280) since we were predestined (G4309) according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

Word study
G2820
κληρόω
klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.
Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.

That's A__Lot to take in.....

Wait....
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Your answer is here....

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.... But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He (Jesus) must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Co 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him (GOD), then the Son (Jesus) Himself also will be subjected to the One (GOD) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.

And you thought John's Revelations contained the end..... It's Paul

Here's a bonus from Paul

1Ti 4:9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. 11 Command and teach these things.

Dear Pierac,
I completely agree with your post.

I also agree that Paul is the one who teaches what happens at the end of the final age and not the Book of Revelation. The book of Revelation is a teaching (through spiritual symbols) on the pathway to salvation that the Elect will travel. The book says that the Elect will "keep the sayings of the prophecy" (Rev 22:7-9) which lead up to their salvation. This includes both the good and the bad sayings. The book ends (ch. 21 & 22) with the presentation of the resurrected Elect in their glorified spiritual bodies. The book then gives a glimpse of what happens at the end of the final age with this statement:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This call to the lost of the final age was also "typed" by Christ when He secretly attended the Feast of Tabernacles:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

The Feast of Tabernacles (Feast of Ingathering) celebrates the end of the harvest season. That celebration is a "type" for the great and final harvest of mankind into the Kingdom of Heaven. As Paul says, "then cometh the consummation" which is the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles and the salvation of all mankind.

1Cor 15: 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The order of the salvation of mankind begins with the salvation of the Elect in this age "at His coming". This event is when Christ spiritually comes to an Elect believer and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. This occurs sometimes during the lifetime of each of the Elect. The Latter Rain of the Spirit is the same baptism that the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and is what Paul received after being blind in Damascus for three days. This event is the Second Coming of Christ. Christ does not come to the world at the literal end of this age as is commonly taught. Christ's second coming is to bring salvation to His Elect before they physically die.

When Christ gives an Elect believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit, their spiritual blindness will be healed. This is when they are given "eyes that can see". As a result, Christ appears to them spiritually and the Word of God opens up to their understanding.

Paul mentions the Latter Rain event here:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Paul goes on to say that the final and complete harvest of mankind occurs at the "consummation" (v. 24). This event will occur in response to Christ's call to the lost for them to come and drink of the water of life freely.

Paul then completes the ages by saying that Christ's reign will come to an end when He delivers up the Kingdom of Heaven to His Father. At that time, God will be "all in all". What a glorious day that will be!

Thanks for your post.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
The Early and Latter Rain is frequently taught in scripture. However, it is at the core of "the great mystery of Christ and the church" (Eph 5:32) and is very concealed. Only the "few" are given a proper understanding of this great mystery of how Christ builds His church. The apostate church is blind to it because they are only consuming leavened bread.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The leaven is hidden in the bread so that those who consume it don't know it's there. That's the nature of being deceived. The woman who took the leaven from Satan represents mankind's worsened carnal nature. It is through mankind's carnality that Satan deceives the world. After a believer receives the spirit of anti-Christ, the woman becomes the Great Harlot who is dwelt with devils (Rev 18:2). After she hides the leaven in the bread, it changes the Gospel of Christ (which is solely based on faith) into a gospel which is based upon man's works. When that "another gospel" (2Cor 11:4) is consumed, the believer will fall from grace. Until Christ comes to a believer a second time and heals their spiritual blindness, they are going to remain under Satan's deceptions and authority, all the while believing that they are following Christ. They are utterly and completely deceived.

Christ said this about the power of Satan's deceptions:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The time period between the Early and Latter Rains is called the Day of Evil, Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought or the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's Seventy weeks prophecy. All of Christ's Elect since "Paul's departing" will experience Satan's Day of Evil. But after Christ comes to them a second time, they will begin experiencing the Day of the Lord. Under Christ's rulership, the fallen away Elect believer will be converted from a child of the devil into a child of God. After they are converted, they will never fall away again.

To understand the pathway to salvation the Elect must travel, you have to have a proper understanding of the Early and Latter Rains. That is why I frequently teach about them.

As for you having already answered me, you have not quoted even one scripture to show why you believe I am wrong. You will never convince me of anything without scripture.

Joe

You are repeating yourself again, and it is obvious that you have convinced yourself that you are correct. But what you are saying, and falsely teaching, is incorrect.

