RT's illegitimate language use

[Keraz]

Ethnic Israel is assured by God in no uncertain terms that God will preserve them.

The problem is: Who are the actual descendants of Jacob?
They cannot be just the Jews, of whom it is provable that many of them became Jews by conversion. the main example being the entire Kharzarian peoples in the Middle ages.
God does know who the true Israelites are; Amos 9:9. He sent Jesus to save them and now it is the millions of Christians - Jew and Gentile, who are the righteous, faithful People of God.
Thinking that God will redeem and forgive a people group who have consistently and forcefully rejected Jesus for the last nearly 2000 years, is the height of incredulity. They cursed themselves and many Prophesies tell of their virtual demise. Isaiah 22:14, Amos 2:4-5

 

[covenantee]

I do believe him

Thats why I believe when Israel repents, he will rostore them to their land.

why don;t you believe him?

God's Last Word on the subject is 2 Corinthians 1:20.

His Last Word is not about Israel or the land.

It is about His Son.

I believe His Last Word.

You don't.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God's Last Word on the subject is 2 Corinthians 1:20.

His Last Word is not about Israel or the land.

It is about His Son.

I believe His Last Word.

You don't.

Again, I do believe it

It is about Christ

And Christ (who made the promise) said when they repent (and they will) he will remember the promise, and restore them to their land..

 

[ewq1938]

Again, I do believe it

It is about Christ

And Christ (who made the promise) said when they repent (and they will) he will remember the promise, and restore them to their land..

Christ said no such thing. Besides, they live in the land already without repenting. No restore is needed obviously.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Christ said no such thing. Besides, they live in the land already without repenting. No restore is needed obviously.

Ezek 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Jesus said exactly that

They are not restored today, they are still in sin..

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's a good metaphor.

The Bible uses a similar one, but a little different. There, they are sheep and goats. The sheep follow the shepherd, and the goats... well they act like goats... climbing trees, making comical screams, stranding themselves on impossible ledges... goat stuff.


We can agree that they don't stop being Israel. Where we disagree is whether they were ever Israel to begin with. As nearly as I can tell, the answer is that they weren't. They were Edom and Ishmael, masquerading as part of Israel.

Sorry, I can't find that in the Scriptures. Where do we find, "The wicked in Israel were not true 'Israel,' but were never really 'Israel,' but were actually covert 'Edomites?' "

Doesn't even sound right! But yes on the goats/sheep metaphor. I would just say that both goats and sheep were Israel, separated by their natures. Both were "Israel," but one was one kind of "Israelite," and the other was another kind of "Israelite."

 

[ewq1938]

Ezek 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Jesus said exactly that

They are not restored today, they are still in sin..

You said when they repent they will be restored to their land. They are already in their land without repenting so what you claim makes no sense.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You said when they repent they will be restored to their land. They are already in their land without repenting so what you claim makes no sense.

They are living in peace with their neighbors. They are one nation again in all the land that God gave them, and they have Christ as king?

They are not restored yet my friend.

 

[ewq1938]

They are living in peace with their neighbors. They are one nation again in all the land that God gave them, and they have Christ as king?

They are not restored yet my friend.

You are avoiding what you said. You said they would be RESTORED TO THEIR LAND when they repent but obviously they are in their land WITHOUT repenting.

And Christ (who made the promise) said when they repent (and they will) he will remember the promise, and restore them to their land..

The entire claim is unscriptural.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are avoiding what you said. You said they would be RESTORED TO THEIR LAND when they repent but obviously they are in their land WITHOUT repenting.

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RESTORED TO THEIR LAND

if your not going to read the passage where i showed what will happen when they are restored.

Then stop with your nonsense.

The entire claim is unscriptural.

Go ahead and ignore the passage where i showed it will happen.

thats on you bud..

 

[ewq1938]

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RESTORED TO THEIR LAND

Yes they have, since 1948.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

What happened to the twelve tribes of Israel? Are all Jews today descendants of just the Judean and Levi tribes?

