The Narrow Way

[dragonfly]

Hi Strat,

There is a world of difference between a person depending on God because God has called him or her to a certain ministry with the promise of having daily living needs met, and a person who exploits other people to shirk work. God knows the difference. So does the honest Christian. Very few people would try to live 'by faith' without God backing them up. if they succeed because they have manipulated people into supporting them, God cannot endorse that. The NT is as full of information about attitudes which are acceptable to God in His servants, as it is about earning to eat.

 

[Episkopos]

The bioble does not prohibit one from working and making a living and not being a burden to others with our needs that God gave us talents and abilities to provide for....try as you may it doesn't prohibit it..i know you want it to but it doesn't...does it prohibit greed and covetousness yes it does,it tells us to be content with what we have,nothing is free in this world and if you are not earning your way the bible says you should starve,and if you are not providing for your family then you are worse than an infidel...people need food,clothing and shelter or they die..i suspect you have all three and shame on you if you are allowing others to provide it for you if you are able to do it yourself....you will receive no reward for that.

You are arguing against the bible again. Jesus says to forsake all...and you have a thousand excuses why that can't be done. Sharing all we have does not mean we loaf around...we work but not for our private advancement. We work for the advancement of the kingdom. God sees to our needs. We look to His will. The world does the opposite....they look after their own needs and let God look after His own will.

There is a calling on they that are Christ's to live sacrificially for Him. This is the way of the cross that is the narrow way that few are either bothered with...or else cannot do it as they are so ingrained into the ways of the world. Jesus said it well when He listed the excuse... I have married a wife... I know of practically very few married couples that are together FIRST for the Lord. So few are seeking the kingdom first. The relationship that most men have with their wives precludes any thought of living sacrificially together. They have put the temporal things ahead of the eternal.

Who holds their husband or wife as first a kingdom partner??

 

[Strat]

You are arguing against the bible again. Jesus says to forsake all...and you have a thousand excuses why that can't be done. Sharing all we have does not mean we loaf around...we work but not for our private advancement. We work for the advancement of the kingdom. God sees to our needs. We look to His will. The world does the opposite....they look after their own needs and let God look after His own will.

There is a calling on they that are Christ's to live sacrificially for Him. This is the way of the cross that is the narrow way that few are either bothered with...or else cannot do it as they are so ingrained into the ways of the world. Jesus said it well when He listed the excuse... I have married a wife... I know of practically very few married couples that are together FIRST for the Lord. So few are seeking the kingdom first. The relationship that most men have with their wives precludes any thought of living sacrificially together. They have put the temporal things ahead of the eternal.

Who holds their husband or wife as first a kingdom partner??

Nonsense,Jesus says to forsake all in the sense of priorities...he who loves father or mother more than me does not mean we can't have a father or mother,it simply means that if father and mother come first then one is not following Jesus...working for private advancement ? more nonsense,most people work to put food on the table.clothes on the back and a roof over the head for their families and those with any decency and self respect do it to not be a burden to others...the bible speaks about that to...your attitude is judgemental in the extreme....perhaps you are a marxist-Leninist christian

Hi Strat,

There is a world of difference between a person depending on God because God has called him or her to a certain ministry with the promise of having daily living needs met, and a person who exploits other people to shirk work. God knows the difference. So does the honest Christian. Very few people would try to live 'by faith' without God backing them up. if they succeed because they have manipulated people into supporting them, God cannot endorse that. The NT is as full of information about attitudes which are acceptable to God in His servants, as it is about earning to eat.

I understand that,communist christians do not.

 

[aspen]

nothing wrong with work - it is healthy. Working for salvation is the only type of work that is in vain

 

[Episkopos]

Nonsense,Jesus says to forsake all in the sense of priorities...he who loves father or mother more than me does not mean we can't have a father or mother,it simply means that if father and mother come first then one is not following Jesus...working for private advancement ? more nonsense,most people work to put food on the table.clothes on the back and a roof over the head for their families and those with any decency and self respect do it to not be a burden to others...the bible speaks about that to...your attitude is judgemental in the extreme....perhaps you are a marxist-Leninist christian



I understand that,communist christians do not.

Middle class Christendom is far removed indeed from the spiritual community that Christ is building.

 

[Strat]

Middle class Christendom is far removed indeed from the spiritual community that Christ is building.

"Spiritual" people are often lazy people,using spirituality as an excuse from being responsable as well as useful in any practical way.

 

[Episkopos]

"Spiritual" people are often lazy people,using spirituality as an excuse from being responsable as well as useful in any practical way.

