The 144,000 before God at the end.

[covenantee]

You can take Josephus over me as he was there, and I was not. But that is not the point.

That's what I've done, and that's the point.

Glad that you admit it.

 

[Zao is life]

True. It did not fulfill Daniel 9:24.

Calvary did that.

It's also fulfilled Daniel 9:26-27

 

[Zao is life]

Whatever satan does in Rev 12, it is after the ascension of Christ and before the tribulation. He tries to harm the woman Israel, and fails so he goes after the remnant of her seed.

I agree.

According to what you say above, either the tribulation was 70 A.D (Preterism), OR the tribulation is still coming, and the woman's seed have never been free from Satan's wiles and attacks on the church since Satan began to direct his war and rage against the rest of the woman's seed, nor will we be free until after the tribulation.

I believe the latter is the case. I believe that you do too.

Satan turned his attention to the rest of the woman's seed immediately after the earth helped the woman by swallowing up the flood he had sent after her.

When do you believe the above occurred?

(a) What century?; and

(b) What event was it in history?​

 

[Zao is life]

You still refuse to address the historical evidence.

Why?

@David in NJ answered in Post # 1.672.

It's you who does not address the historical evidence that 70 A.D fulfilled Daniel 9:24-27. All of it.

* Luke used the word wrath when He recorded what Jesus had said about what the inhabitants of Judea and Jerusalem were going to experience when armies gathered against Jerusalem (Luke 21:23).​

* Matthew, Mark and Luke all use the words tribulation and persecution when they record what Jesus said about what the living stones of the New Testament Temple were going to experience. I gave you everything Jesus is recorded saying about the tribulation and persecution that the living stones of the New Testament Temple would experience at the end of the Age and immediately before His return. Here it is again:​

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​

​

​

​

 

[Zao is life]

@rwb I had to adjust this below because I made a mess after toggling BB code

I believe the wrath of God that came against the apostate nation was spoken by Christ as being "great tribulation" for the Jewish nation even as it would be for the Church. That wasn't the same kind of "great tribulation" that would come against the Church as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world, but it was for apostate Jews "great tribulation" none the less. It was for that reason Christ told them when they began to have understanding of the wrath that was coming upon "this people" they should flee.

I know where Scripture speaks of "great tribulation" it is speaking of that which comes against the building of the spiritual Kingdom of God to the Church as She takes the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. Great tribulation, affliction, and persecution is the lot in this life for those who are called Christians. And the Olivet Discourse is not an exception. I'm simply saying that Christ is warning His Jewish disciples not to put their confidence or hope in Jerusalem and the Temple because they will not last. They too shall endure "great tribulation" that shall come to them because they turned away from God, and gave themselves over to spiritual adultery and fornication. For that the city and Temple had already become an abomination unto the Lord, and God would keep His promise to utterly destroy them.

Romans 2:8-11 (KJV) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

Knowing that tribulation and anguish is promised to every man who does evil, both Jew and Gentile alike, I believe "great tribulation" Christ spoke of would come not only through God's wrath against the nation of Israel, but also "great tribulation" that would come to Christ's body, the Church as She faithfully carries out Her mandate to preach the Gospel unto every nation of the world, and then shall the end of time come to this earth.

To try and limit "great tribulation" Christ spoke of to only 70 AD or to the end of this age, I believe causes contradiction. For this reason I believe Christ is warning His Jewish disciples of "great tribulation" that would come not only against the nation of Israel, but also be their lot throughout their lifetimes.

I agree that to try and limit tribulation Christ spoke of to only 70 AD or to the end of this age causes contradiction.

But we're talking about what Jesus prophesied after He arrived on top of the Mount of Olives - which was after He had come out the temple where He had prophesied about its coming destruction.

The reason why I make a distinction between 70 A.D and tribulation/great tribulation is because I take the words chosen by those who wrote down the things Jesus said, very literally:
​

* Luke used the word wrath when He recorded what Jesus had said about what the inhabitants of Judea and Jerusalem were going to experience when armies gathered against Jerusalem (Luke 21:23).​

​

* Matthew, Mark and Luke all use the words tribulation and persecution when they record what Jesus said about what the living stones of the New Testament Temple were going to experience at the end of the Age and the time of His return (my final comment is below the tables comparing the three synoptic gospels):​

I believe that because of the context (see above), Jesus' reference to great tribulation in the Olivet Discourse cannot be taken to be speaking either about the wrath the inhabitants of Jerusalem would experience in 70 A.D, or of the judgment of unbelievers at any time.​

 

[ewq1938]

I agree.