Answer (1 of 99): I see that both two answers here seem to be misleading so I will try myself. The ancient Israel was first ruled by a one united kingdom. Then later after the death of Solomon in about 931 BCE it was divided into two seperated kingdoms. One was called the "Kingdom of Israel" and...

www.quora.com

 

[Zao is life]

“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all;

Jesus said exactly that

They are not restored today, they are still in sin..

True. But you're left something out that cannot be left out:

Ezekiel 36:1 - 37:14 is not talking to, or about Judah/the Jews/the house of Judah, but to/about the 10 tribes of the house of Israel that was judged in 725 B.C, exiled, and became scattered among the nations.

NONE OF THEM WERE JEWS, AND NONE OF THEM ARE JEWS. Their descendants assimilated with the nations, and have intermarried with Gentiles to this day, to the extent that no one can prove he is a genetic descendant of one of those 10 tribes - and even if he could, he would have mixed ancestry.

The first time the house of Judah/the Jews is mentioned in the prophecy, is in Ezekiel 37:16:

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions (the two tribes of the Southern kingdom of Judah + the Levites): then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions (the 10 Northern tribes of the Northern kingdom of Israel):
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 ¶And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 ¶And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

ONLY NOW DOES GOD START SPEAKING OF BOTH NATIONS AS ONE NATION:

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

QUESTION TIME:

1. Which of the two kingdoms - the house of Israel and the house of Judah - are the Jews?

2. Who are the others?

BOTH NATIONS WILL BE BROUGHT BACK INTO THE LAND:

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

"The house of Israel" being spoken of BEFORE Ezekiel 37:16 are not the Jews, the house of Judah. They are these people:

(The following prophecy was fulfilled circa 725 B.C - over 100 years before Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon and the hosue of Judah/the Jews were exiled in Babylon):

6 And she conceived again and bore a daughter. And God said to him, Call her name No-mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Judah/the kingdom of the Jews continued to exist. The rest of the Israelites ceased to exist as a nation (one nation before God):

8 And when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son.
9 And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you.
10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
11 Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head.

Paul quoted Hosea, including all Gentiles in Christ as he quoted the prophecy as being fulfilled IN CHRIST:

24 whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the Gentiles/the nations?

25 As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved."
26 And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God." -- Romans 9.

Only those who have an obsession with one of the 12 tribes of Israel only (the Jews) will always remain blinded to the prophecy's full meaning.

UNDERSTAND: THERE IS NO JEW AND GENTILE IN CHRIST. IN CHRIST THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE. THE TWO STICKS - ALL THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL - ALL ISRAEL - BECOME ONE IN CHRIST.

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins."
​

The house of Israel and the house of Judah are BEING joined into one stick in Christ ever since He made the new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah - Jeremiah 31:31 when He took away their and our sins - Matthew 26:28.

No one will ever fully understand the prophecy in Ezekiel until they understand the basis for it, and BELIEVE God when He says "in Christ there is NEITHER Jew NOR Gentile."

Not much hope of that while Christians have an obsession with only the tribe of Judah and consider only the tribe of Judah to inherit the promises God made to Abraham. The inheritance is Christ's and ALL those "sticks" who are in Him through their faith in Him.
​

@Keraz is the only other person I've ever seen in these boards who understand this and acknowledges it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So Ez 37 was fulfilled in 1948?

Ez 37: 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Can you explain to me why Israel is still in sin, if they have been restored? Why there is still 3 religions, one of them her greatest enemy in her capital city if they have been restored? why they are at war continuously with the nations all around them if they have been restored?

You can try to make your own narrative to ignore the truth. But you can not ignore the fact they HAVE NOT BEEN RESTORED yet..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

True. But you're left something out that cannot be left out:

Ezekiel 36:1 - 37:14 is not talking to, or about Judah/the Jews/the house of Judah, but to/about the 10 tribes of the house of Israel that was judged in 725 B.C, exiled, and became scattered among the nations.