2Co 7:3 I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you.

Sounds kind of communistic? ;)

 

[Strat]

2Co 7:3 I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you.

Sounds kind of communistic? ;)

I believe work and responsability are christian virtues,and being useful in this present physical world is a form of christian service.

 

[Episkopos]

I believe work and responsability are christian virtues,and being useful in this present physical world is a form of christian service.

So we are living in a Christian society are we? We are already living at he proper depth of love and commitment and surrender to God?

 

[Strat]

So we are living in a Christian society are we? We are already living at he proper depth of love and commitment and surrender to God?

That is not what i said,it is plain to me that you have no interest apart from making yourself appear to be better than everyone else,lifting yourself up by high sounding words and judgemental attitudes towards those who work and care for their families as we are commanded to do in a book written by a God you act as if you are so much closer to than anyone else...as far as depth of love and commitment goes that is between the individual and God,he will bring into the life of each believer what is needed to bring them to himself,everyone has room for improvement....even you.

 

[Episkopos]

That is not what i said,it is plain to me that you have no interest apart from making yourself appear to be better than everyone else,lifting yourself up by high sounding words and judgemental attitudes towards those who work and care for their families as we are commanded to do in a book written by a God you act as if you are so much closer to than anyone else...as far as depth of love and commitment goes that is between the individual and God,he will bring into the life of each believer what is needed to bring them to himself,everyone has room for improvement....even you.

This is not about improvement but the will of God. God's ways cannot be improved upon...His ways are perfect. I am merely pointing out what Jesus is saying. Rather than being judgmental....this is the attitude you are bringing to the table. The rich young ruler went away sad because he cared too much for his temporal wealth...did Jesus make him sad??? Does the universe revolve around human feelings? Didn't Jesus care enough for the rich man to call him to follow Him? Why would anyone see that as bad?

So we have a chance in this life to forsake all to follow Christ. It is the same calling over and over again. To take that calling as an affront is the height of pride...as if what we feel is more important than God.

The purpose of the gospel calling is not about what the flesh does...but what God does in His surrendered ones. That calling is a race.

Should we call off all races for the sake of those who think they will never be able to win??

The fact remains that it is our own lack of faith that impedes us from running....we all have exactly the same potential to walk as any person that lived before us. What becomes of that potential is up to us.

 

[Strat]

This is not about improvement but the will of God. God's ways cannot be improved upon...His ways are perfect. I am merely pointing out what Jesus is saying. Rather than being judgmental....this is the attitude you are bringing to the table. The rich young ruler went away sad because he cared too much for his temporal wealth...did Jesus make him sad??? Does the universe revolve around human feelings? Didn't Jesus care enough for the rich man to call him to follow Him? Why would anyone see that as bad?

So we have a chance in this life to forsake all to follow Christ. It is the same calling over and over again. To take that calling as an affront is the height of pride...as if what we feel is more important than God.

The purpose of the gospel calling is not about what the flesh does...but what God does in His surrendered ones. That calling is a race.

Should we call off all races for the sake of those who think they will never be able to win??

The fact remains that it is our own lack of faith that impedes us from running....we all have exactly the same potential to walk as any person that lived before us. What becomes of that potential is up to us.

Lack of faith ? so now work is a lack of faith,we stand around gazing at our navel and expect God to drop what we need down from heaven ? please provide scripture that suggest that apart from an emergency situation we have any right to expect this.....what you seem to be saying is that anyone claiming to be a christian must be a fulltime minister or pastor and cannot be involved in any other form of work...where do you think the money that pays fulltime pastors and preachers comes from ?

 

[Episkopos]

Lack of faith ? so now work is a lack of faith,we stand around gazing at our navel and expect God to drop what we need down from heaven ? please provide scripture that suggest that apart from an emergency situation we have any right to expect this.....what you seem to be saying is that anyone claiming to be a christian must be a fulltime minister or pastor and cannot be involved in any other form of work...where do you think the money that pays fulltime pastors and preachers comes from ?

Why do you always go off on a tangent looking for something to criticize?

There are many forms of work and these are all performed by saints who have all things in common. This is primarily an attitude of non-ownership of what we have been entrusted with.
Do you look down on full time ministry?

You are looking for things to throw at this thread. The faith we have is in order to run the race set before us. If you think you have already won then say so. Say what you surmise from the bible and your own experience...but this twisting and bashing you are doing is not constructive in the least. A hizzy fit and proclamation of the truth have little in common.

