NEWSFLASH: Abraham was not a Jew. Neither was Isaac. Neither was Jacob.

[Zao is life]

It can be said, generally, that Israel, ie the Jews, presently reject Jesus. But it cannot be said that Israel completely and forever rejects him. There is always a believing remnant among the Jews, and many, including me, believe that Israel will in the future accept Jesus as their Messiah. It's fitting that those whose Messiah he is eventually accept him for who he is!

Israel has never rejected Jesus. Most Jews did in the first century, and the same phenomenon has continued to this day.

But thanks to the remnant who did not reject Jesus, Israel continued, because Israel is in Christ and has been since Jesus died and rose again.

The inability to distinguish between the elect nation called Israel and the Jews is your fallacy.

 

[Timtofly]

Now you're getting there. And those in Christ are made up of individuals from all nations, tribes and tongues. It's not one nation, but many. Abraham has become the father of many nations, a.k.a Israel.​

To you the term Israel equals Jesus Christ. I will never "get there". The name was given to Jacob. Jacob is not Jesus Christ.

Israel is a specific nation in Christ. Nations are not in Israel. Nations, including Israel are in Christ.

Israel is made of many nations, tribes and tongues in Christ through faith in Christ.

Abraham has not become Israel. This thread started on the basis that Abraham was not a Jew nor Israelite. Jews are just one tribe of Israel. Abraham was always the father of many nations, even before he physically died. What has finally happened is the last few generations to be descended from Abraham has been realized.

That is why the church is not Israel. Israel is just one nation in the church.

And to be clear, those of Israel are not natural branches any more. They have to be grafted in like every other human.

Paul claimed they were cut off because of unbelief, which is true. They were also no longer natural branches, because Jesus Christ did come in the form of humanity, and was no longer a future fulfillment, Israel looked for by faith.

I am not even arguing that Israel ceased to be a nation. They certainly no longer had a home, but spread out among all nations. I even pointed out that happened around 720BC. That was 8 centuries before Paul even wrote Romans. Certainly Paul thought Israel was still a nation, and not just in the form of the body of Christ.

One is free to believe what ever they want. If one thinks there are two Israels, God will not send them to the LOF. They will just be wrong in their definitions. People seem to define things their way all the time. It is just language, and not an unchangeable law of physics. Ethnicity is not even fixed on genetic descendants:

"the quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent."

For almost two millennia the church has been known as Christianity. Is Christianity an ethnicity? I don't think so, because one cannot be physically born into Christianity. Personally, Christianity is not even a religion. Those in Christ have a personal individual relationship with God. Islam on the other hand like all religions is an ethnicity. Judaism would be a religious ethnicity. But Israel as a nation is not Judaism. Some even think it would be hard to find an Israelite today. Elijah thought the same thing when Israel was an actual literal nation with a homeland. Even Paul pointed that out in Romans. God declares that there will still be Israelites at the Second Coming. And no one really has to symbolize all these facts away to make God look good.

Surprisingly there are still Assyrians alive in Australia, and Assyria existed at the same time and was nearly wiped out like Israel.

The church is a nation in her own right, and as you say is made up of all nations and tribes, because the church was to grow from small local groups outward, not from a central location to take over the world by force.

 

[BlessedPeace]

The tribe of Judah was not cut off.

Ten Lost Tribes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Zao is life]

To you the term Israel equals Jesus Christ. I will never "get there". The name was given to Jacob. Jacob is not Jesus Christ.

When you start your post with a false accusation based on your own false assumption it does not make me want to read the rest of what you say.

Not to me, but to God, Israel = the elect nation and the elect nation is in Christ through faith in Christ.

I won't read the rest of your post. Because I repeatedly made it clear what I just said above.

 

[Zao is life]

The tribe of Judah was not cut off.

Ten Lost Tribes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The tribe of Judah will never be cut off because since the first century THEY are the remnant of the natural seed who kept Israel going.

What's your point?

Your point is that the majority who reject Jesus are not cut off either, I suppose.

What qualifies someone for being part of the elect nation which is in Christ and has been since He came?

