NEWSFLASH: Abraham was not a Jew. Neither was Isaac. Neither was Jacob.

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Randy Kluth

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IMO your huge doctrinal error is to see Israel as "they", where your "they" means "the Jews".
Israel does not equate with "the Jews".​
I believe "the Jews" is synonymous with "Israel." That is not a "doctrinal error." That is common language, as well as biblical language. Paul used them synonymously in Rom 9-11 where he described the hope of the Jews, or the hope of Israel.

The mercy you speak about has been available to ALL Jews and to ALL Gentiles ever since the Deliverer came out of Zion, turning away ungodliness from Jacob, and taking away their (and our) sins.

The mercy you speak about has ALWAYS been available to ALL Jews and to EVERY Jew IF he repents of his sins and turns to faith in Christ (Romans 11:23).​
I've not said otherwise. I don't know why you think this point has any relevance in what I said? Christ brought mercy that transcends the failure of the Law. Therefore, the Jews, who broke the Law, can receive mercy. To deny the Jewish People can experience a restored covenant relationship with Christ is to deny the Gospel. To say that an entire nation cannot become a Christian nation is to deny history, in which many nations have converted to Christianity. It seems that for you, only Israel cannot convert to Christianity?

But the the only group that will ever be called Israel is in Christ through faith in Christ, who is the seed promised to Abraham through whom all nations of the earth are blessed - and ever since the death and resurrection of Christ, Israel is become a catholic (universal) group made of of individual "living stones".
This constitutes a *redefinition* of the word "Israel," which is why your detractors call this belief "Replacement Theology." The term is not really necessary, because its meaning is bickered over, but the truth remains. Those who hold to your position essentially redefine "Israel" to mean something other than the Jewish Nation if they then reapply the term to the universal Church. A single ethnicity and nationality is not synonymous with a multiple ethnicity and multiple nationality. This kind of "spiritualization" of a word is thought to be in Scripture, but I don't find it to be so. I don't find the term to be used this way as a "metaphor" at all! It literally refers to the Jewish People.

There is no such thing as "National Salvation" for any nation.
I refer to "political salvation" of a nation. It happens when a nation turns to God for deliverance from its enemies. You cannot deny that this happened in OT history! It's therefore real the way I define it. It's very biblical. Read Deut 28-30.

I believe you are wrong if you believe that just because the majority of individuals in a nation claim to believe in Christ, or because a time came when Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman Empire or of nations|countries, means that "countries A-M are saved nations (nationally saved) but countries N-Z are not saved, and countries N-Z includes the country that the Jews call Israel"
Again, I'm referring to political organization and deliverance from those who wish to destroy nations. Christian countries have clearly been delivered from conquering nations. The religious element is concerned with God looking favorably upon the people as a whole, rather than judging the entire people by how committed they all are over a long stretch of time.
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The above is indeed what is implied by what you are saying regarding national salvation.

The only Israel in Christ is catholic (universal - made up of individuals from many nations, tribes and tongues) - and it includes many Jews.*

*
In the days before the exile of Israel's ten Northern tribes in 725 B.C, the only Israel that existed was made up of twelve tribes, and it included the tribe of Judah.

IMO the longer you falsely equate the name "Israel" with "the Jews", and the longer you believe in the possibility of a group salvation instead of individuals in Christ making up the group of living stones in Christ which is a catholic group,
Since you show no understanding of how I use the term "political salvation" of a nation, it is senseless to continue. Get back with me when you recognize this most important point I'm making? There are *many examples* of Israel's deliverance from hostile nations in the OT record, and it occurred when there were varying degrees of spiritual commitment and repentance. For example, in the time of the judges, people crying out to the Lord for deliverance was enough for God to raise up a judge for their deliverance.

the longer you will believe in a false covenant that has never existed.​
The promises God made to Abraham were *not* a "false covenant."

The promise to Abraham was always about Christ and the fact that in Him all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Through Him Abraham became the father of many nations, which was God's first promise to Abraham. The promise to Abraham was never about an ethnic group descended from the tribe of Judah, but about ONE MAN descended from the tribe of Judah, i.e Jesus.​
You are completely and obviously wrong. Why did you omit God's promise to Abraham concerning the "ethnic group" Israel? God didn't just promise Christ would come from the Jewish People. He promised Abraham a *nation* of Jews!
 
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Jack

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I have given loads of scripture in this thread that support everything I've said. You haven't given much scripture at all, and when you express any opinion about Israel, all your opinions contradict scripture.
Israel is mentioned over 2500 times in the Bible. How many times are you mentioned?
You don't worship the God of the Olive tree and His Son. Instead you have turned your back on the Olive tree and its branches to hold up the dead broken off branches that were lying on the ground, calling them Israel, full of awe and wonder and amazement at how beautiful your "Israel" is.
God of the Olive tree? lol You're right. I worship Jesus the God of Israel.
 

