What is freewill?

[Eternally Grateful]

That is not how it works. Here is how it actually works:

Jeremiah 1:5​

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”​

​

Psalm 139:15-16​

When my bones were being formed, carefully put together in my mother's womb, when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there— you saw me before I was born. The days allotted to me had all been recorded in your book, before any of them ever began.​

​

We consider things by our own understanding and according to times in this world, but the scriptures explain it differently as timeless, before time.

Thank you for showing me I was correct.

Like I said, GOD KNEW US.

We were not there before.

He knew everything we would freely chose.

 

[Wrangler]

The point is, there is no such thing as "foreknowledge."

I don't know. I'm pretty confident the sun will come up tomorrow.

Such a thing can only exist on a timeline.

But good, that's you considering the matter from your own perspective. But the issue is not limited to the timeline perspective of mankind, because the idea of "freewill" comes from God...

Oy vey! The only benefit of science is it's predictive power. Although we were talking about Free Will, you changed the subject to denying foreknowledge for some reason.

Rather than admit foreknowledge is a thing that exists, you double down by introducing other variables: individual perspective, timeline dependence and an idea coming from God. Friend, you are jumping all over the place. Getting back to Free Will, I choose to end our exchange here.

 

[Wrangler]

UNDERSTANDING FREEWILL:

Regarding the issue of "freewill", the confusion is due to our not clearly understanding the context difference between time and eternity, leaving most to believe that freewill is relative to our living in time. It's not, but is instead relative to eternity.

What confusion? One cannot understand something by immediately driving it into the ditch of epistemological confusion. God does not depend on Free Will. Free Will depends on God.

Obviously, you are implying a Calvinistic dichotomy. The notion of time is like Free Will. God does not depend on time. Time depends on God. Because we are temporal creatures, we cannot conceive of reality outside of time. Yet, that is the certain state of the Creator of time.

It's really all besides the point of God knowing what choices people make.

If there is no Free Will, we really have to re-examine our criminal and legal justice system.

 

[ScottA]

Thank you for showing me I was correct.

Like I said, GOD KNEW US.

We were not there before.

He knew everything we would freely chose.

You are not hearing even yourself.

If God knew us (past tense), it is because we were (past tense) available for Him to know us then (past tense). It's all past tense--except our knowing and it being revealed to us.

If you don't yet know it...perhaps a little longer.

 

[ScottA]

What confusion? One cannot understand something by immediately driving it into the ditch of epistemological confusion. God does not depend on Free Will. Free Will depends on God.

Obviously, you are implying a Calvinistic dichotomy. The notion of time is like Free Will. God does not depend on time. Time depends on God. Because we are temporal creatures, we cannot conceive of reality outside of time. Yet, that is the certain state of the Creator of time.

It's really all besides the point of God knowing what choices people make.

If there is no Free Will, we really have to re-examine our criminal and legal justice system.

Haha!

So goes the discussion...but in God's reality--the only reality, Time is simply the [created] means by which God incrementally reveals His preconceived will from start to finish, "but each one in his own order." "Then come the end" (of time). "It is finished." "Seven days and then He finished..." past tense from any point except in the mind of those to whom it has not yet become clear.

These things are all written too--much of which is written in past tense.

 

[JBO]

Your thinking and guessing (your words) shows that you are relying on your understanding. And refusing to consider what is beyond your understanding, is a self-imposed limitation.

Well, if you think there is no such thing as God's foreknowledge (your words in reply #27), then it would be you who are relying on your understanding and refusing to consider what is beyond your understanding.

 

[ScottA]

Well, if you think there is no such thing as God's foreknowledge (your words in reply #27), then it would be you who are relying on your understanding and refusing to consider what is beyond your understanding.

FOREKNOWLEDGE
noun

1. awareness of something before it happens or exists

You're missing the point. "Fore" means before, but it doesn't mean that God exists within any before-and-after context where the things of God and the things of this world exist on the same timeline. Unlike this world God has no beginning or end. Which means there is no actual chronology regarding God and this world. Therefore even the saying "before the foundation of the world" is simply a figure of speech meaning even before time, for God indeed was before.