As for me not quoting scripture-- I simply stated "all scripture." Did you not understand what I meant? In any case, you have rejected what I said, meaning, you have rejected "all scripture" and continue to cling to just the few half-truths you have misunderstood, making your own false gospel.

As for what I believe (and your question of what I "believe")..."believe" is the wrong word or term. I do not believe per se, nor did I first believe and then came to "know" the truth of God. But instead did not "believe", cried out to a God I did not know or believe in--and He answered, I was caught up in the Spirit, which by His word was to the third heaven, and then returned, leaving me to first "know" the truth from Him before ever believing. God knows.

As for your leaven confirmation of your understanding of the former and the latter rain--it is no confirmation. Matthew 13:33 does not mean what you have stated, which then leads to other misinterpretations of believers and the antiChrist spirit. But refers rather to "a time, times, and half a time" where darkness (and the blindness you have referred to) is upon all who are born of the flesh "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

And I really should stick to "one thing at a time" as I said, because you have too much to be corrected of. But regarding your former and latter rain theory of Christ appearing twice...what you have described is not the two advents, nor any other would-be gospel between two visitations where blindness comes over the believer...as He is not the "rain." The rain rather, is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, which in the former is poured out upon Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their seed, and the latter upon the all peoples, meaning the gentiles, that other fold which Christ must also bring.

But now I must insist again, if we are to continue, that you refer to one thing at a time. And that you may know that I am not speaking what I merely believe, but what I know to be true from God-- what do the scriptures say...who and how many have been caught up unto the third heaven?

 

[FaithWillDo]

You are repeating yourself again, and it is obvious that you have convinced yourself that you are correct. But what you are saying, and falsely teaching, is incorrect.

As for me not quoting scripture-- I simply stated "all scripture." Did you not understand what I meant? In any case, you have rejected what I said, meaning, you have rejected "all scripture" and continue to cling to just the few half-truths you have misunderstood, making your own false gospel.

As for what I believe (and your question of what I "believe")..."believe" is the wrong word or term. I do not believe per se, nor did I first believe and then came to "know" the truth of God. But instead did not "believe", cried out to a God I did not know or believe in--and He answered, I was caught up in the Spirit, which by His word was to the third heaven, and then returned, leaving me to first "know" the truth from Him before ever believing. God knows.

As for your leaven confirmation of your understanding of the former and the latter rain--it is no confirmation. Matthew 13:33 does not mean what you have stated, which then leads to other misinterpretations of believers and the antiChrist spirit. But refers rather to "a time, times, and half a time" where darkness (and the blindness you have referred to) is upon all who are born of the flesh "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

And I really should stick to "one thing at a time" as I said, because you have too much to be corrected of. But regarding your former and latter rain theory of Christ appearing twice...what you have described is not the two advents, nor any other would-be gospel between two visitations where blindness comes over the believer...as He is not the "rain." The rain rather, is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, which in the former is poured out upon Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their seed, and the latter upon the all peoples, meaning the gentiles, that other fold which Christ must also bring.

But now I must insist again, if we are to continue, that you refer to one thing at a time. And that you may know that I am not speaking what I merely believe, but what I know to be true from God-- what do the scriptures say...who and how many have been caught up unto the third heaven?

Dear ScottA,
You say that your understanding comes from "all scripture" but yet you won't produce even one verse that supports anything that you have said. To prove anything to be true, the law says that you must have two or three witnesses (Deu 19:15). Here is where Christ teaches this truth as it applies to God's Word:

Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Christ teaches truth only in His spiritual language (John 6:63, Isa 28:11). Since you say you can "see", do you understand what Christ is teaching above?

Joe

 

[Pierac]

You are repeating yourself again, and it is obvious that you have convinced yourself that you are correct. But what you are saying, and falsely teaching, is incorrect.

As for me not quoting scripture-- I simply stated "all scripture." Did you not understand what I meant? In any case, you have rejected what I said, meaning, you have rejected "all scripture" and continue to cling to just the few half-truths you have misunderstood, making your own false gospel.

As for what I believe (and your question of what I "believe")..."believe" is the wrong word or term. I do not believe per se, nor did I first believe and then came to "know" the truth of God. But instead did not "believe", cried out to a God I did not know or believe in--and He answered, I was caught up in the Spirit, which by His word was to the third heaven, and then returned, leaving me to first "know" the truth from Him before ever believing. God knows.

