'No Immortal Soul'? (Challenge)

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Big Boy Johnson

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How do people get past : Jesus said there is a resurrection of life and resurrection of condemnation. What is being resurrected?

We ALL shall be resurrected in the end... spirit, soul, and physical body.

Some will be resurrected to live with the Lord and their bodies shall be glorified like Jesus' Body is right now.

Most will be resurrected to spend eternity being tormented in hell because... satan was their spiritual father and they get the same reward the devil gets because they belong to him.
 
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MatthewG

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No... there is no scripture that says it's been done away with.

Now satan may twist a scripture to try and deceive some on to believing it's been done away with... but that's just a lie of the devil

I dont believe Satan is around either, sorry man I just put forth what I believe and don't have to really worry if you disagree or not. I love you and hope you the best in your life always, along with everyone else here. I been set in my ways for about 3 years now, since 8 years of having turned to Yeshua. God is good, is great, wonderful. God of above all gods, and Lord above all Lords. I believe Jesus has had the victory today, though most people do not. I believe that Yeshua had victory over death, spiritual death, Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and sin, and reconciled the world back unto himself.
 

MatthewG

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We ALL shall be resurrected in the end... spirit, soul, and physical body.

Some will be resurrected to live with the Lord and their bodies shall be glorified like Jesus' Body is right now.

Most will be resurrected to spend eternity being tormented in hell because... satan was their spiritual father and they get the same reward the devil gets because they belong to him.

I disagree with receiving a physical body, but there is also "no eye has seen, no ear has heard, what God has prepared for those who love him" I do believe in a spiritual body, that is built up while going on in through this life following after Yeshua. I could be wrong, but that is alright with me personally. :)
 

Augustin56

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Our souls will, indeed go on. Without going into the spiritual/biblical reasons why we believe our souls continue after bodily death, we can also look to the medical communities that have done NDE (Near Death Experience) studies. There have been thousands of people who have clinically died (no EKG (heart beat), no EEG (brainwave), no breathing, no gag reflex, pupils fixed and dilated), who have come back. This has happened all over the globe to people of different races, ethics, religions (including atheists), etc. And they report a similar set of experiences. They die, they come out of their body and see their body, they float around a little bit, having full vision and hearing, and then go through a dark tunnel towards a light. When they get to the other side and meet Jesus, an angel, a deceased relative, etc., and see heaven, experience a degree of love they could never have imagined, etc. Then, they are either given a choice to stay or go back, or told they must go back because it isn't their time and they still have work to do in this life. Some of the more interesting cases have been people born blind from birth, reporting being able to see, in full color, in a referential way. (They don't know the names of the colors at this point.) They might say, "The doctor's coat was the same color as the nurse's eyes." (Blue)

Here's a good article on it: The Definitive Guide to Near-Death Experiences
 
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MatthewG

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Our souls will, indeed go on. Without going into the spiritual/biblical reasons why we believe our souls continue after bodily death, we can also look to the medical communities that have done NDE (Near Death Experience) studies. There have been thousands of people who have clinically died (no EKG (heart beat), no EEG (brainwave), no breathing, no gag reflex, pupils fixed and dilated), who have come back. This has happened all over the globe to people of different races, ethics, religions (including atheists), etc. And they report a similar set of experiences. They die, they come out of their body and see their body, they float around a little bit, having full vision and hearing, and then go through a dark tunnel towards a light. When they get to the other side and meet Jesus, an angel, a deceased relative, etc., and see heaven, experience a degree of love they could never have imagined, etc. Then, they are either given a choice to stay or go back, or told they must go back because it isn't their time and they still have work to do in this life. Some of the more interesting cases have been people born blind from birth, reporting being able to see, in full color, in a referential way. (They don't know the names of the colors at this point.) They might say, "The doctor's coat was the same color as the nurse's eyes." (Blue)

Here's a good article on it: The Definitive Guide to Near-Death Experiences

Thank you for sharing this, have heard of reports like this before, and perhaps there is some merit to it. I never had someone nearly die in my life, or or nearly die myself.

