The 144,000 before God at the end.

[covenantee]

Papist?! LOL. Not even close. You’re distracting subject and attempt to labeling people.

Do what I asked or admit that you can’t gain say or resist.

You're papist.

You've identified yourself as anti-Reformation.

That's papist.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You're papist.

You've identified yourself as anti-Reformation.

That's papist.

Oh? Assumption is the mother of all errors. You do not know me at all yet falsely label me as a papist because you dont like what I wrote that refuted your preterism doctrine.

No, im sorry but I’m part of Christian Reformed Church. Sola Scriptura.

 

[covenantee]

Oh? Assumption is the mother of all errors. You do not know me at all yet falsely label me as a papist because you dont like what I wrote that refuted your preterism doctrine.

No, im sorry but I’m part of Christian Reformed Church. Sola Scriptura.

Thanks for the guffaws. An anti-Reformationist in the Christian Reformed Church.

Let's explore your heterodoxy further.

What recognized exegete in the pre-19th-century post-apostolic true Christian Church completely spiritualized Matthew 24:1,2?

 

[ewq1938]

Wow. This clearly shows that you have not really compared Scirpture with Scirpture what the stones really are? For example:

I don't have the entire bible memorized. Do you?

1Pe 2:4-10
(4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
(5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Thank you.

This means that the Old Testament congregation has to fall first,

I don't see that as needed. Peter appears to be speaking of a new building being built nothing about an old building taken down then being re-built.

which it did, at the time of Christ's death, and the rebuilding took place in 3 days where Christ is now a chief cornerstone. And the stones being added to this building in the New Testament are Christians.

Do you deny this or not?

I deny that the destruction and building of the temple Christ spoke of is anything other than his physical body. It is not the same building Peter spoke of.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


This is clearly about his being killed, then being dead for 3 days and then his resurrection which is raising of that temple-body.

 

[Timtofly]

What verse refers to Prince Neither?

The same one that refers to Messiah not being a Roman.

Messiah was/is not a Roman.

Prince to come was/is not a Roman. You know, the verse you quoted in this reply.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Thanks for the guffaws. An anti-Reformationist in the Christian Reformed Church.

You must be a very confused man who made a false assumption. Where did you get the idea that I am "anti-reformationist" from??

Let's explore your heterodoxy further.

What recognized exegete in the pre-19th-century post-apostolic true Christian Church completely spiritualized Matthew 24:1,2?

I am not going to play your distraction games here because you have avoided answering the questions I posted for you that clearly refute your preterism doctrine.

Moving on.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I don't have the entire bible memorized. Do you?

How about checking with your Bible before responding? Humm?

I don't see that as needed. Peter appears to be speaking of a new building being built nothing about an old building taken down then being re-built.

Sigh... did you check with Scripture?

Acts 15:16-17

• "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
• That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

I deny that the destruction and building of the temple Christ spoke of is anything other than his physical body. It is not the same building Peter spoke of.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


This is clearly about his being killed, then being dead for 3 days and then his resurrection which is raising of that temple-body.

Many of the Jews (and their cousins the Premillennialists and Dispensationalists today) had put all their trust in the natural/physical/temporal, and God was prophesying in the Spiritual--which isn't an anomaly since this is what Christ did throughout His ministry. Just like when the disciple's brethren, the Jews, asked Jesus for a sign. And He gave them one, even though they didn't even realize it or its significance. They missed it because they were thinking like you and many people in the church today, in terms of a literal Temple being destroyed, and Christ was responding to their question by prophesying in spiritual terms. Not one stone left standing one upon another is very specific illustrating that it is completely vanished, totally GONE! It no longer represented the Holy One of Israel. The Disciples in that episode were glorying over a building (eg: Matthew 24:1-2), and Christ is saying what it represents will be taken away completely in God's economy. His words are not ever coincidental, they are deliberate. Again, as in His promise of the sign to the Jews (which they asked for) was fulfilled, and all they could think about was a literal build--just like you and the congregation today. But whether or not men ever understand what Temple Christ was speaking of, doesn't mean that he spoke of a physical, literal, brick Temple. Because the Holy Spirit being poured out at Pentecost would eventually reveal the "real" deeper Spiritual truth of His words--to His people. For example, when Christ threw the buyers and sellers out of the Temple (G2411 - hieron)

John 2:18-21

• "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
• Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
• Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
• But he spake of the temple of his body."