As for your leaven confirmation of your understanding of the former and the latter rain--it is no confirmation. Matthew 13:33 does not mean what you have stated, which then leads to other misinterpretations of believers and the antiChrist spirit. But refers rather to "a time, times, and half a time" where darkness (and the blindness you have referred to) is upon all who are born of the flesh "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

And I really should stick to "one thing at a time" as I said, because you have too much to be corrected of. But regarding your former and latter rain theory of Christ appearing twice...what you have described is not the two advents, nor any other would-be gospel between two visitations where blindness comes over the believer...as He is not the "rain." The rain rather, is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, which in the former is poured out upon Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their seed, and the latter upon the all peoples, meaning the gentiles, that other fold which Christ must also bring.

But now I must insist again, if we are to continue, that you refer to one thing at a time. And that you may know that I am not speaking what I merely believe, but what I know to be true from God-- what do the scriptures say...who and how many have been caught up unto the third heaven?

You speak as a Child... Taking the traditions of Men as Your truth!

As for me not quoting scripture-- I simply stated "all scripture." Did you not understand what I meant? In any case, you have rejected what I said, meaning, you have rejected "all scripture" and continue to cling to just the few half-truths you have misunderstood, making your own false gospel.

Your comment speaks volumes... You fail to even believe much less read all scripture as you claim.... I will prove it!!!!

What did God tell Adam....?

Gen 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
Gen 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

You don't believe God.... You believe your 1st century Greek system that reads differently...

Gen 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will burn in a fire for Eternity!!!

Wait.... That's not what God said!!!

If you actually read or tried to quote scripture you would read through out the Bible.... All Laws and advice was about..... How to live a long life (ie. Not die) not avoiding burning in a fire forever....

Read it.. for once and not post what your Pastor told you.... Obey your parents.... Why??? So you can live a long life.... Eat this.... Why??? So you can live a long life... ? Or your view... Obey your parents so you don't burn...

Your in deep trouble ScottA.... Jesus died for your sins.... He is not burning in eternity for your sins!!!

This is why you fail....
You follow the traditions of men.... Never to seek the truth outside what your told...

This is an opportunity for you to actually think!!!

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
You say that your understanding comes from "all scripture"

One thing at a time.

No--that is not what I said. You are not off to a good start. You apparently have a comprehension problem, so sloooow down.

On the contrary, I mentioned "all scripture" for YOUR benefit and consideration, because you have only referred to part of the scriptures and not reconciled your understanding of those parts with the whole gospel of all scripture. What I did say, is that what I know, I know directly from God (and it is confirmed by all scripture, not part).

 

[ScottA]

you won't produce even one verse that supports anything that you have said.

I have said "all scripture." But again you do not understand.

...Here, maybe this will help: Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21 (i.e. all scripture).

 

[ScottA]

To prove anything to be true, the law says that you must have two or three witnesses (Deu 19:15). Here is where Christ teaches this truth as it applies to God's Word:

Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Christ teaches truth only in His spiritual language (John 6:63, Isa 28:11). Since you say you can "see", do you understand what Christ is teaching above?

Joe

It is a parable of "on earth as it is in heaven", also elaborated here: "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one." 1 John 5:7-8

Why do you ask?

 

[ScottA]

You speak as a Child... Taking the traditions of Men as Your truth!

As for me not quoting scripture-- I simply stated "all scripture." Did you not understand what I meant? In any case, you have rejected what I said, meaning, you have rejected "all scripture" and continue to cling to just the few half-truths you have misunderstood, making your own false gospel.

Your comment speaks volumes... You fail to even believe much less read all scripture as you claim.... I will prove it!!!!

What did God tell Adam....?

Gen 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
Gen 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

You don't believe God.... You believe your 1st century Greek system that reads differently...

Gen 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will burn in a fire for Eternity!!!

Wait.... That's not what God said!!!

If you actually read or tried to quote scripture you would read through out the Bible.... All Laws and advice was about..... How to live a long life (ie. Not die) not avoiding burning in a fire forever....

Read it.. for once and not post what your Pastor told you.... Obey your parents.... Why??? So you can live a long life.... Eat this.... Why??? So you can live a long life... ? Or your view... Obey your parents so you don't burn...

Your in deep trouble ScottA.... Jesus died for your sins.... He is not burning in eternity for your sins!!!