Jack

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It has not happened yet. Gog of the land of Magog will come against them at the close of the millennium, which follows the return of Christ.

Read your Bible so that you can begin to believe it. It's the Word of God. It will not include any Jewish or Gentile unbelievers. Because the inheritance is Christ's and those who are in Christ through their faith in Him. The multitude of nations whose patriarch is Abraham - not your dead broken off branches.​
You don't have a map??? It's called Israel, the Land of the Bible, Capital Jerusalem.
 

Jack

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The land allotted by God to the Jews is called Judah, not Israel. The Romans called it Judea. Most of it is situated in the West Bank, a.k.a "Palestine" and the United Nations did not give it to the Jews, but the Jews have been settling in it "illegally", which has been helping to fuel the flames of international hatred for the Jews

Do you need a map?​
Matthew 2
20 saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child's life are dead."
 

Jack

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Israel has not ceased to exist since Jaocb fathered 12 sons, one of whom was named Judah. How can Israel be back? Back from what?
You're not paying attention. Israel is back to stay!

Amos 9
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.
 

Zao is life

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You don't have a map??? It's called Israel, the Land of the Bible, Capital Jerusalem.
In the Old Testament Israel's capital was not Jerusalem. It was Samaria. The capital of Judah - today called the West Bank or "Palestine" was Jerusalem.

You are very ignorant of scripture.
 

Jack

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In the Old Testament Israel's capital was not Jerusalem. It was Samaria. The capital of Judah - today called the West Bank or "Palestine" was Jerusalem.

You are very ignorant of scripture.
Sit back and watch God fight for Israel. Ever hear of the 1967 war where God fought for Israel? Ever hear of Jerusalem Day?
 

Zao is life

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Matthew 2
20 saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child's life are dead."
The family never dwelt in Judah. They dwelt in Nazareth, which was never part of Judea.

You really are ignorant of scripture, and regions.
 

Zao is life

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Sit back and watch God fight for Israel. Ever hear of the 1967 war where God fought for Israel? Ever hear of Jerusalem Day?
I hope God does fight for the Jews.

When He fights for Israel, He'll be fighting for a catholic group comprised of all nations, tribes and tongues, which will happen when Jesus comes back - after WE have gone through (the) great tribulation at the hands of the beast.

You really are ignorant of the scriptures, aren't you?
 

Jack

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I hope God does fight for the Jews.

When He fights for Israel, He'll be fighting for a catholic group comprised of all nations, tribes and tongues, which will happen when Jesus comes back - after WE have gone through (the) great tribulation at the hands of the beast.

You really are ignorant of the scriptures, aren't you?
You're just filled with insults. Do you even know where Jesus will return? It's called Israel! Ever heard of Israel?
 

Randy Kluth

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You're not paying attention. Israel is back to stay!

Amos 9
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.
This Scripture, and others like it, may be why Jews say, "Never again!" Just like they reject a 2nd Holocaust they reject anything less than a completely restored land for the Jewish People, never more to be uprooted and never more to be abused and persecuted by unbelievers.

When God promised Abraham the nation of Israel, He made it a reliable, lasting promise. Even though Israel has at times been sent out of their land, they were always given a way back. And it was promised them that one day they would return, "never more" to be cast out.
 
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Zao is life

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None of this means that the nation cannot be restored, which it has, and then accept Christ as a people.
The trouble with all this theology of yours is that Israel does not need to be restored, because Israel is in Christ and it never went away after His death and resurrection. There was a remnant left, and so Israel continued. Israel did not continue in the land, but it did not depart and disappear from the earth either, because Israel is in Christ.

The second problem with this theology of yours is that for the last 2,000 years any Jew who repents of his unbelief is restored to Israel again (Romans 11:23-33), ever since Christ the Deliverer came out of Zion and took away their (and our sins), and so the salvation of the Jews - and Gentiles grafted into the Olive tree, who together (Jews and Gentiles in Christ) are Israel - has been ongoing for the last 2,000 years, just as it has been for Gentiles.

It will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and Christ comes back.

You have built your interpretation of the great tribulation in Matthew 24 around the same false assumption regarding when and how those of the Jews who are broken off from Israel, are restored.

If they are not restored before Jesus comes back, whether Jew or Gentile, chances are they never will be.
 
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Zao is life

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Guess where Jesus will return. It's called Israel! Why does that upset you so much?
It doesn't upset me? I believe He will set His feet on the Mount of Olives.

PS: It's not in Nazareth in the region of Galilee which was part of the Northern kingdom of Israel at one time. It's in Jerusalem in the region of Judah/Judea.
 
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Jack

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