Christ's sinless Head with a sinful body?

[ScottA]

You mean of your metaphysical mystery book of writings before the world began.

Once again. This is your own book of metaphysics about some creation before the foundation of the created world.

In the Bible, the foundation of heaven earth was before the creation of living creatures on the earth. Which makes sense.

And man was not a mere image of God, before God created and made man in His image.

Your imagery of phantasms before the world began, is fantastic imagination alone. I guess you're an avid reader of Tolkien. He also writes of an imagined beginning before the beginning.

Go ahead, mock the miracles and unworldly nature of God and the spirit. Did God not part the Red Sea? Did Jesus not walk on water? Don't be a fool!

 

[ScottA]

From God in the Bible I know. And from you in your writings I know.

I don't speculate about either. I can accurately know both what is from the Bible and also what is from you. I just read the words and take them at their normal meaning.

I don't try to reimagine the Bible like you, nor do I with your stuff. I believe honest reading is the easiest way to teaching exactly what is written.

And also, the thread topic remains true: There are no sinful members in body of the sinless Head Jesus Christ. There are no sinners in Christ Jesus, in whom is no sinning.

1. Do you know what the apostles could not bear that Jesus could not tell them 2,000 years ago?
2. Do you know the finish of the mystery of God as he declared to his servants the prophets, which was not to come until just before the seventh angel sounds?
3. Do you even know how we were to be "led unto all truth?"
4. Do you not know or even acknowledge that what is written on tablets is through a glass dimly?
5. Do you not know that the "normal meaning" of even the scriptures was confused by God himself, and then corrupted by false teachers with their destructive doctrines?

You know very little.

 

[The Learner]

Good discussion, at least interresting, I have nothing to say. Mark your calendars. :cool:

 

[Gottservant]

And she shall bring forth a son

[...]

Is Jesus Christ the Head sinless with His own body full of sin? God forbid. Is the sinless Head separated by sin from His own body? God forbid.

You need to emphasize that the sinful body, will be made sinless by the sinless Head.

 

[GracePeace]

Others will show you a different interpretation from the willful sinners stand point. Not me.

There is no 'better' interpretation of the Bible than the words themselves. The Bible interprets itself, and I have found that God has all His words written in just such a way, so as to ensnare the crafty in their own craftiness.

There are also certain verses of the Bible that stand alone and can have no other meaning than what they say. I call them proving stones that test the faith of the reader, by making an end of any argument about Bible teaching. One such is the Word was God. And yet we see volumes of so-called Bible scholars trying to say the Word was not God. They will twist any verse of the Bible, go to the Greek and Hebrew, and even argue manuscripts to do so. And yet, we still have the Bible saying the Word was God.

So it is in James 2. Once we read faith without works is dead, being alone, how can any reasonable reader, let alone professed believer, try to say the Bible teaches being saved and justified by faith alone? Only unbelievers can teach such things that plainly say the very opposite of what the Bible says. These Christian sinners do not believe all the words of the Bible. And they infact treat the Bible worse than honest unbelievers. An honest unbeliever may only read the Bible as just another book combining history, wisdom, spirituality, justice, religion, and theology, but at least they don't try to change it to say something else.

Any honest reader of the Bible, including unbelievers in the God of the Bible, will read James 2 and either agree with it or not and plainly sway so. They would not even think to try and change the Authors own words, in order to say He is actually teaching the very opposite of His own words. No other author and book on earth is so abused like the true God and His Bible. And it's done mostly by sinful Christians. that want to change what the Author is plainly saying into something else. They want to make the Author to agree with themselves and what their own minds say must be so.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The conclusion is simple. There are some Christian sinners, that refuse to believe their own sinning is just as condemned as any sinner of the world. And so they willingly rewrite certain verses of the Bible to teach the opposite of those words. It is always done to keep their soul and conscience covered from anything they may do at the time.

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Jesus is not saying that sinners have no sin, but only that sinners rejecting His words have no more doctrinal cloke to cover their sinning. They can certainly keep trying to sew their doctrine back together and keep it in tact, whenever His words are repeated to them. But that is only for now. In the grave all such word games end, and the Father only judges how we live.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Thanks for the interactions.

Yeah, the only way it coheres is the way that is straightforward. It doesn't work any other way.

About sinners who insist "only" their flesh sins, but not their spirits : sin is spiritual slavery, so it is not possible the spirit is not involved in any sin. Will the body commit sin after the spirit leaves? Nope!