This is why you fail....
You follow the traditions of men.... Never to seek the truth outside what your told...

This is an opportunity for you to actually think!!!

Are you a moron or a liar?

I never said or even indicated anything of the sort.

 

[FaithWillDo]

It is a parable of "on earth as it is in heaven", also elaborated here: "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one." 1 John 5:7-8

Why do you ask?

Dear ScottA,
The reason I asked was to see if you really had any ability to understand scripture. Your response to Luke 22:35-38 doesn't make any sense.

You should be trying to answer these questions about what Christ said:

1). What did it mean when Christ first sent out the Apostles without the listed provisions (all spiritual symbols by the way)?

2). Why does Christ now tell them that the next time they go out, they should take the provisions?

3). What does all this have to do with Christ being rejected by the world and being crucified (v. 37)?

4). Why does Christ tell them to sell their garment and buy a sword?

5). Why are two swords enough?

If you can answer those questions, you will have some idea of what Christ is actually teaching in Luke 22:35-38.

By the way, this teaching is not a parable. The teaching is a "type" which teaches a message from the literal events that happened. A parable is a fictional story that teaches a message.

Also, I have no idea why you quoted 1John 5:7-8. It does not relate to what Christ is teaching in Luke. In fact, 1John5:7 is not even scripture. It was later added to try to give more support to the false doctrine of the trinity.

Joe

 

[face2face]

Dear Tony,
Yes, Judas will be saved in the final age with the rest of the lost. No one is too sinful to be saved.

Paul considered himself to be the chief of sinners, yet Christ saved him in a moment of time.

All mankind sins and the penalty for our sin is death (not eternal torment in fire). For that reason, all mankind is condemned already. To be saved, we must be "born again" because the old vessel (carnal mankind) is headed for destruction.

Do you understand the conversion process that I have been explaining in my other posts?

Joe

The Scripture provides Peter as being listed first who denied his Lord, while Judas is always listed last who betrayed his Lord.

It's possible you do not understand the difference between denial and betrayal? @TonyChanYT

When Jesus states “Woe unto that man” it would be better if that man “Had not been born” it means what it says.

There is a dreadful consequences facing the betrayer - Read Psa 109:1-20.

Verse 8 applies "May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership" (Matthias!!!)

So he hung himself, as did Ahithophel in 2 Sam 17:23.

He is likened to Cain who turned his back on God, though here he did not seek mercy of forgiveness, but in his shame he ended himself.

He is buried in the field of blood for two reasons:

(1) It was purchased with blood money
(2) scene of the bloody death of Judas Acts 1:18

The Word of God provides some insight into the mind of Judas before he did this thing to himself.

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

“Repented” here is not the usual word for ‘Godly’ repentance. Here “metamellomai” = “a change of feeling”, “regret”, as opposed to “Metandeo” = “change of heart and purpose” such as Acts 2:38

Unfortunately @FaithWillDo its not what you want - I get that but the Word is more than clear about his end.

F2F

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
The reason I asked was to see if you really had any ability to understand scripture. Your response to Luke 22:35-38 doesn't make any sense.

You should be trying to answer these questions about what Christ said:

1). What did it mean when Christ first sent out the Apostles without the listed provisions (all spiritual symbols by the way)?

2). Why does Christ now tell them that the next time they go out, they should take the provisions?

3). What does all this have to do with Christ being rejected by the world and being crucified (v. 37)?

4). Why does Christ tell them to sell their garment and buy a sword?

5). Why are two swords enough?

If you can answer those questions, you will have some idea of what Christ is actually teaching in Luke 22:35-38.

By the way, this teaching is not a parable. The teaching is a "type" which teaches a message from the literal events that happened. A parable is a fictional story that teaches a message.

Also, I have no idea why you quoted 1John 5:7-8. It does not relate to what Christ is teaching in Luke. In fact, 1John5:7 is not even scripture. It was later added to try to give more support to the false doctrine of the trinity.

Joe

It went over your head (I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, that perhaps you actually understood. Apparently you do not).

As for what is scripture and what is not-- that is not for you to say, but is the providence of God alone.

 

[FaithWillDo]

The Scripture provides Peter as being listed first who denied his Lord, while Judas is always listed last who betrayed his Lord.

It's possible you do not understand the difference between denial and betrayal? @TonyChanYT

When Jesus states “Woe unto that man” it would be better if that man “Had not been born” it means what it says.

