What is freewill?
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putrid retort. What have you just done with your "freewill"?Men are born slaves to sin, under the control and power of a sin nature only worthy of Gods Wrath Eph 2:2-3
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Its not until God in mercy imparts unto us a new dynamic, Regeneration, Spiritual life, that we can be set free from the power and control of the sinful nature we operate under by nature
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Its not until God in mercy imparts unto us a new dynamic, Regeneration, Spiritual life, that we can be set free from the power and control of the sinful nature we operate under by nature
God's Omniscience is not causative. While what God foreknows is absolutely certain, it is not His foreknowledge that makes it certain. In the case of man's free will, through His foreknowledge, God knows for certain, what CHOICES man will make.
Before being born again, not everything the person does is sinful. And after being born again, not everything a person does is sin free. In REgeneration, one is not set free of the desires of the flesh and of the mind. In REgeneration, first, one is forgiven of his sin and second, he is given the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit in his fight against succumbing to the desires of the flesh and of the mind.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
No, that's backwards. God does not "foreknow" the matters of men in their times according to the ways of this world, but it is rather man and the world that only know what they know according to this world, which is only a small and limited part of the greater whole and complete knowledge of God who has no beginning or end, and who created mankind only to know all as it is revealed to them/us on an historic timeline that doesn't even exist with God making foreknowledge an impossibility.
Understanding both mankind and God in their proper contexts is why Paul came to emphasize the need for "rightly dividing the word of truth"--because it really makes no sense to mix the timeless matters of God with the timed release of revealed knowledge to mankind. In other words, our coming to know what is true upon a created timeline actually has no bearing on the truth that is not (on that timeline). Words then like "foreknowledge" or "predestined"--even or especially in scripture--are only man or time-speak used in translation to give relevance to a people who know nothing more--like speaking to a child about mature adult matters they will eventually learn, but are otherwise just confusing and premature. God is the best of parents, simply rearing us according to--not His--but our limited ability to receive and understand. Thus, just as God limited Moses' ability to see Him, lest he be destroyed, He is likewise limiting our exposure to all truth (lest it be so shocking we be destroyed). And this place and its pre-reality terms where all things come to us "here a little, there a little" is not meant to be a place where we establish our own truth according to our own lack of fully understanding and begin to adopt the fleeting terms of our adolescence as gospel--which they are not. No, but we are to "press on" even to "leave behind the elementary principles of Christ."
So, no, do not camp here and slumber, but "rise, let us be going"--the very thing Christ told his disciples before He was taken.
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Based upon that, I don't think you have a very good understanding of God's foreknowledge. God's foreknowledge has nothing to do with "revealed knowledge to mankind".
God's foreknowledge is simply His omniscience with respect to the future. Omniscience is defined as “the state of having total and perfect knowledge, the quality of knowing everything.” For God to be sovereign over His creation of all things, whether visible or invisible, He has to be all-knowing.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
So I guess both Peter and Paul didn't really know what they were talking about. Interesting.
But you are right, I am not ready for your brand of whatever.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Free Will has something to do with the capacity to make choices in the face of alternatives.
Somethings are automatically done, like breathing and blinking are eyes. Sure, we can choose to do these things but they are, for the most part, on automatic pilot. Digesting food is more so on automatic pilot.
Free Will has to be contrasted with circumstances driving actions that rule out choices. That is, there are only apparent choices but upon deeper inspection, they were driven to it. Examplies include manslaughter and stealing. Most people realize one can get so mad, say upon seeing their spouse cheating, that this act precipated the reaction. Therefore, we differentiate from the Free Will choice of Murder in the 1st degree.
Few people would not have sympathy for someone stealing food who is starving to death.
The most basic choice is one has to choose to think.
Hope this helps.
Somethings are automatically done, like breathing and blinking are eyes. Sure, we can choose to do these things but they are, for the most part, on automatic pilot. Digesting food is more so on automatic pilot.
Free Will has to be contrasted with circumstances driving actions that rule out choices. That is, there are only apparent choices but upon deeper inspection, they were driven to it. Examplies include manslaughter and stealing. Most people realize one can get so mad, say upon seeing their spouse cheating, that this act precipated the reaction. Therefore, we differentiate from the Free Will choice of Murder in the 1st degree.