What you believe does not change what God has said in His Word.



What you believe does not change what God has said in His Word.

And also good to remember that the Bible is not God, nor does it hold any authority above God (Yahava.) It is useful, if it is used correctly.
 

rwb

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The discussion will naturally venture into the quiddity of the soul. What is it? And why do you think it must "go on." We all know that the body doesn't survive. Why do we believe that the soul does?

No, the body does not survive, it returns to the dust from which it came. But eternal life survives physical death through the eternal spirit we have by grace through faith when we are born again. Where Scripture speaks of the existence of 'souls', the expectation is that we understand that even death cannot separate us from God, because the spirit of man with the Spirit from Christ is eternal and can never die. In physical life mankind has outwardly a body of flesh and bone, and inwardly a breath of life (spirit) and the two became a "living soul." In physical death believers don't cease being a living soul, it is only our body of flesh that becomes a corpse, because after physical death we continue to be living souls in heaven, a spiritual body of believers without the outward shell. Wherever there is life, there is a 'living soul.'

The question for mankind is, will our spirit return to God who gave it as a spirit soul, or will it return to God in silence and darkness? The answer of course depends upon whether in life we are born again.
 

rwb

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Go and read the account of the creation of Man; it is clear Adam became a living soul, he did not receive a soul.

Yes, this is exactly how God tells us man was created. The confusion comes because instead of saying He created man with a body and a spirit and he/she became a living soul, God says He created a body and breathed the breath of life into him and he became a living soul. People read "breath of life" as though it was merely God's breathing into them physical life. But when we research the word defined 'spirit', we find it speaks either of the Holy Spirit or spiritual minded. In the beginning man's mind/spirit was spiritually created. IOW at creation man had the spiritual ability/mind to commune with God before he disobeyed God and committed sin which brought death into God's creation. That is what died in mankind on "that" very day. His spiritual mind became of the earth, natural, carnal and no longer has the ability to be in relationship with God. That's why mankind MUST be born again of the Spirit, spiritual re-birth to know and enter the Kingdom of God.

Man was not created a three part being. Mankind is created with spirit, that is since the fall carnal, spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, and a body of flesh & bone, and the TWO PARTS together became a "living soul." Where 'soul' is used it Scripture it means to possess life, either physical life or spirit life.
 

rwb

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How do people get past : Jesus said there is a resurrection of life and resurrection of condemnation. What is being resurrected? Is it your body, or is it your soul, perhaps that is a better question for some if they do not even know for sure.

I believe it is our soul, but some differ. People also continue to believe that people are going directly straight in to hell today, which is fine if you believe that, however I do not believe that is the case today, as those who promote such a fate do.

That which is resurrected is our physical body. The body dies because our body does not in this world possess immortal & incorruptible life (souls). The body of believers resurrected in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds shall then be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible life (souls). Where there is life there is a soul.

Just because our body is not now immortal soul/life, does not mean that those of faith altogether cease. Because in this life the spirit in man that has been born again is ETERNAL, not immortal. In physical death our eternal spirit returns to God a living spirit/soul. Because where there is life there is a soul.
 

PinSeeker

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"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (Jesus, John 5:28-29).

And the Greek for the English 'to destroy,' as used by Jesus in Matthew 10:28 ~ "fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" ~ does not denote annihilation, but rather the causing of complete ruination and permanent hopelessness regarding relief or redemption. Even in the temporal sense, one can be destroyed in the sense of being reduced to a state of complete and utter helplessness and hopelessness and completely unable prosper - but still very much conscious and sentient. And we see this reality for the fictional dead rich man in Jesus's frightening (to say the least) parable in Luke 16.

Grace and peace to all.
 

Aunty Jane

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Not for those that believe God's Word...

The carnal mind cannot understand the spiritual things of God spoken of in His Word.

Trying to apply the wisdom of man to God's Word never produces good understanding
That is a cop out....the carnal mind is what we were created with....we are carnal beings, like it or not.
Sin is the thing that gets in the way. And the devil knows how to mislead sinful humans....he gives them what they want, rather than have them change to accept what God wants.