NONE OF THEM WERE JEWS, AND NONE OF THEM ARE JEWS. Their descendants assimilated with the nations, and have intermarried with Gentiles to this day, to the extent that no one can prove he is a genetic descendant of one of those 10 tribes - and even if he could, he would have mixed ancestry.​

so God lied. God said he would do something, and he is not going to keep his promise. He promised he would keep a remnant who have not defiled themselves. And even Paul spoke of this in romans 11. But they are no more God broke his promise

I am sorry My friend, God does not break his promises. To Israel, or to his adopted children saved by the blood of the lamb. He keeps his promises. BECAUSE HE IS GOD.

You want to deny this, that he will take what he gave them and what he gave us if we do not meet certain conditions.. Then thats on you.

good luck trying to explain to God why he is a God who lies.

 

[Zao is life]

so God lied. God said he would do something, and he is not going to keep his promise. He promised he would keep a remnant who have not defiled themselves. And even Paul spoke of this in romans 11. But they are no more God broke his promise

I am sorry My friend, God does not break his promises. To Israel, or to his adopted children saved by the blood of the lamb. He keeps his promises. BECAUSE HE IS GOD.

You want to deny this, that he will take what he gave them and what he gave us if we do not meet certain conditions.. Then thats on you.

good luck trying to explain to God why he is a God who lies.

I'm only telling you that you can't make God a liar by ignoring the FACT that Ezekiel 36:1-37:14 is not talking to the Jews or about the Jews. The Jews are included in the prophecy from Ezekiel 37:16 onward.

I did not say the prophecy has already been fulfilled. Nor did I say it won't be fulfilled. But stick to the facts. The prophecy is talking about Jews and Gentiles in Christ being joined into one nation, and being gathered into the land. You yourself said it has not been fulfilled yet.

@Eternally Grateful If you do not believe God about the above then it's because you do not believe God that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. In which case you are the one saying God is a liar.

The house of Israel = Gentiles in Christ, because they do not exist as an Israelite nation anymore and the prophecy in Hosea 1:9-10 is fulfilled by Gentiles coming to Christ. Ezekiel 36:1-27:14 was never ever talking to or about the Southern kingdom, i.e the Jews. Hosea 1:11a and Ezekiel 37:16 onward are the same prophecy.​

 

[Wick Stick]

View attachment 38178

Why is the church so bad at geography? This map is terrible. Problems:

Simeon... didn't receive a grant of land. This was his penalty (alongside Levi) for sinning.

Asher... at no point did Asher ever control Tyre or Sidon, or any territory north of the Leontes River for that matter.

Zebulon... is too small and/or in the wrong place. According to Isaiah, it included territory on the "other side of Jordan" and "by the way of the sea" and that territory is assigned to the eastern half of Manasseh here.

Manasseh... doesn't extend far enough north. The Israelites under Moses drove out the Amorites and captured their cities. The Amorite homeland was north of the Yarmuk River.

Reuben... most of the territory shown for it here actually was part of Moab. When the Israelites encamped east of Jordan and "opposite Jericho" they were in contact at that place with the Moabites (Num 25).

Ephraim... isn't large enough. It should be more southward to include Jerusalem and Bethlehem. The original name of Bethlehem was Ephratah, which is a derivation of the name Ephraim. It extends too far east on the map here... the border with Benjamin was at Bethel.

Benjamin... is almost completely in the wrong place. The eastern 2/3 of what is shown here was part of Ephraim, while the actual territory should extend much further northward into what is here shown as Manasseh.

Dan... never did actually conquer the territory he was assigned by lot. He instead established a city in the north. The city is shown here but not as part of the tribe of Dan.

 

[covenantee]

Ezek 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Jesus said exactly that

They are not restored today, they are still in sin..

And then what did He say?

2 Corinthians 1:20

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And then what did He say?

2 Corinthians 1:20

2 cor 1 does not refute what I said

So moving on. I will trust god to keep his promise not only to me. But his nation

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm only telling you that you can't make God a liar by ignoring the FACT that Ezekiel 36:1-37:14 is not talking to the Jews or about the Jews. The Jews are included in the prophecy from Ezekiel 37:16 onward.​

Well you failed

Ezekiel said JUDAH and ISREAL

And he said they were scattered because of sin

Twist it however you want if it convinces you. So be it