@BlessedPeace Another question: Jesus is God's chosen One, the seed of promise, and He is a Jew. How can God's elect be cut off from God's elect?

But the majority can be cut off, if they do not believe in Jesus. And they have been.

I know how that makes the heart of God grieve, because I feel a sense of terrible sadness about it too (obviously not as deep as God feels it), but I do feel it, and this also tells me what Paul felt when he spoke the words written in @BlessedPeace Romans 9:1-5 (corrected reference).

But Jesus, and Paul, and John the Baptist before them, all acknowledged the reality of it. It's 20th and 21st century Christians who refuse to.

 

[covenantee]

Why did you omit God's promise to Abraham concerning the "ethnic group" Israel? God didn't just promise Christ would come from the Jewish People. He promised Abraham a *nation* of Jews!

God promised far greater than that.

Genesis 12
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were made to Abraham, to his seed Christ, and to his seed those who are Christ's.

Not to an "ethnic group Israel".

God is not a racist.

He cannot be contorted into one.

 

[Zao is life]

God promised far greater than that.

Genesis 12
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were made to Abraham, to his seed Christ, and to his seed those who are Christ's.

Not to an "ethnic group Israel".

God is not a racist.

He cannot be contorted into one.

copy @Randy Kluth

"The ethnic group", Israel = 12 of them. Ethnic groups. 10 of them were exiled and this is what God said to them:

"And the LORD said to him, Call his name God Will Sow. For still in a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel on the house of Jehu, and will cause the kingdom of the house of Israel to cease."

Note the distinction God makes between the house of Israel (the ten tribes) and the house of Judah:

"And she conceived again and bore a daughter. And God said to him, Call her name No-mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away.

But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will "not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen."

Note also how God would save Judah - through Christ - "not by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen."

But regarding the 10 tribes God continued to say,

"And when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you."

Then He said,

"Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.

Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head."

The above takes place in Christ - the head.

And then God concludes with what He said before about how the house of Israel was going to be judged when it would be scattered among the nations:

"And they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel."

Note that the above prophecy was not about the handful of the ten tribes that escaped to the Southern kingdom of Judah (who eventually became amalgamated with Judah). It's talking to the majority who were judged, and scattered. Note too that the above took place in 725 B.C.

Then hundreds of years passed, during which the descendants of the house of Israel that the above prophecy was speaking to (not the Jews, not the house of Judah, but the house of Israel - the 10 tribes that were judged and exiled) intermarried with Gentiles in the nations to which they had been scattered - until the day came that Paul said,

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;

whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?

As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

So already Paul was including Gentiles in the fulfillment of the above prophecy - in Christ.

And yet, brother @Randy Kluth, you dismiss half the scriptures of the Bible so that you can dismiss all the above ethnic groups descended from Abraham and falsely claim,

"God didn't just promise Christ would come from the Jewish People. He promised Abraham a *nation* of Jews!"

No, he did not. He promised Abraham that in his seed all the nations of the earth will be blessed - and Abraham's seed included not only the Jews.

God's purpose for choosing Abraham was to make him the father of many (Gentile) nations - it was, and is God's first promise to Abraham, and through Abraham's seed (Jesus), to bless all families of the earth. And God could not have done that if Abraham, a non-Jew, did not have a son called Isaac, a non-Jew, who did not have a son called Jacob/Israel, a non-Jew, who did not become the father of twelve sons.

One of Israel's son's whom (Judah) became the patriarch of the tribe of Judah (the Jews), through whom God chose to bring the seed promised to Abraham (Jesus) into the world,

through Whom all the families of the earth are blessed (Jesus was born a Jew),

and so Abraham became the father of a multitude of Gentile nations, just as God had promised.

The biblical scriptures are not all about and only about "the Jews" as your statements falsely imply. They are about God's promise to Abraham that he would become a father of a multitude of goyim (Gentile nations), and that in Abraham's seed (Christ) all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Would that everyone who is so fixated on "the Jews" would rather be fixated on Christ.

The country today called "Israel" has a King who is in exile because He has always been and still is rejected by the majority of the citizens of that nation as well as the government of that nation they call "Israel". His status, His position as their King, His authority, His Word and His Name are rejected by them.
​

Yet the chosen nation that the Bible calls Israel has Christ as its King.