That word Temple Christ used there is a different word (G3485 - naos), but it is obvious that the words are interchangeable as the Jews spoke of the physical building, declaring it took 46 years to build. And note Christ never told them that He spoke of the Temple of His body, it remained a mystery to them. But it is written by the Apostle John for us, who would come after and receive the deeper Spiritual truth of His words. True to His words, they did destroy the Temple, and Christ did raise it up in three days, and it was the sign that Jesus had the power/authority to do these things--as they had asked. A sign that many are blinded to from that day to this very day.
The temple of his body, at that time, represents His congregation, His people, the Jews, just as much as we are part of Christ' body today which has been rebuilt! NOTHING to do with a physical temple like the Jews thought that took 46 years to built.

Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

And I also add that the truth is many Jews looked upon the Gentiles as Dogs and Swine and gloried in the fact that they were the chosen seed of Abraham that could never fall from that (in their minds). Even as many in the premillennial/Dispensational/Preterism church today think the church can never fall. But the fact is, the Old Testament congregation DID fall and the New Testament congregation today is no better than the congregation was then. Because their eyes were on the temporal rather than the Spiritual, even as the Disciples were admiring the great physical buildings of the Jewish nation (Matthew 24:1-2). The Premillennial and Dispensational church today feels the very same way about the modern nation of Israel's position because their hermeneutic is almost identical in its looking at God's word only literally (John 3:4) and to some degree having great disdain for God-authored Spiritual truths. It's simply the other side of that "exact same" coin of methodology. Stones represent the people--both those who fell and those who would be raised up/ built again, when we understand the builder and maker is God. For example:

Matthew 3:9-10

• "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
• And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Yes, God was able of those stones to raise up children unto Abraham, And He Did! Not literal stones, but Spiritual ones. We, Christians, as lively stones are being added unto Abraham according to the promise! As it is written:

Galatians 3:29

• "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Nothing coincidental about the language of God raising up stones as the children of Abraham, though it may seem so to many who seem antithetical to the Spirit of truth. Nothing coincidental about stones being the building of the church, or the stones being made of wood hay and stubble, or of gold silver and precious gems "when we gracefully receive God authored Spiritual truths!" The word temple (G2411 - hieron) used by the Disciples doesn't preclude Christ from talking about a spiritual Temple any more than the word temple (G3485 - naos) that the Jews used in saying it took 46 years to build it precluded Christ from speaking of His body and not whatever building the Jews spoke of.

Those with spiritual ears, let him hear!

 

[ewq1938]

Many of the Jews (and their cousins the Premillennialists and Dispensationalists today) had put all their trust in the natural/physical/temporal

The Jewish Pharisees are most like Amills actually. The Pharisees expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't. His rule would come far into the future (not soon, not at the Cross or Ascension or Pentecost). Amillennialists make the same type of error the Pharisees did by claiming the rule over the nations is happening now and has been since the first century when the truth is the real rule comes in the future. That's Premillennialism.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Jewish Pharisees are most like Amills actually. The Pharisees expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't. His rule would come far into the future (not soon, not at the Cross or Ascension or Pentecost). Amillennialists make the same type of error the Pharisees did by claiming the rule over the nations is happening now and has been since the first century when the truth is the real rule comes in the future. That's Premillennialism.

Weak argument and poor analogy. I see that you really haven’t refuted my position with a single verse. See… the Jewish Pharisees were expecting a LITERAL KINGDOM when Christ rebuked them.

Luk 17:20-21

• And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
• Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Christ DID established His New Testament millennial Kingdom which is SPIRITUAL with Christians as lively stones of that building. Selah.