Thus, the proper way to speak of the so called foreknowledge of God, is as "prearrangement." Which is to say, God made manifest--not actually what would be, but what "was" (even before)...or as Jesus referred to His own existence spoken of by men as "before", but stated by Him in clarification, said, (before Abraham was) "I am." No actual fore or after.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are not hearing even yourself.

If God knew us (past tense), it is because we were (past tense) available for Him to know us then (past tense). It's all past tense--except our knowing and it being revealed to us.

If you don't yet know it...perhaps a little longer.

Your making things up.

God knew us because he is omniscient. As David said, you formed me in before in my mothers womb.

How could we be formed if we already existed.

 

[JBO]

FOREKNOWLEDGE
noun

1. awareness of something before it happens or exists

You're missing the point. "Fore" means before, but it doesn't mean that God exists within any before-and-after context where the things of God and the things of this world exist on the same timeline. Unlike this world God has no beginning or end. Which means there is no actual chronology regarding God and this world. Therefore even the saying "before the foundation of the world" is simply a figure of speech meaning even before time, for God indeed was before.

Thus, the proper way to speak of the so called foreknowledge of God, is as "prearrangement." Which is to say, God made manifest--not actually what would be, but what "was" (even before)...or as Jesus referred to His own existence spoken of by men as "before", but stated by Him in clarification, said, (before Abraham was) "I am." No actual fore or after.

Whether or not God exists within any before-and-after context is all rather moot. There is, without question, a before-and-after context to the things of this physical created world. And that is the context of God's scripturally recognized foreknowledge. There is no indication of how God's knows the end from the beginning, only that He does. And it has nothing to do with any "prearrangement". Your concept in that is a long denounced false theology known as "Open Theism" which says that God only foreknows those things that He has predestined.

God's foreknowledge is simply His omniscience relative to the future events. Below are a few verses that speak to God's foreknowledge:

Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them."

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."


There are many more, specifically the long list of prophecies contained in the both the OT and the NT. To say or even think that there is no such thing as God's foreknowledge is an affront to God. God's foreknowledge and God's "prearrangement" are two completely separate and distinct attributes of God.

 

[brightfame52]

Before being born again, not everything the person does is sinful. And after being born again, not everything a person does is sin free. In REgeneration, one is not set free of the desires of the flesh and of the mind. In REgeneration, first, one is forgiven of his sin and second, he is given the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit in his fight against succumbing to the desires of the flesh and of the mind.

Before being born again, man is dead in sin, a slave to sin, his will therefore is a slave to sin. And yes everything we do as a slave to sin is sinful in spiritual matters. They are called dead works Heb 9:14


How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[JBO]

Before being born again, man is dead in sin, a slave to sin, his will therefore is a slave to sin. And yes everything we do as a slave to sin is sinful in spiritual matters. They are called dead works Heb 9:14


How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Yes, Hebrews 9:14 does speak to dead works. However, it does not say that "everything we do as a slave to sin is sinful in spiritual matters." That is simply your own interpretation. I am not saying you are wrong, only that Hebrews 9:14 doesn't say that.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, Hebrews 9:14 does speak to dead works. However, it does not say that "everything we do as a slave to sin is sinful in spiritual matters." That is simply your own interpretation. I am not saying you are wrong, only that Hebrews 9:14 doesn't say that.

They are dead works. Thats that

 

[ScottA]

Your making things up.

God knew us because he is omniscient. As David said, you formed me in before in my mothers womb.

How could we be formed if we already existed.

No, not making it up.

There is a difference in us existing in God and being made manifest in the world (our mother's womb).

 

[ScottA]

Whether or not God exists within any before-and-after context is all rather moot. There is, without question, a before-and-after context to the things of this physical created world. And that is the context of God's scripturally recognized foreknowledge. There is no indication of how God's knows the end from the beginning, only that He does. And it has nothing to do with any "prearrangement". Your concept in that is a long denounced false theology known as "Open Theism" which says that God only foreknows those things that He has predestined.

God's foreknowledge is simply His omniscience relative to the future events. Below are a few verses that speak to God's foreknowledge:

Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them."

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."


There are many more, specifically the long list of prophecies contained in the both the OT and the NT. To say or even think that there is no such thing as God's foreknowledge is an affront to God. God's foreknowledge and God's "prearrangement" are two completely separate and distinct attributes of God.