Who is the real Israel?​

 

[Zao is life]

COMMENT

The country today called "Israel" has a King who is in exile because He has always been, and still is, rejected by the majority of the citizens of that country, as well as by the government of that country, as well as by the religious leaders of that country. Their King's status, His position as their King, His authority, His Word, and His Name are all rejected by them.

Yet the chosen nation that the Bible calls Israel has Christ as its King. It's made up of a multitude of tribes, tongues and nations in Christ.

Who is the real Israel?

Since the latter is the real Israel (the chosen nation that the Bible calls Israel, which has Christ as its king), does this mean that the country today called "Israel" is illegitimate?

How can it be, when some of the nations, through the power and authority which they gave themselves in the body of the nations they created and called "The United Nations", created the country, called it Israel, gave it to the Jews, and said, "Here. This is your country, and these are its borders" (leaving most of Biblical Judah/Judea a.k.a "the West Bank" or "Palestine" outside of its borders)?

But as we know the trouble is, many nations did not recognize the country, in fact from the start when it was created they despised the country, its government, its name, it's status and position as a sovereign or independent nation, and the Jews who now inhabit it.
​

Nor did they recognize the authority of The United Nations to have created it.

From then onward, these nations have wanted to annihilate "Israel's" Jewish population, and wipe the country off the map of the Middle East.

As a result, the nations have become divided between those nations who despise the Jewish population of "Israel" and want them annihilated and their country wiped off the map, and the nations who recognize its status but deal treacherously with the Jews who inhabit it by preventing them from adequately defending themselves against those who want to annihilate them, by forcing them to make suicidal concessions to their enemies.
​

--------------------------------------------------------​

I don't claim to know what the will of God is, but I do know that the Bible prophesied God's judgment - annihilation - of the nations in the exact same territory, and in the exact same city which has become an international hotbed for conflict.

And it's obvious that the cup of all the evil and treachery of the nations has its nest in "Israel" and is slowly reaching its fullness in the way every nation deals with the country today called "Israel" and its Jewish population - and this is despite the fact that the chosen nation that the Bible calls Israel has Christ as its King, but today's country called "Israel" reject Him as their King.

To me its reminiscent of the fact that God did not make a complete end of Judah when He judged them by the hand of Babylon - but He made a complete end of Babylon when its cup of wickedness had reached its fullness.
​

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done! And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake.

And the great city came to be into three parts,

and the cities of the nations fell.

And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath." Revelation 16:17-20.

Our only Savior is Jesus. He is our King. Our fellow citizens are joint-heirs as we are of His Kingdom. And together we are the chosen nation that the Bible calls Israel.

It's time for us to recognize "the weather" and to look up for our King's coming, instead of "looking up" for when (and if) the Jews of "Israel" will recognize their King, their sovereign, before He comes.

In my opinion.

 

[BlessedPeace]

copy @Randy Kluth

"The ethnic group", Israel = 12 of them. Ethnic groups. 10 of them were exiled and this is what God said to them:

"And the LORD said to him, Call his name God Will Sow. For still in a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel on the house of Jehu, and will cause the kingdom of the house of Israel to cease."

Note the distinction God makes between the house of Israel (the ten tribes) and the house of Judah:

"And she conceived again and bore a daughter. And God said to him, Call her name No-mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away.

But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will "not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen."

Note also how God would save Judah - through Christ - "not by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen."

But regarding the 10 tribes God continued to say,

"And when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you."

Then He said,

"Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.

Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head."

The above takes place in Christ - the head.

And then God concludes with what He said before about how the house of Israel was going to be judged when it would be scattered among the nations:

"And they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel."

Note that the above prophecy was not about the handful of the ten tribes that escaped to the Southern kingdom of Judah (who eventually became amalgamated with Judah). It's talking to the majority who were judged, and scattered. Note too that the above took place in 725 B.C.

Then hundreds of years passed, during which the descendants of the house of Israel that the above prophecy was speaking to (not the Jews, not the house of Judah, but the house of Israel - the 10 tribes that were judged and exiled) intermarried with Gentiles in the nations to which they had been scattered - until the day came that Paul said,

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;

whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?