 

[Ghada]

IF Jesus had a sin nature, then he could not be a lamb without blemish.

Exactly, This is why He had no sin nature inherited from David nor Abraham, because there is no such thing.

Angels and men only become sinners by sinning.

 

[Ghada]

You need to emphasize that the sinful body, will be made sinless by the sinless Head.

I used to believe this, but it's the sinner that becomes without sin by the sinless Head.

The body is just a body of flesh as grass and dust of earth. Neither sinful nor righteous, just natural mortal tissue, blood, and bone.

 

[Ghada]

Thanks for the interactions.

Yeah, the only way it coheres is the way that is straightforward. It doesn't work any other way.

About sinners who insist "only" their flesh sins, but not their spirits : sin is spiritual slavery, so it is not possible the spirit is not involved in any sin. Will the body commit sin after the spirit leaves? Nope!

Amen brother. Carnal minds with unconverted hearts, only see sin and righteousness as something done outwardly in the flesh.

They have yet to understand that all good and evil is spiritual in nature first. It's begins with the heart and spirit, which is where good and evil is first committed.

You are exactly right that it is impossible to be spiritually pure while sinning outwardly, since all such sinning begins with spiritual lust and uncleanness.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Only a carnal mind that thinks sinning is just a bodily thing, would think sin originates with the body. And only a childish mind that thinks sinning is only by the body, would try to blame their bodies for what they do with it.

They really don't understand in their darkened minds, that they are teaching against the power of their own souls and spirits being created int he image of God.

They teach a Christian version of lives ruled by their environment, with no power to change themselves nor their environment.

That's what the inherited 'sin nature' theology does to Christians, that ought be repenting of sinning altogether, and doing god's will at all times.

 

[GracePeace]

Amen brother. Carnal minds with unconverted hearts, only see sin and righteousness as something done outwardly in the flesh.

They have yet to understand that all good and evil is spiritual in nature first. It's begins with the heart and spirit, which is where good and evil is first committed.

You are exactly right that it is impossible to be spiritually pure while sinning outwardly, since all such sinning begins with spiritual lust and uncleanness.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Only a carnal mind that thinks sinning is just a bodily thing, would think sin originates with the body. And only a childish mind that thinks sinning is only by the body, would try to blame their bodies for what they do with it.

They really don't understand in their darkened minds, that they are teaching against the power of their own souls and spirits being created int he image of God.

They teach a Christian version of lives ruled by their environment, with no power to change themselves nor their environment.

That's what the inherited 'sin nature' theology does to Christians, that ought be repenting of sinning altogether, and doing god's will at all times.

I couldn't say they aren't Christian for not understanding that doctrine--I've heard people who believe in Jesus (especially myself) say plenty of silly things before. God is "the only wise King". If He makes us know, we can know.
We should thank God for the gift of eternal life, knowing Him, through His Son. Whoever has the Son has the Father.

 

[Gottservant]

I used to believe this, but it's the sinner that becomes without sin by the sinless Head.

The body is just a body of flesh as grass and dust of earth. Neither sinful nor righteous, just natural mortal tissue, blood, and bone.

You are forgetting that while we are in this life, we are to some extent "unclean".

That means you will never save the flesh, unless the flesh itself is converted.

 

[Ghada]

IF Jesus had a sin nature, then he could not be a lamb without blemish.

True. Nor could He have body of members with sin nature.

 

[Ghada]

I couldn't say they aren't Christian for not understanding that doctrine-

Of course not. There's plenty of Christian sinners not believing the doctrine of Christ. Muslims and Buddhists too. It just means they're still religious sinners.

-I've heard people who believe in Jesus (especially myself) say plenty of silly things before.

Absolutely. That's why we must always be open to correction from others teaching the Bible more accurately.

Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

Some things however can only be misunderstood willfully.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.

That's why they can't be corrected, because they won't.

 

[GracePeace]

Of course not. There's plenty of Christian sinners not believing the doctrine of Christ. Muslims and Buddhists too. It just means they're still religious sinners.



Absolutely. That's why we must always be open to correction from others teaching the Bible more accurately.

Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

Some things however can only be misunderstood willfully.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.

That's why they can't be corrected, because they won't.

No, I don't agree. I affirm that people can be righteous, and know God, and still have error in their understanding of Scripture--and I do not say "they're going hell" just because they're mistaken and disagree with me.

 

[The Learner]

No, I don't agree. I affirm that people can be righteous, and know God, and still have error in their understanding of Scripture--and I do not say "they're going hell" just because they're mistaken and disagree with me.