There is a dreadful consequences facing the betrayer - Read Psa 109:1-20.

Verse 8 applies "May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership" (Matthias!!!)

So he hung himself, as did Ahithophel in 2 Sam 17:23.

He is likened to Cain who turned his back on God, though here he did not seek mercy of forgiveness, but in his shame he ended himself.

He is buried in the field of blood for two reasons:

(1) It was purchased with blood money
(2) scene of the bloody death of Judas Acts 1:18

The Word of God provides some insight into the mind of Judas before he did this thing to himself.

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

“Repented” here is not the usual word for ‘Godly’ repentance. Here “metamellomai” = “a change of feeling”, “regret”, as opposed to “Metandeo” = “change of heart and purpose” such as Acts 2:38

Unfortunately @FaithWillDo its not what you want - I get that but the Word is more than clear about his end.

F2F

Dear face2face,
You are forgetting justice, mercy and faith in your judgement of Judas. Christ will not:

Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Christ will not pervert judgment as does mankind:

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

You need to read Joel chapter 2. It is a prophecy on the judgment of the lost in the final age. The chapter begins by presenting Christ's army. They are the Elect. Then in verse verse 18 it says:

Joel 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

Christ will then pour out the Early and Latter Rain on them which will produce their new birth:

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

After the lost are saved, they will be gathered to heaven just as the Elect were gathered when they were saved. Justice will then be served by the destruction of who they used to be: carnal mankind.

After all mankind has finally been saved, this verse will be fulfilled:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Judas will certainly not be forgotten by Christ. Christ loves him every bit as much as He loves anyone else. Christ even said that those who are forgiven much, will love much.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Do you not know that God's "will" rules supreme over mankind's "will"? Because it does, God is responsible when we sin. Paul was asked about this truth and why God still holds mankind accountable for when we sin even though we had no choice in the matter.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Judas served a purpose in this creation and his heart was hardened to do what he did. And yes, God will still find fault with Judas, but in the end, Christ will not omit mercy and faith in Judas's judgment. Surely Christ will not fail to save him, just as He won't fail to save the chief priests who were responsible for His crucifixion. They, too, served a purpose in God's creation.

Here is what Christ said to chief priests:

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

Judas and the chief priests were not made to be vessels of honor (the Elect) but they will still enter the Kingdom of God before the work of Christ is finished.

The doctrines that you follow show that you are seeing Christ as a "hard man". He is not.

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

Christ is gentle, loving and merciful. Someday Christ will appear to you and you will finally see Him as I do.

Joe

 

[face2face]

Judas served a purpose in this creation and his heart was hardened to do what he did. And yes, God will still find fault with Judas, but in the end, Christ will not omit mercy and faith in Judas's judgment. Surely Christ will not fail to save him, just as He won't fail to save the chief priests who were responsible for His crucifixion. They, too, served a purpose in God's creation.

Joe

Acts 1:18 states that Judas used the money to buy a field, and "[fell] headlong... burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

Why does the record tell us his intestines gushed out?

What does the Bible teach us about the bowels?

I think the issue is you are ignoring the Biblical account, opting to go elsewhere to find mercy - its admirable, but I suggest you should deal with the record first...to guide you to a truth.

F2F

 

[FaithWillDo]

Acts 1:18 states that Judas used the money to buy a field, and "[fell] headlong... burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

Why does the record tell us his intestines gushed out?

What does the Bible teach us about the bowels?

I think the issue is you are ignoring the Biblical account, opting to go elsewhere to find mercy - its admirable, but I suggest you should deal with the record first...to guide you to a truth.

F2F

Dear face2face,
Acts 1:18 has nothing to do with whether or not Judas will ever be saved.

Judas' bowels being spilled out is a symbol for his great distress after He found out what he had done to Christ. This is a "type" for what will happen to believers in the apostate church.

Judas is a "type" for all fallen away believers who will likewise become a "man of sin" just as Judas did. And being like Judas, they, too, will betray Christ and cause him to be crucified afresh.

Heb 6:6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

A second witness to this truth is taught in the story of the infirmed man who was healed by Christ at the Pool of Bethesda. His healing is a type for a person receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit and entering the church. Later in the story, the healed man betrays Christ to the Jews just as Judas did.