As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

So already Paul was including Gentiles in the fulfillment of the above prophecy - in Christ.

And yet, brother @Randy Kluth, you dismiss half the scriptures of the Bible so that you can dismiss all the above ethnic groups descended from Abraham and falsely claim,

"God didn't just promise Christ would come from the Jewish People. He promised Abraham a *nation* of Jews!"

No, he did not. He promised Abraham that in his seed all the nations of the earth will be blessed - and Abraham's seed included not only the Jews.

God's purpose for choosing Abraham was to make him the father of many (Gentile) nations - it was, and is God's first promise to Abraham, and through Abraham's seed (Jesus), to bless all families of the earth. And God could not have done that if Abraham, a non-Jew, did not have a son called Isaac, a non-Jew, who did not have a son called Jacob/Israel, a non-Jew, who did not become the father of twelve sons.

One of Israel's son's whom (Judah) became the patriarch of the tribe of Judah (the Jews), through whom God chose to bring the seed promised to Abraham (Jesus) into the world,

through Whom all the families of the earth are blessed (Jesus was born a Jew),

and so Abraham became the father of a multitude of Gentile nations, just as God had promised.

The biblical scriptures are not all about and only about "the Jews" as your statements falsely imply. They are about God's promise to Abraham that he would become a father of a multitude of goyim (Gentile nations), and that in Abraham's seed (Christ) all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Would that everyone who is so fixated on "the Jews" would rather be fixated on Christ.

The country today called "Israel" has a King who is in exile because He has always been and still is rejected by the majority of the citizens of that nation as well as the government of that nation they call "Israel". His status, His position as their King, His authority, His Word and His Name are rejected by them.
​

Yet the chosen nation that the Bible calls Israel has Christ as its King.

Who is the real Israel?​

Jehu is not Judah.

 

[Zao is life]

Jehu is not Judah.

Correct. Jehu was of Israel, the Northern Kingdom. Jezreel was not in Judah.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head."

The above takes place in Christ - the head.​

The gathering together of Israel refers to *Israel*--not the International Church. There is no mention of the Church. Taking the word "head" to be Christ, and then extrapolating that to mean the Church, is far, far beyond what the passage says. This is a huge non-proof of what you're trying to say.

Then hundreds of years passed, during which the descendants of the house of Israel that the above prophecy was speaking to (not the Jews, not the house of Judah, but the house of Israel - the 10 tribes that were judged and exiled) intermarried with Gentiles in the nations to which they had been scattered - until the day came that Paul said,

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;

whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?

As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

So already Paul was including Gentiles in the fulfillment of the above prophecy - in Christ.​

As I said elsewhere, Israel = the Jewish People. So when the Scriptures speak of the restoration of Israel, it is also speaking of those of Judah who had been restored after the Babylonian Captivity. And Judah, having accumulated people from every tribe, could now be referred to as "restored Israel."

There is no mystery behind the inclusion of other nations in the peoples God promised to Abraham. From the start God promised him both the nation Israel and a company of many nations, all sharing in Abraham's faith. The Church thus includes Christian nations and will eventually include Israel when she becomes Christian, as well.

Currently, Israel can be viewed as "Not My People," but according to the prophecy they will again be called, "My People." It is on this basis that Gentiles were called to Christianity, because if Israel became worthless as God's People, then worthless pagans are equal to the Jews with rights to their spiritual heritage. And so, in this way Gentile nations were added to Israel's inheritance in Christ.

"God didn't just promise Christ would come from the Jewish People. He promised Abraham a *nation* of Jews!"

No, he did not. He promised Abraham that in his seed all the nations of the earth will be blessed - and Abraham's seed included not only the Jews. ​

I don't agree. God promised Abraham a "nation." Blessings that accompany this promise do not diminish the reality of the specific promise. God promised the nation Israel, plain and simple. And that's what we saw for over a thousand years, a nation in covenant with God. And though they broke their covenant with God, as they had before, they are promised a final restoration from which they will never again be removed.