Few people would not have sympathy for someone stealing food who is starving to death.
The most basic choice is one has to choose to think.
Hope this helps.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I don't know. I'm pretty confident the sun will come up tomorrow.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Such a thing can only exist on a timeline.
But good, that's you considering the matter from your own perspective. But the issue is not limited to the timeline perspective of mankind, because the idea of "freewill" comes from God...because here on this timeline we are at least seemingly given a choice to make. So then which is it--is it just a matter of men and not of God? Then why even go there, why choose, if God who gives us the choice is not even in the equation?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
free will is the ability to chose
we make free will decisions every day, whether we are saved or lost.
we make free will decisions every day, whether we are saved or lost.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Thanks for joining in.
But the greater issue that freewill only fits into, is understanding eternity vs. time and the terminology used to describe their interface. In other words, if we only consider the matter from our timeline perspective, we only have the smaller half of the information.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Whether or not you believe it, God showed me in a vortex in my mind how He had control of my life from the beginning of my life to the point of my Born again salvation. A Christian college professor I was speaking to, told me about the Holy Spirit vortex, and he asked me if I saw it, and I said I did. God knows everything you do before you do it and records your thoughts and everything you say. There is more than any of us know that is going on in the hidden spirit world. But rest assured there is a battle for your soul happening, and Jesus is protecting us.
Lk 8:17: For nothing is secret, that shall not be revealed; neither anything hidden, that shall not be known and come light
1 Cor 4:5: Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God
Rev 12:10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Psalm 139 -
O Lord, you have examined my heart
and know everything about me.
2 You know when I sit down or stand up.
You know my thoughts even when I’m far away.
3 You see me when I travel
and when I rest at home.
You know everything I do.
4 You know what I am going to say
even before I say it, Lord.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
UNDERSTANDING FREEWILL:
Regarding the issue of "freewill", the confusion is due to our not clearly understanding the context difference between time and eternity, leaving most to believe that freewill is relative to our living in time. It's not, but is instead relative to eternity.
Why is that important? Because just as Christ chose of His own freewill to go to the cross "before the foundation of the world" (before time), we too made our freewill choice "before" time. This life then--which we should be coming to understand more fully as we mature--is rather the result of that "before" freewill decision, and we are just no walking it out.
Again, why is that important? Because we should be decreasing and Jesus (in us) increasing as we approach Oneness with Him as He and the Father are One. Meaning, that we should be working towards "I am" thinking as opposed to "I was" or "I will be" (which is the time-based perspective)...when there is actually no "pre"(destination), "fore"(knowledge), or "time" in the "I am", "eternity", or the "Oneness" of God. In other words, to hold onto our time-based perspective of such things is to reject His Oneness. None of which can fully be understood without realizing that God through the scriptures has only used such terms and words as a means of talking to children who have not been ready for the otherwise shocking reality of eternity, but have needed to be spoon-fed "here a little, there a little" over time. This is the grace of God, but the would-be drawn out process and such terms as "predestination" and "foreknowledge" is not to be considered anything more than tools for our learning, to be discarded once we are ready to enter into His Oneness.
A good example of the use of child-like, or time-like language in the scriptures when it is not the whole truth of the matter, is the use of explaining the nature of God which is best said as "I am", by saying He "is the same yesterday, today, and forever" when there is actually no past, present, or future with God. So, these would-be contradictory terms are only even true when "eternity" is the only thing that is actually true, and when "time" is only incrementally broken down for the sake of explanation...meaning that there is no actual truth or reality to time. Go figure, even scientifically, time is a mere illusion.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I could not make a decision before time. I was not even in existence yet.
But before time God (being omniscient) and could see my free will choice in this time. and chose to save me based on that future free will decision.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Lots of guessing and inserting opinion and drawing conclusions based upon you rown feelings.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
That is not how it works. Here is how it actually works:
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
Psalm 139:15-16
When my bones were being formed, carefully put together in my mother's womb, when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there— you saw me before I was born. The days allotted to me had all been recorded in your book, before any of them ever began.
We consider things by our own understanding and according to times in this world, but the scriptures explain it differently as timeless, before time.
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