According to what you say above, either the tribulation was 70 A.D (Preterism), OR the tribulation is still coming, and the woman's seed have never been free from Satan's wiles and attacks on the church since Satan began to direct his war and rage against the rest of the woman's seed, nor will we be free until after the tribulation.

I believe the latter is the case. I believe that you do too.

Satan turned his attention to the rest of the woman's seed immediately after the earth helped the woman by swallowing up the flood he had sent after her.

When do you believe the above occurred?

(a) What century?; and

(b) What event was it in history?​

It's a future event which is known as the trib or great trib.

 

[Zao is life]

Satan turned his attention to the rest of the woman's seed immediately after the earth helped the woman by swallowing up the flood he had sent after her.

When do you believe the above occurred?

(a) What century?; and

(b) What event was it in history?​

It's a future event which is known as the trib or great trib.

When is the flood coming against the woman then?

The Seed of the Woman came into the world nearly 2.000 years ago. Does the Woman refer to ethnic Israel who did not (or do not) believe in Jesus, or to ethnic Israel who were (or are) both ethnic Israel and of the faith of Abraham and believe in Jesus, bearing in mind that the rest of the woman's seed are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus?

 

[rwb]

The flood - the flood that destroyed all flesh except those who were lifted up out of the world with the ark they were in - is the type of the 7th bowl of wrath and 7th trumpet - the wrath of God which occurs after the tribulation of the saints and after their resurrection/rapture which comes after the tribulation of the saints.

I'm confused by comments like this? Why do you speak as though Noah and family in the ark were "lifted up out of the world"? The ark wasn't lifted up out of the world, because the ark kept them safe from the water that covered the earth. If the water was on the earth, the ark and all who were in it was still on the earth, floating on the water that covered the earth! What am I missing? What are you and others here trying to prove by saying Noah and those in the ark were lifted/taken out of the world? It simply makes zero sense to me!

 

[Zao is life]

I'm confused by comments like this? Why do you speak as though Noah and family in the ark were "lifted up out of the world"? The ark wasn't lifted up out of the world, because the ark kept them safe from the water that covered the earth. If the water was on the earth, the ark and all who were in it was still on the earth, floating on the water that covered the earth! What am I missing? What are you and others here trying to prove by saying Noah and those in the ark were lifted/taken out of the world? It simply makes zero sense to me!

You're missing the biblical typology again. The water for sure covered the earth. The water was on the earth. Whatever was on the earth perished. The ark was not down below on the earth. It was lifted up. Those in the Ark of our salvation (Jesus) will meet the Lord in the air and whoever is still on the earth will perish.

 

[rwb]

When is the flood coming against the woman then?

The Seed of the Woman came into the world nearly 2.000 years ago. Does the Woman refer to ethnic Israel who did not (or do not) believe in Jesus, or to ethnic Israel who were (or are) both ethnic Israel and of the faith of Abraham and believe in Jesus, bearing in mind that the rest of the woman's seed are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus?

Do you believe it was or shall be a literal flood of water?

 

[Zao is life]

Do you believe it was or shall be a literal flood of water?

It was a flood of water. It shall not be a flood of water again, ever. It will be fire. But Jesus will descend and will send His angels to gather His elect and we will meet the lord in the air - we are not going to be living in heaven with resurrected/spiritual bodies - we are going to be living on the new earth.

 

[rwb]

You're missing the biblical typology again. The water for sure covered the earth. The water was on the earth. Whatever was on the earth perished. The ark was not down below on the earth. It was lifted up. Those in the Ark of our salvation (Jesus) will meet the Lord in the air and whoever is still on the earth will perish.

I don't believe I'm missing biblical typology at all. The ark and those kept safe in it were the exceptions of the utter destruction of all that remained on the earth and perished by the water. The flood came and took all who remained outside the ark away. Not because the ark was lifted up from the earth, but because all who were left were not ordained to live but were destined to destruction.

Matthew 24:38-39 (KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's the water that is the figure/representative of our salvation through baptism that saves us. Not that we are saved by being water baptized but saved by the cross and resurrection of Christ through His baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's why this passage says those in the ark were saved BY water.

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 3:22 (KJV) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Matthew 3:11 (KJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

See also Mk 1:8 & Lu 3:16

It is because in this life/time/age we have been baptized by the Holy Spirit when we believed that when Christ comes again, we shall be caught up with the Lord in the air, and all who remain on the earth shall be consumed by the fire of God's wrath. And life/time/age given this earth shall be no longer.

 

[rwb]

It was a flood of water. It shall not be a flood of water again, ever. It will be fire. But Jesus will descend and will send His angels to gather His elect and we will meet the lord in the air - we are not going to be living in heaven with resurrected/spiritual bodies - we are going to be living on the new earth.