God's purpose for choosing Abraham was to make him the father of many (Gentile) nations - it was, and is God's first promise to Abraham, and through Abraham's seed (Jesus), to bless all families of the earth. And God could not have done that if Abraham, a non-Jew, did not have a son called Isaac, a non-Jew, who did not have a son called Jacob/Israel, a non-Jew, who did not become the father of twelve sons.​

Yes, we've already addressed this one. Abraham is famous as the *father* of the Jewish People, and not just as the father of Christianity. To imply that Abraham, as a "non-Jew," gave birth to non-Jewish Gentile nations is a rather bizarre statement, given that all the history books portray Abraham as the father of the Jews.

It's rather like saying Edison, the father of the incandescent bulb, did not originally have an incandescent bulb when he originally came up with the idea. Of course there weren't Jews when Abraham became father of the Jews. So he couldn't have been a Jew yet! But why obscure the fact that he is father of the Jews?

One of Israel's son's whom (Judah) became the patriarch of the tribe of Judah (the Jews), through whom God chose to bring the seed promised to Abraham (Jesus) into the world...​

The fact Christ was born of the tribe of Judah has nothing to do with the producing of a nation descended from Abraham, which is what God had promised him. Christ was but one Jew among the many that comprised the nation Israel, which is what God promised--not just the individual man, Jesus.

The biblical scriptures are not all about and only about "the Jews" as your statements falsely imply.​

Why do you say that I imply the Scriptures are only about the Jews? I've never said that! You're targeting something that I don't even believe!

Would that everyone who is so fixated on "the Jews" would rather be fixated on Christ.​

I'm "fixated" on the promise of God to Abraham that he would produce a national posterity, Israel. Everything God promised in this regard is important and had implications for the rest of the human race. Israel was made, I believe, to be a model for any nation wanting to serve God with the warning to avoid the mistakes Israel made.

The grace promised impossibly to Israel after 2000 years of backsliding is an incredible display of patience and faithfulness of God's Word. If He is so faithful to backslidden Israel, all nations--the worst of them, can hope.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Genesis 15
(NIV)
​

The Lord’s Covenant With Abram​

15 After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision:
“Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,[a]
your very great reward.[b]”
2 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”
4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[d] be.”
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
7 He also said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”
8 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?”
9 So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.”
10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. 11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.
12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”
17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”​

Footnotes​

1. Genesis 15:1 Or sovereign​
2. Genesis 15:1 Or shield; / your reward will be very great​
3. Genesis 15:2 The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.​
4. Genesis 15:5 Or seed​
5. Genesis 15:18 Or river​

Genesis 14​

Genesis 16
​

​

 

[Zao is life]

As I said elsewhere, Israel = the Jewish People.

OK well that's your opinion and all my posts have already provided reasons why IMO what you say above is 100% false.

Israel is not the Jewish people "only", which your statement above implies.

The Jewish people who believed God the way Abraham did were always counted for the seed, and the remnant of the Jewish people since Christ are one part of Israel. The Jewish people have never equated to all Israel, but only one part of Israel.

The remnant of the Jewish people who believe in Jesus are the only people who have ensured the continuation of God's elect nation a.k.a Israel following the death and resurrection of Jesus. The Israel of which they were always and are now, a part of.

So we agree to disagree.​

 

[BlessedPeace]

For sisters and brothers here who try to get a handle on the anti-Israel , "the Jews aren't actually Jews" rhetoric. Keep in mind,when someone is "anti-Jew", anti-Israel, they are also asailing the identity of Jewish Jesus.
See if this sounds familiar.
Copied from the article linked below.
"...So according to Jesus Himself, the people calling themselves Jews at this time are not "real" Jews, meaning that they are not actually of the tribe of Judah. But how can that be? First, we will see that Paul of Tarsus agrees with Jesus, and the events which Luke recorded in Acts chapter 26 had actually transpired about 35 years before John recorded the Revelation..."

Exactly Why Jesus Christ is NOT a Jew​

 

[Zao is life]

The country today called "Israel" has a King who is in exile because He has always been, and still is, rejected by the majority of the citizens of that country, as well as by the government of that country, as well as by the religious leaders of that country. Their King's status, His position as their King, His authority, His Word, and His Name are all rejected by them.