As far as understanding his word, it is God who provides us with the correct understanding....so how is it that there is so much dissension among professed “Christians”?

John 6:44, 65....Jesus said....
“No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him. . . . . This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

No one can come to the Father except through Jesus.....but no one can come to Jesus without an invitation from his Father....it is the Father who “draws” right hearted ones to his truth, not theirs. It won’t matter what we accept as the truth, if it is not from God, then the only other person who wants our worship is satan. And he masquerades as “an angel of light”....the ultimate deceiver.

2 Cor 11:13-14....speaking of those who were working as agents of the devil in disguise.....Paul said....
“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.”

Can we identify these “ministers of righteousness” who are anything but what they claim to be?

Jesus said to look at their works and see if they are Christ-like in their behaviour. (Matt 7:16-19) If they promote false religious beliefs adopted many centuries ago, or if they have blood on their hands because of supporting the rulers of this world in their many conflicts, then neither God nor his Christ are among them. (John 17:16; Isaiah 1:15; 1 John 5:19) If you are part of this world, you do not belong to Christ. He will say at the judgment...”I never knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness”. (Matt 7:21-23)
You cannot have a foot in both camps.

So unless we are “drawn” by the Father, we will never know the truth about anything.....satan will have us happily travelling the wrong road. (Matt 7:13-14) That is why “few” are on the cramped and narrow path to life......
 

Aunty Jane

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Our souls will, indeed go on. Without going into the spiritual/biblical reasons why we believe our souls continue after bodily death, we can also look to the medical communities that have done NDE (Near Death Experience) studies. There have been thousands of people who have clinically died (no EKG (heart beat), no EEG (brainwave), no breathing, no gag reflex, pupils fixed and dilated), who have come back. This has happened all over the globe to people of different races, ethics, religions (including atheists), etc. And they report a similar set of experiences. They die, they come out of their body and see their body, they float around a little bit, having full vision and hearing, and then go through a dark tunnel towards a light. When they get to the other side and meet Jesus, an angel, a deceased relative, etc., and see heaven, experience a degree of love they could never have imagined, etc. Then, they are either given a choice to stay or go back, or told they must go back because it isn't their time and they still have work to do in this life. Some of the more interesting cases have been people born blind from birth, reporting being able to see, in full color, in a referential way. (They don't know the names of the colors at this point.) They might say, "The doctor's coat was the same color as the nurse's eyes." (Blue)

Here's a good article on it: The Definitive Guide to Near-Death Experiences
“Near death experiences”?......they are not “after death” experiences.
The medical profession has ascertained that the dying, oxygen deprived brain releases chemicals that can cause delusions. Since the Bible never mentions immortal souls, or life after death.....what is the story then?

When the devil senses that a human is at their most vulnerable, he will use any excuse to infiltrate their weakened thinking. What seems to be strange indeed is that all such experiences are similar regardless of the religious beliefs of the individual. Since God is the one who rejects false religion and punished his people if they adopted false beliefs, how is it that all these different people of different religions experience something in accord with their own beliefs? Would that be from God? Why s there a light that people are drawn to? Satan disguises himself as “an angel of light”. He is a deceiver. (2 Cor 11: 13-14)

Do we really know what power the devil has? Do we understand that he targets the weak, and if that person is also weak in faith, or has the wrong religious beliefs, that he would be especially interested in them?
He has an agenda....and that is to promote his first lie. He told the woman that she “surely will not die”, when God told them that they would. Who was the liar?

There was never any afterlife mentioned to Adam and his wife, nor were the Jews told in their scripture to expect life after death, except by resurrection. No Jew was given belief in an afterlife from God’s word. That was adopted later from platonic Greek ideas that influenced the faithless Jews and later Christians to accept that man had an “immortal soul”.....a conscious, spiritual part of themselves that exited the body at death....but that is NOT a Bible teaching. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10; Psalm 146:4) The dead cannot think or plan or engage in any activity. Even their emotions have “perished”. Why would “love” die with the body?