I agree, when believers physically die we shall not be RESURRECTED a spiritual body in heaven. Our spirit, possessing eternal life through His Spirit in us will leave our deceased physical body to ascend a spiritual body of believers in heaven. Where we shall be until the last trumpet sounds. Resurrection is NOT necessary for spirits having ETERNAL life. Resurrection is for the DEAD, not for the living.

 

[Zao is life]

The flood came and took all who remained outside the ark away. Not because the ark was lifted up from the earth, but because all who were left were not ordained to live but were destined to destruction.

If the ark was not lifted from the earth those inside the ark would have perished also. It was the ark of their salvation. Being in the ark is typology for being in Christ, the Ark of our salvation. If we are not lifted up from the earth to meet the Lord in the air we will perish with everyone else.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't believe I'm missing biblical typology at all. The ark and those kept safe in it were the exceptions of the utter destruction of all that remained on the earth and perished by the water. The flood came and took all who remained outside the ark away. Not because the ark was lifted up from the earth, but because all who were left were not ordained to live but were destined to destruction.

Matthew 24:38-39 (KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's the water that is the figure/representative of our salvation through baptism that saves us. Not that we are saved by being water baptized but saved by the cross and resurrection of Christ through His baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's why this passage says those in the ark were saved BY water.

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 3:22 (KJV) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Matthew 3:11 (KJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

See also Mk 1:8 & Lu 3:16

It is because in this life/time/age we have been baptized by the Holy Spirit when we believed that when Christ comes again, we shall be caught up with the Lord in the air, and all who remain on the earth shall be consumed by the fire of God's wrath. And life/time/age given this earth shall be no longer.

1 Pet 2:20 to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved [diá] through water);

01223
διά diá, dee-ah'
a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):--after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) … fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance.

The Red Sea is also a type of baptism by water. So is the Jordan River.

It takes you from what was, into what is new. The earth was replenished after the flood. It's the type of the NHNE. But they had to be taken out of the destruction. "Lifted out of" the destruction. Call it what you want.

 

[rwb]

If the ark was not lifted from the earth those inside the ark would have perished also. It was the ark of their salvation. Being in the ark is typology for being in Christ, the Ark of our salvation. If we are not lifted up from the earth to meet the Lord in the air we will perish with everyone else.

The ark was not lifted FROM the earth! It never left the earth that was flooded by water. Do you believe ships that sail upon the seas leave the earth when they are water bound? Of course not! The ark was a type of Christ saving them BY/THROUGH water. Just as Christ is not literally an ark, neither is literal water that which saves us. We will only be caught up to meet the Lord in the air IF in life we have been saved by/through the water of His Word and Spirit before He comes again.

 

[Zao is life]

The ark was not lifted FROM the earth! It never left the earth that was flooded by water. Do you believe ships that sail upon the seas leave the earth when they are water bound? Of course not! The ark was a type of Christ saving them BY/THROUGH water. Just as Christ is not literally an ark, neither is literal water that which saves us. We will only be caught up to meet the Lord in the air IF in life we have been saved by/through the water of His Word and Spirit before He comes again.

It left the ground. The rapture will take us off the ground too. But it won't take us to heaven either. If we're in the Ark of our salvation (Jesus) we'll be taken off the ground but not to heaven - we'll meet the Lord in the air. Nothing in the scripture says "how high". Maybe as high as Noah's ark was lifted up, maybe not.

@rwb What air will be around us when we meet the Lord in the air? The same air that was around the ark.

 

[covenantee]

It's you who does not address the historical evidence that 70 A.D fulfilled Daniel 9:24-27. All of it.

There's nothing about Daniel 9:24-27 in Jesus' predictions about deceivers.

 

[Zao is life]

There's nothing about Daniel 9:24-27 in Jesus' evidence about deceivers.

The above is Jospehus' history. Not Jesus' evidence.

You're getting desperate.

 

[rwb]

It left the ground. The rapture will take us off the ground too. But it won't take us to heaven either. If we're in the Ark of our salvation (Jesus) we'll be taken off the ground but not to heaven - we'll meet the Lord in the air. Nothing in the scripture says "how high". Maybe as high as Noah's ark was lifted up, maybe not.

@rwb What air will be around us when we meet the Lord in the air? The same air that was around the ark.

The ark did NOT leave the EARTH! When we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, we shall leave this earth! I agree at that time we shall not go to heaven. I'm really not sure where in the air we shall be, but I imagine we will only be there long enough for this earth and all left alive on it to be utterly destroyed by the flames of God's wrath.