Yet the chosen nation that the Bible calls Israel has Christ as its King. It's made up of a multitude of tribes, tongues and nations in Christ.


Who is the real Israel? And,

Who believes in Jesus - a Jew - and who believes in those Jews who reject Him, His status, His position as their King, His authority, His Word, and His Name?

It's easy to see who places their faith in the flesh.

 

[Randy Kluth]

OK well that's your opinion and all my posts have already provided reasons why IMO what you say above is 100% false.

Israel is not the Jewish people "only", which your statement above implies.

The Jewish people who believed God the way Abraham did were always counted for the seed, and the remnant of the Jewish people since Christ are one part of Israel. The Jewish people have never equated to all Israel, but only one part of Israel.

The remnant of the Jewish people who believe in Jesus are the only people who have ensured the continuation of God's elect nation a.k.a Israel following the death and resurrection of Jesus. The Israel of which they were always and are now, a part of.

So we agree to disagree.​

That's okay brother. My fellowship with Bible-believing brothers and sisters is not contingent on our agreement on this particular matter. We do indeed see things differently.

In giving promises both to Abraham and to his "seed," the word "seed" referred to Abraham's *descendants," and not just to Christ himself. His "descendants" included Christ but obviously referred to the whole group, even though Paul is drawing attention to a singular, common association with Christ.

As such, "seed" refers both to the singular association with Christ and to the plurality of the members of this group. It's like referring to a single fraternal organization without excluding the fact it includes many members. I think you'll find most Bible commentaries on this passage would recognize that "seed" is being used by Paul in the double sense of Abraham's descendants as well as to Christ as the head of the Body.

This particular interpretation is difficult for some to accept, but it is what I believe the passage means. I argue it not to coerce others to agree with me, but only to ensure that what I believe about this is properly expressed and understood as such. I don't want you to feel you have to "100% disagree" with something that doesn't really represent what I believe.

Whatever you believe about "Israel" and no matter how you might define it, my interpretation here is not completely determinative. Many who believe as you do would accept my interpretation of this passage, and my interpretation of what "seed" means.

 

[mailmandan]

And the works James was talking about are written in James 1:26-27 and James 2:1-6 and 14-17. It's not talking about Mosaic law.

Keep in mind that when it comes to the moral aspect of the Mosiac law, we cannot 'dissect' good works from the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) but just not "those" works (works of the law). God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6)

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) Nowhere does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith "plus works of any kind."

The apostle Paul does not merely limit "works" only to specific works of the law of Moses but also includes works in general. In Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness (literally, works done in righteousness) which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen all things point back to what I call the law of love.. but this is also found in the law of moses.. the two great commands..

 

[Randy Kluth]

Keep in mind that when it comes to the moral aspect of the Mosiac law, we cannot 'dissect' good works from the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) but just not "those" works (works of the law). God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6)

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) Nowhere does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith "plus works of any kind."

The apostle Paul does not merely limit "works" only to specific works of the law of Moses but also includes works in general. In Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness (literally, works done in righteousness) which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works..

The whole problem over "works" in Christian Salvation is a semantics problem. I don't think anybody would argue that one must *receive Christ* to be saved.

Someone may then say, No, we don't have to receive Christ or believe in Christ because that would then be a "work," and we can't do a "work" to be saved! But Jesus did say there is a "work" we must do to be saved, and it is a different class of "work" that doesn't actually "earn" Salvation, but still is a prerequisite for Salvation, and that is to believe in him.

Clearly, "works" of this kind are required in both the Law and the Gospel. A person must agree to be under the Covenant of Law and then do the works of the Law to benefit from the forgiveness made available under the Law. And in the Gospel, one must believe in Christ and then obey Christ to enjoy the benefits of Salvation. These are necessary prerequisites, and have nothing to do with "earning" something in the sense of "paying for it."

The atonement of Christ was a "payment" that only Christ could provide. But there is still prerequisites for our coming to enjoy the benefits of that atonement. When we receive Christ we don't just say "Yes," and then go our own way. To say "yes" to Christ is to actually choose to follow him, showing that by our obedience to his commands.