I think most Christians have an opposition identity...what they disagree with...more than what they are really about!!!. This brings in a hostility and fear....with little love to be found. God's ways can be seen either way...it depends on us and how we see the world that God created but men have redefined.

Christianity has become a religion that does not interfere with our preferences. But this stance is against the gospel.


“Unless I understand the Cross, I cannot understand why my commitment to what is right must be precedence over what I prefer.”
― Ravi Zacharias

The narrow way is first to make room for Christ in our hearts....and then to allow that life to spill out into the world and change the world. We go from being selfish to sharing all things with others. We go from seeking to be saved to laying down our lives for God and the brethren. We go from wanting our rights and preferences to wanting the kingdom be established in our time and place. We go from the individual to the corporate....living for something larger than ourselves. We are not saved when we say we are saved...we are saved when we forsake our own ways and no longer care for our own life as a separate entity.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

I've been watching the discussion between you and Strat, and it stands out a mile that you are intolerant of anyone else's obedience to the Lord in the terms that they understand from Him in their lives.

To say

We are not saved when we say we are saved...we are saved when we forsake our own ways and no longer care for our own life as a separate entity.

may well apply to you in what God has called you to - to become a particular kind of example of the obedience He has required of you, but you cannot extrapolate that into every other Christian's life. God has done something completely different in mine, and I know I'm in the centre of His will for me.

If you were willing to say 'we are saved when we forsake our own ways to do the will of the Father', Matt 7:21, p5 of this thread would be different. We could actually talk about what 'the narrow way' is for each of us who are on it, and marvel at the glorious way God is keeping each of us according to His power and love, for His own purposes.

Every point Strat has made is valid, about what God has called him to at this present time in his life, and, it is all in the New Testament.

The fact is, (God knows) there are sheep as well as shepherds, and, there are special instructions to shepherds which do not apply to sheep; although sheep may watch the shepherd to learn from his example - whatever that example may be.

 

[Episkopos]

When life is lived by that which shows forth a witness that is both physical and spiritual in a mutuality that sustains both without violation of either, only then can life be truly faithful. We need to live IN God and among God to be a true witness of Christ. The presence of God both in us and around us (in the spiritual community) mutually sustains each so that the will of God is accomplished.

Hi Episkopos,

I've been watching the discussion between you and Strat, and it stands out a mile that you are intolerant of anyone else's obedience to the Lord in the terms that they understand from Him in their lives.

To say


may well apply to you in what God has called you to - to become a particular kind of example of the obedience He has required of you, but you cannot extrapolate that into every other Christians life. God has done something completely different in mine, and I know I'm in the centre of His will for me. (your emphasis multiplied back to you so you can perhaps see it)

If you were willing to say 'we are saved when we forsake our own ways to do the will of the Father', Matt 7:21, p3 of this thread would not exist.

Well..you are half way there! :) Do you claim to be perfected? Or just argue against any suggestion towards that end. It is one thing to claim to not have a full understanding or practice of the truth...but quite another to shoot down that which points to that fulness. A person then becomes guilty of standing against the truth.

It is ironic that you feel your position is closer to Strat's arguments. These speak for themselves. But how open are you to see what really motivates you? You have revealed yourself in your post...can YOU see it? The last person we will ever know is ourselves. Do you see what the principalities are doing to the gospel? Do you notice the re-packaging?...maybe only in part?

Selfishness has been enshrined in modern Christendom...God's plan for YOUR life, YOUR ministry...YOUR salvation....etc. The same pattern and contract as the world...just using different nouns.

The truth is not negotiable...you seem to understand that in part as well. You have accepted the internal housecleaning then curiously stand against the purpose of God in the external ramifications of a selfless life lived from Christ. Do you really understand the internal ramifications then? Do you understand what surrender is? Is it on our terms? Why stop with a partial crucifixion? Can God nail our hands but then NOT nail our feet at our request? Do we cry...enough!.. once we have felt His hand in one area of our lives?

Another irony is that I am defending the biblical idea of church. It would seem that many church goers have completely lost sight of the purpose of the church. This vision has rather turned to a cynical view of a "better than nothing" attitude that serves no purpose in the kingdom of God.

It is now an offense to see the church as THE pillar and ground of the truth in the here and now of our neighbourhoods. The truth is now seen as a quaint idealistic notion that only works in the imagination.

We are encouraged in these times to follow our preferences...with emphasis on "MY" and "MINE". Modern Christianity does not stand against personal preferences...it caters to them...and the people loved it so!!