 

[ewq1938]

Weak argument and poor analogy. I see that you really haven’t refuted my position with a single verse. See… the Jewish Pharisees were expecting a LITERAL KINGDOM when Christ rebuked them.

Their error was expecting any kingdom and rule too soon, like Amill does. Premill understands there is a non-literal kingdom now. That has been true since it was first in believers but not outside of believers. A literal kingdom is coming and it will involve all kingdoms of the Earth under the rule of Christ at the 7th trump, Rev 11.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The 144,000 are OT Israelites. Revelation 7:4

OT Israelites were both Jews and Gentiles. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

God is not a racist.

Nor can He be contorted into one.

You just called his ancient covenant, which was only to the HEBREW RACE, racist.
You really bit into the wokeness scam huh?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Weak argument and poor analogy. I see that you really haven’t refuted my position with a single verse. See… the Jewish Pharisees were expecting a LITERAL KINGDOM when Christ rebuked them.

Luk 17:20-21

• And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
• Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Christ DID established His New Testament millennial Kingdom which is SPIRITUAL with Christians as lively stones of that building. Selah.

Nope
It is future, as are the flying scorpions, the mark,and the AC.
You can not prove any different

 

[rebuilder 454]

That is not what John claims in the book of Revelation. This happens after the 6th Seal is opened. Was the 6th Seal opened during the Babylonian captivity? Was the birth of Jesus the opening of the 7th Seal? Were there already Saints in heaven prior to the Cross? A multitude that could not be numbered?

The book of Revelation is about the Second Coming harvest, not a harvest that took place before Jesus was born.

Rev 14
3 harvests during the trib

 

[rebuilder 454]

Well, allow me... :) And I think at least much of what I'm going to say here you are implying in your question:

Having failed to destroy Christ (Revelation 12:4-5), the Dragon tries to destroy the people of Christ. He uses his mouth, representing his deceit (Revelation 12:15, 9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10). When deceit fails, he tries persecuting power (Revelation 12:17-13:10). The woman flies to the desert, an image that speaks of the powerful and supernatural care of God active on behalf of his people. His people experience powerful protection even in circumstances where it may seem impossible that they would be delivered. “For nothing is impossible with God” (Luke 1:37). By speaking of the desert and the period of three and a half years, God looks after the woman for 1260 days (Revelation 12:6), the same period of 42 months or three and a half years mentioned in Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:14, and Revelation 13:5. The 1260 days is the entire interadvent period. It begins immediately after Christ’s ascension. It continues throughout the period of Satanic assaults on the church, that is, the whole period until the Second Coming. During the entire period, God protects the church from satanic attacks. But the vision also applies with particular force to times of intense distress that may come when the church suffers violent attack. The protection comes in the desert. Israel after the exodus from Egypt wandered in the desert. This desert gave them relief from the idolatry and oppression of Egypt. But it was also a time of testing, and they were tempted (not by God, of course, Who does not tempt) to lose faith and rebel. They were to look forward to rest and satisfaction in the promised land. Similarly, the church looks forward to final rest in the new heavens and the new earth. But for now she is subject to testing on earth. Regarding a flood in Revelation 12, there is no flood, but the threat of one, but the earth comes to the help of the woman... the earth "open(s) its mouth and swallow(s) the river ~ actually lies, deception ~ that the dragon had poured from his mouth. The very structure of God’s created world restricts and frustrates Satan’s plans. Since Satan cannot wipe out the church as a whole through his deceit, he tries another plan: to war against the rest of her offspring. 13:1-18 exposes the character of this war, indicating that it involves raising up earthly instruments of persecution.

:)

Grace and peace to all.