But the Law and the Gospel are two separate systems, and we should not confuse them. Both the Law and the Gospel are moral systems, and have required a similar morality, as well as the same spirit, from each system. Both systems have required moral works.

However, the Law required that morality be joined to a single covenant system we call the Law, replete with temple, priesthood, and sacrificial system. It was purification accomplished by sinful Israel, sanctified by God's word. However, this system was intended to bless only in this life, and could neither completely purify from sin (legally) nor promise life in eternity.

On the other hand, morality was released from being under the Law in Christ's New Testament system. People are now required to be just and to love others, just as under the Law. But they are no longer required to live under a system of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. They still have to be moral, but they do not have to live under 600 plus laws.

The NT system of Christ did not immediately correct the problem of our Sin Nature, nor did it immediately give us immortal bodies. But it did do the work of guaranteeing these things, which the Law could not do. Christ himself *paid* for them! We did not.

Christ's work was his alone, and was a unique kind of work, paying for our Salvation. This kind of work, or this "class" of work belonged to Christ alone. Our "work" was in a completely different category, simply meeting the conditions necessary to benefit from Christ's work.

If we truly claim to be under the Gospel system, we must meet the prerequisites of being there, which is to receive Christ and to live for him. This is *not* earning Salvation such as "paying" for it. Rather, it is a matter of meeting necessary conditions, which is a different kind of "work."

I will just add this one more thing, with respect to "imputation." What is imputed to us is *Christ's flawless record,* so that we qualify to enter into heaven *through him.* But this does not mean that there are no qualifications for obtaining this imputation.

In the same way we must receive Christ for our Salvation we must meet the conditions for his imputation of his flawless record to our own flawed record. We must receive him, which means that his righteousness is also *transferred* to us.

That way, not only his flawless record is imputed to us but his righteousness is actually benefiting us. Unless imputation brings righteousness to us, of what value really is it? If we say "Yes" to Christ we're agreeing to let him transfer his righteousness to us along with his spotless record so that we may qualify for heaven. We are not *paying* for it, but we are in fact choosing to *receive* it!

 

[Zao is life]

Keep in mind that when it comes to the moral aspect of the Mosiac law, we cannot 'dissect' good works from the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) but just not "those" works (works of the law). God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6)

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) Nowhere does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith "plus works of any kind."

The apostle Paul does not merely limit "works" only to specific works of the law of Moses but also includes works in general. In Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness (literally, works done in righteousness) which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works..

Your post and your choice of the words "dissect good works from the law" shows your lack of understanding of the difference between good works produced by the Spirit of Christ (the fruit of the Spirit), and good works produced through obedience to the letter of the law contained in the written law and commandments (which is that Paul referred to as "the letter of the law"), which is the shadow of the fruit of the Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit is not lawlessness. Obedience to the law is lawlessness.

Bear in mind before you even read the rest that you don't even have a temple to offer sacrifices for your lack of obedience to the commandments you claim should be upheld - commandments which are part of Mosaic law which does not impart life because the failure to obey brings only death to the one who tries to live by obedience to IT, instead of obedience through faith in Christ producing the fruit of the Spirit that fulfills the law.

Like all who follow the same doctrine expressed in your post, you don't even realize that Christ's blood and living by the Spirit is not nullified by your doctrine, which despite any protest among its adherents teaches nothing more or less than "God requires of believers that they have faith in Christ + obedience to Mosaic law".

Your post equates the shadow of [Christ and the fruit of His Spirit], with Christ and the fruit of His Spirit.

The shadow is not equal to the God who gave the shadow to be a tutor to bring those who followed it, to Christ.

The Mosaic law is the letter that kills. The Spirit gives life. The law written on the heart (Jer.31:31-33) is the fruit of the Spirit, which is not lawless, but fulfills the law.