Good Points, friend, Brother

 

[Ghada]

About sinners who insist "only" their flesh sins,

So, it's not just me. I thought I was losing my mind. I repeat back to people the same thing, after they teach it, and then they get all huffy about how they "Didn't say that!!"

I call it the Christian ds functionalism and soul-separation theology. It's basically Christian New Age with a dose of liberal gushing. "Oh, I know I do bad things, but my heart is still good."

but not their spirits : sin is spiritual slavery,

Exactly all sin and righteousness is spiritual in nature, because it only comes from a clean or unclean spirit of men and angels.

Being created in the image of God, unlike other creatures on earth, is to have a heart and spirit to discern and choose good or evil.

No other creature on earth does either good or evil, but only what come natural. They have no heart to think, intend, and imagination for right or wrong.

so it is not possible the spirit is not involved in any sin. Will the body commit sin after the spirit leaves? Nope!

Perfect. I love it when I see new points from another angle. Thanks much.

By definition, the body doing anything without the spirit is impossible, because without the spirit of man, the body is dead.

And so, if the body could commit any deed without the spirit of man, then corpses could walk and talk and act on their own.

That's why I also call Christian soul-separation theology, where the 'sinful' body acts on it's own, Christian Zombieland for saved sinners.

Their souls are seated way high up their in their permanent heavenly bubbles, while the poor old sinful body takes all the heat for still sinning down here on planet earth.

They also say their bodies won't stop sinning, until the resurrection of the dead, so their just waiting around for their bad old bodies to croak. I'm reminded of the Star Trek episode of their heavenly divine minds stuck in their glass bubbles, just waiting around for a proper body to inhabit.

And you know what? That's right. Once they got a new body, then went right back to sinning again.

As you say, the moral of the story is simple: a sinful person with a corrupt spirit and lusting heart will transgress with whatever body they're using for it.

 

[GracePeace]

So, it's not just me. I thought I was losing my mind. I repeat back to people the same thing, after they teach it, and then they get all huffy about how they "Didn't say that!!"

I call it the Christian ds functionalism and soul-separation theology. It's basically Christian New Age with a dose of liberal gushing. "Oh, I know I do bad things, but my heart is still good."

Exactly all sin and righteousness is spiritual in nature, because it only comes from a clean or unclean spirit of men and angels.

Being created in the image of God, unlike other creatures on earth, is to have a heart and spirit to discern and choose good or evil.

No other creature on earth does either good or evil, but only what come natural. They have no heart to think, intend, and imagination for right or wrong.


Perfect. I love it when I see new points from another angle. Thanks much.

By definition, the body doing anything without the spirit is impossible, because without the spirit of man, the body is dead.

And so, if the body could commit any deed without the spirit of man, then corpses could walk and talk and act on their own.

That's why I also call Christian soul-separation theology, where the 'sinful' body acts on it's own, Christian Zombieland for saved sinners.

Their souls are seated way high up their in their permanent heavenly bubbles, while the poor old sinful body takes all the heat for still sinning down here on planet earth.

They also say their bodies won't stop sinning, until the resurrection of the dead, so their just waiting around for their bad old bodies to croak. I'm reminded of the Star Trek episode of their heavenly divine minds stuck in their glass bubbles, just waiting around for a proper body to inhabit.

And you know what? That's right. Once they got a new body, then went right back to sinning again.

As you say, the moral of the story is simple: a sinful person with a corrupt spirit and lusting heart will transgress with whatever body they're using for it.

It's because they don't know how to read Romans 7. They claim Romans 7 is the life of Paul as a Christian--completely conquered by sin, and incapable of keeping God's Law (though he immediately after says he keeps God's Law (Ro 8:4)), and at the end, he says, "with my mind I serve the Law of God, but with my flesh I serve the Law of Sin".

They think that means, "My mind is separate from what my body does--my body is over there sinning, but I'm with God in my mind."

What they don't understand is that Paul says that last bit (v25) as an explanation for why he is not sinning now: he is not in the flesh but in the spirit (Ro 8:9)! "My conscience is clear," he elsewhere says. IF he were in the flesh, he would be serving Sin's Law, but since he is not in the flesh, but in the spirit, he is set free from Sin's Law (Ro 8:2).

 

[Ghada]

No, I don't agree. I affirm that people can be righteous, and know God, and still have error in their understanding of Scripture--and I do not say "they're going hell" just because they're mistaken and disagree with me.