No
It says who those that satan pursues are.
Jews.
Not gentile believers

 

[rebuilder 454]

Have you no ability to reason/think? What do you think "FAITHFUL JEWS" means? These 144,000 of Old are JEWS WHO BELIEVED MESSIAH WOULD COME...hench that makes them Messianic believers who were Jews. Messianic means Messiah! It doesn't matter what ethnic nation one is from, IN CHRIST there is neither Jew nor Gentile!

lol
Paul describes himself as a jewish believer.
It can not be erased

 

[rebuilder 454]

EXACTLY! Lifted up above the earth on the water that was still on the earth! It does not say it (ark & water) was lifted up OFF the earth!

Genesis 7:18-23 (KJV) And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Genesis 7:24 (KJV) And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Indeed, we are greatly indebted to Scripture, especially when understood in CONTEXT!

Nice try.
I will go with the facts.
The ark was in the sky.
Pssssst, the clouds.
But you omitted it until i challenged your omission

Now you simply can not admit it.
Wow
And no red flags

You are debunked thoroughly.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Well I can only go by what you actually post. You claimed glory was the end of the trip in this symbolic ark going through the tribulation. If glory is not heaven, then you just seem to keep your own beliefs cloaked in mystery, while disagreeing with parts of what other posters post.

I don't even know what you mean by post tribulation believer, as if believer is something different that the rapture.

Even some pre-trib rapture adherents claim the 144k are not the church, and do not go through the tribulation, because they still are not correct about the tribulation. The Seals are not the tribulation. The first 6 Trumpets are the tribulation, called Jacob's trouble, and the 144k are from Jacob who are on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. They are sealed to withstand this time of judgment, because they have a job to do on the earth like the original 12 had along side of Jesus as Messiah during the first coming. There is not 144k names listed because obviously that would give away the thief in the night moment. When 144k with those names were born, then that would be a fulfilled prophecy. But to just dismiss that 1200 were sealed from each tribe of Jacob as just mere symbolism is missing the point made in Scripture about the time of Jacob's trouble.

John is not arguing the doctrine of soteriology. He actually witnessed these humans still alive on earth being sealed by an angel. And it was after the 6th Seal was already opened. This sealing was in preparation for the sounding of the Trumpets.

If you think you need to invoke the human theological argument of parallelism. That is adding to the book of Revelation. John never pointed out to read his writings as a series of parallels. So why should we? To do so misses many points from throughout Scripture, that then have to be changed to not contradict themselves.

rev 14
Messianic jews in 2 harvests DURING the trib

 

[rebuilder 454]

That's the problem, Timtofly. You don't go by what I post. The only question, then, really, is whether you actually ~ mistakenly ~ think you do, or you're purposely changing what I post into something it's not.


No, I did not. I would never do such a thing.


LOL! Wow. There are different views regarding the tribulation and when it is... what time period it covers.


Sure. That's not me; I am neither a pre-trib rapture adherent, nor do I believe that believers do not go through the tribulation.


Agreed.


Ugh. :)


In... your opinion.

Can you just not stop, Timtofly? Are you just not able to say, "You know, yeah, let's stop." Can you just not do that?


And he never pointed out otherwise, either. But still, it is what it is. Among other things, you are reading it at the exclusion of the rest of Scripture. I'm quite sure you will deny that. Again, it is what it is.


Opinions are like noses; everybody has one (or a thousand). :)

Grace and peace to you.

all take the mark.All believers take it or get martyred.
That is a fact.
No believers go through the trib except the 144k, and then main harvest jews.
It is Jacobs trouble. Not gentile trouble.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No sir. Jesus uses the story of Noah to show the Church is sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood, just as the Church will be in the ark of heaven 6 years before destruction.

The story of Lot is the second harvest. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came, even as the very year the 12 tribes are raptured destruction will come. The wrath of God is one year.


Agreed. The story of Noah represents the pre trib rapture.


No you are misunderstanding what I am saying because you are not understanding the the tribulation of those days is over at the 6th seal. There is no midtrib rapture.

BTW, when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
All from mat 24 nothing of a 6 day parenthesis.

Now luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luke 17
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

In luke and mat, the "one taken...left" is used for noah and lot.
Not only that, but luke has the 2 analogies TOGETHER.
They are in fact one and the same timing.