A resurrection is a return to life....not a continuation of it.
 

face2face

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That is a cop out....the carnal mind is what we were created with....we are carnal beings, like it or not.
Sin is the thing that gets in the way. And the devil knows how to mislead sinful humans....he gives them what they want, rather than have them change to accept what God wants.
How can you define the carnality of the mind and body only to shift temptation to an imaginary creature? I mean where is the logic in that? Let alone the Scriptural evidence!

"But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire" James 1:14

Your theology is such a cop-out

F2F
 

face2face

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When the devil senses that a human is at their most vulnerable, he will use any excuse to infiltrate their weakened thinking.
Where do you get this stuff Jane?

For someone who berates others in the forum about providing supporting Scripture... every time you talk about this imaginary being, it is "always" lacking evidence! It's as though you have deceived yourself to the point your own exegetical standard is thrown out the window. This is hypocrisy Jane, hypocrisy!

Now I know you have me on ignore because you don't like it when people make you accountable, I get that, but others reading this need to question the validity of your claims and seek the same evidence to prove your deception.

It's not the Gospel according to Aunty Jane!

F2F
 

Taken

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I believe hell has been done away with according to Revelation. Have you considered another possibility?

Revelations is a recap, and Future expectation:
Of Gods Tribulations upon the Earth;
Of Satan’s Reigning, Killing, all who reject him.
Of Gods Saving of Faithful Israel;
Of God Saving of Gentiles choosing Him;
Of JC separating, mortals with/without Him;
Of Satan’s/devils 1,000 yr banishment to hell.
Of JC 1,000 yr reign.
Of mortals establishing nations.
Of mortals Believing following JC.
Of 1,000 yrs ending.
Of Satan/devils released from hell.
Of Satan/devils convincing mortal nations to attack JC Kingdom (ie Promised Land, throne in Jerusalem).
OF All Nations coming Against JC and His glorified People.
OF war battle, mortals against JC two edged sword, they die by Jesus (WORD) Christ (POWER).
Of war battle, in air, between Holy Spirit Angels and Demonic angels.
Of demonic angels defeat.
Of demonic angels cast to the lowest part, of the earth, Lake of Fire, never again released.
Of Judgement of ALL men (body’s) (sou’s) (spirit of man).
Of Sentencing per Judgements.
Of giving of Rewards for Works that Glorified God.
Of burning All works that did not Glorify God.
Of new Heavens.
Of new Earth.
Of new Jerusalem.
Of fulfilling Gods Promises.
Of PERFECTION, Holy Lord God, Holy Land, Holy Men together forever WITH their God.
Of the Tree of Life for man to eat and sustain his life forever.

Hell still exists.
Men still bodily die rejecting the Lord God, their living souls depart their body, and are sent to hell, separated from God, and remain there until no more mortals exist, and judgement and sentencing is accomplished.

THEN is Hell, (where unsaved living souls have been sent, will be sent) is swallowed up in Victory, no longer necessary for MENS un-saved SOULS.

This is a brief, you can read, study, believe or not. We spent a daily study for 8 months on Revelations alone, and how I came to the conclusion as briefly posted here.

God Bless you,
Taken
 

face2face

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Satan disguises himself as “an angel of light”. He is a deceiver. (2 Cor 11: 13-14)
Hold on Jane!

The adversary in that passage is clearly defined and NOT a rebel angel but rebel Jewish adversaries who were undermining the apostle Paul's influence in the Corinthian church. If you actually read the context of the letter and flipped a page back to chapter 10 you would know this!

2 I beg of you that when I am present I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against some who suspect us of walking according to the flesh. 2 Co 10:2–3.

An angel is a divine being and cannot walk according to the flesh!