We have experience with many "good" Christian folk that stop half-way. They choose to follow God in their own way....according to their own understanding and preference. These same people then turn on others who are a little more blind to the big picture than they are and marvel saying...why are they just doing what they want to do...the church isn't working??? ;)

“A friend asked the author,"If this conversion you speak about is truly supernatural, then why is it not more evident in the lives of so many Christians that I know?”
― Ravi Zacharias,

In Acts 2 we have the only example of an entire church being filled with the Spirit and what that did communally to them. We no longer see anyone being filled with the Spirit (or very rarely so) let alone a whole church...but still we ignore the biblical witness in favour of our experience. No wonder we don't experience revival and the victory of the church over our modern society.

 

[Strat]

Why do you always go off on a tangent looking for something to criticize?

There are many forms of work and these are all performed by saints who have all things in common. This is primarily an attitude of non-ownership of what we have been entrusted with.
Do you look down on full time ministry?

You are looking for things to throw at this thread. The faith we have is in order to run the race set before us. If you think you have already won then say so. Say what you surmise from the bible and your own experience...but this twisting and bashing you are doing is not constructive in the least. A hizzy fit and proclamation of the truth have little in common.

I think most Christians have an opposition identity...what they disagree with...more than what they are really about!!!. This brings in a hostility and fear....with little love to be found. God's ways can be seen either way...it depends on us and how we see the world that God created but men have redefined.

Christianity has become a religion that does not interfere with our preferences. But this stance is against the gospel.


“Unless I understand the Cross, I cannot understand why my commitment to what is right must be precedence over what I prefer.”
― Ravi Zacharias

The narrow way is first to make room for Christ in our hearts....and then to allow that life to spill out into the world and change the world. We go from being selfish to sharing all things with others. We go from seeking to be saved to laying down our lives for God and the brethren. We go from wanting our rights and preferences to wanting the kingdom be established in our time and place. We go from the individual to the corporate....living for something larger than ourselves. We are not saved when we say we are saved...we are saved when we forsake our own ways and no longer care for our own life as a separate entity.

When life is lived by that which shows forth a witness that is both physical and spiritual in a mutuality that sustains both without violation of either, only then can life be truly faithful. We need to live IN God and among God to be a true witness of Christ. The presence of God both in us and around us (in the spiritual community) mutually sustains each so that the will of God is accomplished.



Well..you are half way there! :) Do you claim to be perfected? Or just argue against any suggestion towards that end. It is one thing to claim to not have a full understanding or practice of the truth...but quite another to shoot down that which points to that fulness. A person then becomes guilty of standing against the truth.

It is ironic that you feel your position is closer to Strat's arguments. These speak for themselves. But how open are you to see what really motivates you? You have revealed yourself in your post...can YOU see it? The last person we will ever know is ourselves. Do you see what the principalities are doing to the gospel? Do you notice the re-packaging?...maybe only in part?

Selfishness has been enshrined in modern Christendom...God's plan for YOUR life, YOUR ministry...YOUR salvation....etc. The same pattern and contract as the world...just using different nouns.

The truth is not negotiable...you seem to understand that in part as well. You have accepted the internal housecleaning then curiously stand against the purpose of God in the external ramifications of a selfless life lived from Christ. Do you really understand the internal ramifications then? Do you understand what surrender is? Is it on our terms? Why stop with a partial crucifixion? Can God nail our hands but then NOT nail our feet at our request? Do we cry...enough!.. once we have felt His hand in one area of our lives?

Another irony is that I am defending the biblical idea of church. It would seem that many church goers have completely lost sight of the purpose of the church. This vision has rather turned to a cynical view of a "better than nothing" attitude that serves no purpose in the kingdom of God.

It is now an offense to see the church as THE pillar and ground of the truth in the here and now of our neighbourhoods. The truth is now seen as a quaint idealistic notion that only works in the imagination.

We are encouraged in these times to follow our preferences...with emphasis on "MY" and "MINE". Modern Christianity does not stand against personal preferences...it caters to them...and the people loved it so!!

We have experience with many "good" Christian folk that stop half-way. They choose to follow God in their own way....according to their own understanding and preference. These same people then turn on others who are a little more blind to the big picture than they are and marvel saying...why are they just doing what they want to do...the church isn't working??? ;)

“A friend asked the author,"If this conversion you speak about is truly supernatural, then why is it not more evident in the lives of so many Christians that I know?”
― Ravi Zacharias,

In Acts 2 we have the only example of an entire church being filled with the Spirit and what that did communally to them. We no longer see anyone being filled with the Spirit (or very rarely so) let alone a whole church...but still we ignore the biblical witness in favour of our experience. No wonder we don't experience revival and the victory of the church over our modern society.

Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light,not in the sense that it doesn't cost you but in the peace and contentment it brings in one's life...he also spoke to and of the religous aristocracy and elite who would always be seeking ways to make things more difficult and to add to the burdens as much as they could while doing very little themselves except to elevate themselves above others with an appearence of holiness....you do it here with a religous sounding name and a little slogan...also written in Hebrew i guess to give it a little extra religous kick...Episkopos is a greek word meaning overseer...one definition from the Greek New Testement Lexicon is "a man in charge of seeing that things get done by others"....are you the one that the people give their money to ? is that why you disdain work ? do you work ? have you ever worked ? i mean work not navel gazing.

 

[aspen]

sounds more like a concentration camp than a life with the Kingdom of God in our hearts

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light,not in the sense that it doesn't cost you but in the peace and contentment it brings in one's life...he also spoke to and of the religous aristocracy and elite who would always be seeking ways to make things more difficult and to add to the burdens as much as they could while doing very little themselves except to elevate themselves above others with an appearence of holiness....you do it here with a religous sounding name and a little slogan...also written in Hebrew i guess to give it a little extra religous kick...Episkopos is a greek word meaning overseer...one definition from the Greek New Testement Lexicon is "a man in charge of seeing that things get done by others"....are you the one that the people give their money to ? is that why you disdain work ? do you work ? have you ever worked ? i mean work not navel gazing.

LOL This is how far the mainstream has strayed from the biblical perspective. Episkopos means visitation as well as overseer. God used to visit His people when they were a people. Now people just pray for the things they want.

sounds more like a concentration camp than a life with the Kingdom of God in our hearts

Read Stalag 2 (Acts 2)...then compare the testimony to any wartime (or peacetime) concentration camp testimony. Kudos to you if you can discern the difference.

There should be no doubts about the way in Christ being narrow judging by the responses on this thread. Too narrow it would seem for moderns.

 

[aspen]

God wants to be in relationship with us. He did not tell us that the road to the Kingdom is 'narrow' in the same way a country club tells perspective members that their club is 'exclusive'. Instead, Jesus was talking about the nature of the journey - like a dietitian speaking to a person with diabetes - not everyone with diabetes is going to avoid complications - the road is narrow. Sometimes Christians act like the Kingdom road is the only narrow road out there.

As far as the Kingdom of God being like a concentration camp - it is more like freedom from a concentration camp. The Kingdom of God is freedom and peace of mind - it embraces all of life's pain and trials with the attitude of love and gratitude. Any Christian with a bitter heart has not experienced the Kingdom in their heart - it is true salvation from the prison of this world and will carry over to the next. It is not about acting good, it is about being perfected by learning to love through all circumstances.

Watching addicts learn how to stop acting out their addiction is eye opening because when they first realize that they have a problem with a substance, they feel deprived when they find out they can no longer have it - it can lead to terrible bitterness and a death of the spirit ( dry-drunk). Yet, if they learn to embrace the freedom that freely giving up their addiction can bring - learn to be grateful for every sober day God has given them - it brings everything they have ever wanted from the substance; peace of mind.

 

[Episkopos]

God wants to be in relationship with us. He did not tell us that the road to the Kingdom is 'narrow' in the same way a country club tells perspective members that their club is 'exclusive'. Instead, Jesus was talking about the nature of the journey - like a dietitian speaking to a person with diabetes - not everyone with diabetes is going to avoid complications - the road is narrow. Sometimes Christians act like the Kingdom road is the only narrow road out there.

As far as the Kingdom of God being like a concentration camp - it is more like freedom from a concentration camp. The Kingdom of God is freedom and peace of mind - it embraces all of life's pain and trials with the attitude of love and gratitude. Any Christian with a bitter heart has not experienced the Kingdom in their heart - it is true salvation from the prison of this world and will carry over to the next. It is not about acting good, it is about being perfected by learning to love through all circumstances.

Watching addicts learn how to stop acting out their addiction is eye opening because when they first realize that they have a problem with a substance, they feel deprived when they find out they can no longer have it - it can lead to terrible bitterness and a death of the spirit ( dry-drunk). Yet, if they learn to embrace the freedom that freely giving up their addiction can bring - learn to be grateful for every sober day God has given them - it brings everything they have ever wanted from the substance; peace of mind.

Fish die in the open air. Men die in water. A person who lives by the Spirit craves the community of the saints. A carnal person craves personal freedom.