I agree with this part of course.

However, when such errors result in continued unrighteousness, then that is unrepentance, not just a 'mistake' of doctrinal detail.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies...Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin;

No unrepented sinner is believing Jesus from the heart unto His salvation and righteousness. Especially not them that teach it as normal sinful Christian living for life.

Disagreements about prophetic fulfillment, works of the ministry, etc...are not the same thing, and should not break fellowship.

But open works of the flesh, especially taught as suitable Christian living, demand breaking of fellowship.

And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

 

[Ghada]

It's because they don't know how to read Romans 7. They claim Romans 7 is the life of Paul as a Christian-

Exactly. They justify Romans 7 sinning for life contrary to the law of Christ, and claim no condemnation of Romans 8, which is only those now walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

They make Paul to be the chiefest of all Christian sinners in the process. They have cast out all shame.

They think that means, "My mind is separate from what my body does--my body is over there sinning, but I'm with God in my mind."

Exactly again.

What they don't understand is that Paul says that last bit (v25) as an explanation for why he is not sinning now: he is not in the flesh but in the spirit (Ro 8:9)! "My conscience is clear," he elsewhere says. IF he were in the flesh, he would be serving Sin's Law, but since he is not in the flesh, but in the spirit, he is set free from Sin's Law (Ro 8:2).

Exactly, Which is right after the cry to the Lord for deliverance from the wretchedness of doubleminded sinning.

As you say, Therefore, if we are with the mind of the Spirit, then we walk after the Spirit. If we are for the flesh, then we walk after the flesh.

It's either/or, not both at the same time. If we do mind the things of the Spirit, we walk after the Spirit, but if we mind the things of the flesh, we walk after the flesh.

I truly do despise dysfunctional Christianity, because it's so pathetically childish. People think they can say the most hypocritical things, because they are saying it with biblical lingo.

They don't stop to think about it objectively. They are literally telling themselves and the world, that they are obeying God and doing good in their minds, when doing the opposite with their bodies. God in Romans 7 is not justifying it, but empathetically decrying it.

The sum of all their endless words and explanations is obvious: They still do the sins of the world, but now as Christians they think better of themselves than the world. It's classic religious hypocrisy.

 

[GracePeace]

I agree with this part of course.

However, when such errors result in continued unrighteousness, then that is unrepentance, not just a 'mistake' of doctrinal detail.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies...Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin;

No unrepented sinner is believing Jesus from the heart unto His salvation and righteousness. Especially not them that teach it as normal sinful Christian living for life.

Disagreements about prophetic fulfillment, works of the ministry, etc...are not the same thing, and should not break fellowship.

But open works of the flesh, especially taught as suitable Christian living, demand breaking of fellowship.

And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Yeah but they're not all the same. That's why I'm saying I don't judge based solely on doctrine. For instance, John Piper, who is OSAS, said he received a grace whereby he was kept from being attracted to any woman other than his wife after he married. That's holiness by grace!

 

[GracePeace]

Exactly. They justify Romans 7 sinning for life contrary to the law of Christ, and claim no condemnation of Romans 8, which is only those now walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

They make Paul to be the chiefest of all Christian sinners in the process. They have cast out all shame.


Exactly again.


Exactly, Which is right after the cry to the Lord for deliverance from the wretchedness of doubleminded sinning.

As you say, Therefore, if we are with the mind of the Spirit, then we walk after the Spirit. If we are for the flesh, then we walk after the flesh.

It's either/or, not both at the same time. If we do mind the things of the Spirit, we walk after the Spirit, but if we mind the things of the flesh, we walk after the flesh.

I truly do despise dysfunctional Christianity, because it's so pathetically childish. People think they can say the most hypocritical things, because they are saying it with biblical lingo.

They don't stop to think about it objectively. They are literally telling themselves and the world, that they are obeying God and doing good in their minds, when doing the opposite with their bodies. God in Romans 7 is not justifying it, but empathetically decrying it.

The sum of all their endless words and explanations is obvious: They still do the sins of the world, but now as Christians they think better of themselves than the world. It's classic religious hypocrisy.

Romans 6:14 tells the Jewish Christians in the Roman Church "Sin will not make you its slave (will not master you) because you are not under Law but under Grace", and Romans 7 is an illustration of just that--of the Jew ("in the flesh" (Ro 7:5)--Christians are "not in the flesh" (Ro 8:9)) under the Law being mastered by sin.