Sometime after a fallen away believer has been made into a "man of sin (worse than the first, Mat 12:43-45), they, too, will discover that they are responsible for Christ being crucified afresh. When this day (the Day of the Lord) arrives, their bowels will also spill out from their great distress of knowing what they did (spiritually speaking).

All of what I stated above has nothing to do with whether or not Judas (and the apostate church) will ever be restored to Christ. For that answer, we must look elsewhere in scripture.

All mankind (including Judas) is "in Adam". And all who are in Adam will be saved "in Christ".

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Here is a second witness to that truth:

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

This is all the evidence one needs to consider as to whether or not Judas will ever be saved.

Joe

 

[Bob Estey]

Universalism is the belief that everyone will be saved eventually.

Jesus says in Matthew 25:


Some will go to eternal punishment; others to eternal life.

Will everyone have eternal life?

No, John 5:


Is universalism true?

I doubt it. To be on the safe side for myself, I would not rely my salvation on it. To be on the safe side for others, I would not tell others that universalism is true.

I think all who repent will find the way.

 

[face2face]

Dear face2face,
Acts 1:18 has nothing to do with whether or not Judas will ever be saved.

Judas' bowels being spilled out is a symbol for his great distress after He found out what he had done to Christ. This is a "type" for what will happen to believers in the apostate church.

You ran away in the wrong direction Faith.

When Paul wrote, “Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels” (2 Corinthians 6:12), he meant “You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections.” When he tells the Philippians (1:8) that he longs for them “in the bowels of Jesus Christ,” it means “with the affection of Christ Jesus.” Again, in Philippians 2:1 “bowels” means “affection.”

What does it mean for Judas that his bowels gushed out?

F2F

 

[FaithWillDo]

You ran away in the wrong direction Faith.

When Paul wrote, “Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels” (2 Corinthians 6:12), he meant “You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections.” When he tells the Philippians (1:8) that he longs for them “in the bowels of Jesus Christ,” it means “with the affection of Christ Jesus.” Again, in Philippians 2:1 “bowels” means “affection.”

What does it mean for Judas that his bowels gushed out?

F2F

Dear face2face,
Here is what "bowels" means:

Jer 14:9 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

The term "bowels" represents what is in the heart. It can mean "distress" as in the case of Judas and it can mean "affection" as in the case of Phi 1:8.

Here is a second witness to the meaning of "bowels" as it applies to Judas:

Lam 1:20 Behold, O LORD; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home there is as death.

Clearly, the term "bowels" is synonymous with the term "heart".

Joe

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to all,

My personal believe is that universal salvation has been made to all and for all, What does that mean? That Yahava, having sent the Word of God, made flesh named Yeshua, and Immanuel (which means God wish us.) Used the body which the Lord Yeshua gave up on the cross in order for sin to be imputed into an eternal offering that can never be rejected for it was one time and for all and a sacrifice which Yeshua had decide willingly to give up his life for the Father, and out love for allowing his will to be done, and also having faith that his Father would get him through as he traveled to his death, and after burial, in Sheol, for 3 days and 3 night, and raised again by his Father, who now adopts those who have faith, that there is more to this life, than just death, that would be that Jesus has conquered over death, and spiritual death, Satan, Hades (Sheol), the Beast, the False prophet, Sin,

What does this all entail? While I do not know what the eternal aspect of our life after this looks like, all that is known is that no man has ever seen nor heard, the things which God has in store for those who love him. There are implications founded in Revelation which do speak about Yahava, and the Lamb, the Kingdom of God and its material segments, and also that the Gates of the kingdom never close, and God never stops calling out, to reach people by the spirit. With also people who are I assume unbelievers who desired not to be with Yahava, who are outside the gates.

Even the Son of Man, the Nazarene, Jesus stated that there will be a resurrection of judgement (condemnation.) Also a resurrection of life. The writer of Hebrews writes about desiring a better resurrection that the normal, and Paul also mentions the same thing to the Philippians,. With this being something to consider it makes a lot of sense at least to me, which I may be wrong, a person who chooses to have faith daily trusting the Father who has adopted you and praying and praising and loving God, first, with all your mind, all your heart, all your soul is the most benefical for over all building up faith and one who decides to build up trust in the Lord, they will go and see what is said from him, like how those who worship God should worship God in spirit and truth. God seeks people to worship him in Spirit and truth, and he is pleased by a person having faith in looking to him.