10 For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account.” 11 Let such a person understand that what we say by letter when absent, we do when present. 12 Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding. 13 But we will not boast beyond limits, but will boast only with regard to the area of influence God assigned to us, to reach even to you. 14 For we are not overextending ourselves, as though we did not reach you. For we were the first to come all the way to you with the gospel of Christ. 15 We do not boast beyond limit in the labors of others. But our hope is that as your faith increases, our area of influence among you may be greatly enlarged, 16 so that we may preach the gospel in lands beyond you, without boasting of work already done in another’s area of influence. 17 “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” 18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends. 2 Co 10:10–18.

Also 2 Cor 11:3-26

As Paul said: "for such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder for even Satan {the chief leader} disguises himself as an angel of light.

So it is not strange if his servants {misguided supporters} also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness."

The same Satan is referred to in 2 Cor. 2:11: "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

Again, you only show everyone in this forum that you know not the meaning of the word satan and how its applied to Paul's writings.

F2F
 

MatthewG

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Revelations is a recap, and Future expectation:
Of Gods Tribulations upon the Earth;
Of Satan’s Reigning, Killing, all who reject him.
Of Gods Saving of Faithful Israel;
Of God Saving of Gentiles choosing Him;
Of JC separating, mortals with/without Him;
Of Satan’s/devils 1,000 yr banishment to hell.
Of JC 1,000 yr reign.
Of mortals establishing nations.
Of mortals Believing following JC.
Of 1,000 yrs ending.
Of Satan/devils released from hell.
Of Satan/devils convincing mortal nations to attack JC Kingdom (ie Promised Land, throne in Jerusalem).
OF All Nations coming Against JC and His glorified People.
OF war battle, mortals against JC two edged sword, they die by Jesus (WORD) Christ (POWER).
Of war battle, in air, between Holy Spirit Angels and Demonic angels.
Of demonic angels defeat.
Of demonic angels cast to the lowest part, of the earth, Lake of Fire, never again released.
Of Judgement of ALL men (body’s) (sou’s) (spirit of man).
Of Sentencing per Judgements.
Of giving of Rewards for Works that Glorified God.
Of burning All works that did not Glorify God.
Of new Heavens.
Of new Earth.
Of new Jerusalem.
Of fulfilling Gods Promises.
Of PERFECTION, Holy Lord God, Holy Land, Holy Men together forever WITH their God.
Of the Tree of Life for man to eat and sustain his life forever.

Hell still exists.
Men still bodily die rejecting the Lord God, their living souls depart their body, and are sent to hell, separated from God, and remain there until no more mortals exist, and judgement and sentencing is accomplished.

THEN is Hell, (where unsaved living souls have been sent, will be sent) is swallowed up in Victory, no longer necessary for MENS un-saved SOULS.

This is a brief, you can read, study, believe or not. We spent a daily study for 8 months on Revelations alone, and how I came to the conclusion as briefly posted here.

God Bless you,
Taken
Lot to take - in. Taken.
 

MatthewG

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That which is resurrected is our physical body. The body dies because our body does not in this world possess immortal & incorruptible life (souls). The body of believers resurrected in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds shall then be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible life (souls). Where there is life there is a soul.

Just because our body is not now immortal soul/life, does not mean that those of faith altogether cease. Because in this life the spirit in man that has been born again is ETERNAL, not immortal. In physical death our eternal spirit returns to God a living spirit/soul. Because where there is life there

I get Jesus having to be resurrected to be seen, but idk so much about our own. Paul talks about a spiritual body. Anyway, you have to just believe what you will. I actually do not care if I have a physical body or not personally.
 

Taken

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Lot to take - in. Taken.

Yes it is. However the study thereof reveals Hell is still active. And as long as there are morals, Hell will be where unsaved souls are sent, waiting for judgement.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

MatthewG

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Yes it is. However the study thereof reveals Hell is still active. And as long as there are morals, Hell will be where unsaved souls are sent, waiting for judgement.

Glory to God,
Taken

I disagree, but you are free to continue to believe how you will. I don't just accept what people may say I need to believe when it comes to the bible, I have to make a personal choice to what is seen with-in it. It will be very hard to get me to believe that something is still active; when having faith Jesus overcame and all things were placed underneath his feet, and surely you understand that, as part of the encounter team on this website.