Your post betrays the fact that like so many others who teach the same doctrine you are expressing in your post, you do not understand (and as a result you are holding onto the Old Covenant, which brings death to all who hold onto it, because it's based on obedience to written laws and the blood of animals continually required to be sacrificed for sin),

and you believe the Old Covenant is still in operation alongside the New Covenant, which is based on faith in Christ and the blood of Christ shed once-for-all for sin, which produces the fruit of the Spirit that fulfills the written laws (the letter of the law), and imparts eternal life.

Your post shows that you do not understand in any way what it means for the law to have been a shadow, or what it means for the law to be written on the heart instead of on tablets of stone and in scrolls, nor do you understand the difference between man's futile attempts to live either by, or in obedience to the written law and the commandments - the letter of the law that kills - on one hand, and living by the Spirit through faith in Christ which leads to His Spirit producing the fruit of the Spirit in the one who lives by the Spirit (instead of by its shadow), on the other hand.

The apostle Paul especially, wrote lengthy passages in numerous letters trying to explain it. Unfortunately as his letter to the Galatians shows, even then there were those whose understanding was not capable of accepting it. They wanted Christ + obedience to the letter of the law.

The word "forever" that you see in the Old Testament law is always translated from the Hebrew word ‛ôlâm: the beginning or the end of the period is not known.

Looking back in time when the beginning of the period is not known:

"And David and his men went up and invaded the Geshurites, and the Gezrites, and the Amalekites. For they were the inhabitants of the land from of old (‛ôlâm), as you come into Shur, even into the land of Egypt." (1 Samuel 27:8);

"And Joshua said to all the people, So says the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers lived of old (‛ôlâm) beyond the River, Terah the father of Abraham, and the father of Nahor, and they served other gods." (Joshua 24:2);

"Remember the days of old (‛ôlâm); consider the years of many generations. Ask your father, and he will show you; your elders, and they will tell you." (Deuteronomy 32:7).

Looking into the future when the end of the period is not known:

"If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
And if he says to you, I will not go away from you, because he loves you and your house, because it has been good for him with you;
then you shall take an awl and put it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever (ôlâm). And also to your slave-girl you shall do so." (Deuteronomy 14:12, 16 & 17);

"And the LORD said to him, I have heard your prayer and your cry which you have made before Me. I have made this house which you have built holy, to put My name there forever (ôlâm). And My eyes and My heart shall be there all the days." (1 Kings 9:3);

"And you shall command the sons of Israel that they bring you pure olive oil beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn continuously in the tabernacle of the congregation, outside the veil which is before the testimony. Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD. It shall be a statute forever (ôlâm) to their generations on behalf of the sons of Israel." (Exodus 27:20-21).

‛ôlâm is closely related to the Greek word aeon (an Age of time), and because it denotes either a seemingly endless period of time (or an Age, the end of which was not known when the words were written), or a literally endless period of time, there are places in the Old Testament where ‛ôlâm does NOT mean "forever and ever", for example, taking us backwards in time from a certain point in time as in the verses quoted above.

‛ôlâm can also mean "forever and ever" (in perpetuity), for example in verses such as Proverbs 8:22-23; Genesis 21:33; Deuteronomy 32:40.

THE SABBATH LAW

"Therefore the sons of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for an everlasting (‛ôlâm) covenant.
It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever (‛ôlâm). For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed.
And He gave to Moses, when He had made an end of speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God." (Exodus 31:16-18).

"The tablets of stone" in the above verse are what is known as the Law. As reflected in the word ‛ôlâm, the end of the period spoken of in Exodus 3:16 was not known when the commandment was given.

Jesus is our sabbath. THE LAW CHANGED

"For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made in the law also." (Hebrews 7:12).

"Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand." (Galatians 3:19).

The covenant based on obedience to the law and commandments was broken by the people repeatedly, and because of sin, no human would ever have been capable of keeping the covenant.

You will never do even one good work produced by the Spirit - the fruit of the Spirit which fulfills the law - through obedience to the letter of the law contained in ordinances and the ten commandments, which is the shadow of the fruit of the Spirit of Christ.

I won't debate it further with you if you continue to argue in favor of the doctrine you follow and expressed in your post. It has been debated ad nauseam in these forums already, and this thread is about its OP. Not the subject you brought up. Hope you don't mind.​