I am not trying to debate or even discuss this matter, but simply set straight what is said regarding the truth from God...which is needed with each post that you have addressed to me.

In this post you error in saying "There is no indication of how God's knows the end from the beginning, only that He does." Which indeed is indicated in that God is all knowing (1 John 3:20) and "the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).

As for "prearrangement"...the word for "foreknowledge" in the original language is also defined as "prearrangement", which I only offered because you seemed to have the wrong idea about the foreknowledge of God as if it were some sort of ability by God to predict the future--which is the thinking of men and completely false.

As for "Open Theism"...I don't dabble in 'isms", but you have not even correctly defined the term, and in so doing you have accused me of holding a position completely opposite of what I have told you. To be clear: "Future" only exist within the context of the times of this world, and not with God who "is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Which is the very thing you seem to be stumbling over, and seem to be denying. My point then, is that to fully understand "freewill", one needs to understand that freewill does not originate within the past, present, or future of the times of this world--but within in God who formed us before the world was.

 

[quietthinker]

What is freewill?​

The choice to wipe your backside or not!

 

[JBO]

I am not trying to debate or even discuss this matter, but simply set straight what is said regarding the truth from God...which is needed with each post that you have addressed to me.

In this post you error in saying "There is no indication of how God's knows the end from the beginning, only that He does." Which indeed is indicated in that God is all knowing (1 John 3:20) and "the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).

As for "prearrangement"...the word for "foreknowledge" in the original language is also defined as "prearrangement", which I only offered because you seemed to have the wrong idea about the foreknowledge of God as if it were some sort of ability by God to predict the future--which is the thinking of men and completely false.

As for "Open Theism"...I don't dabble in 'isms", but you have not even correctly defined the term, and in so doing you have accused me of holding a position completely opposite of what I have told you. To be clear: "Future" only exist within the context of the times of this world, and not with God who "is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Which is the very thing you seem to be stumbling over, and seem to be denying. My point then, is that to fully understand "freewill", one needs to understand that freewill does not originate within the past, present, or future of the times of this world--but within in God who formed us before the world was.

From Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Foreknow, Foreknowledge

A. Verb.

proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.

B. Noun.

prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.

From Strong's Greek Dictionary:

G4268

πρόγνωσις

prognōsis

prog'-no-sis

From G4267; forethought: - foreknowledge.

Perhaps you took your definition from Thayer's Greek dictionary. You have to be a little careful of Thayer. It too often is swayed by a decidedly preconceived theological view. That view is too often geared toward a Calvinistic translation/interpretation.

The Greek word πρόγνωσις [prognōsis] is from πρό [pro] plus ́γνωσις [gnōsis]. Even Thayer limits the meaning of gnosis to knowledge and does not include any form of "arrange". In fact, the word prearrange or prearrangement doesn't even appear anywhere in the NT. The word predestine does appear in the NT but that has no definitional connection with foreknow.

 

[ScottA]

From Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Foreknow, Foreknowledge

A. Verb.

proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.

B. Noun.

prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.

From Strong's Greek Dictionary:

G4268

πρόγνωσις

prognōsis

prog'-no-sis

From G4267; forethought: - foreknowledge.

Perhaps you took your definition from Thayer's Greek dictionary. You have to be a little careful of Thayer. It too often is swayed by a decidedly preconceived theological view. That view is too often geared toward a Calvinistic translation/interpretation.

The Greek word πρόγνωσις [prognōsis] is from πρό [pro] plus ́γνωσις [gnōsis]. Even Thayer limits the meaning of gnosis to knowledge and does not include any form of "arrange". In fact, the word prearrange or prearrangement doesn't even appear anywhere in the NT. The word predestine does appear in the NT but that has no definitional connection with foreknow.

I have given you the truth from God, a clarification of the misconceptions of men throughout the ages which you have quoted. Corrections are just a part of what was to come. The reactions within that same time-based misunderstanding are also predictable. Go figure. You don't have to believe any of it, but all will come to know the truth. That's the point: The world is not the exercise of freewill, but the revelation of it after the fact. Then comes the end.

 

[JBO]

I have given you the truth from God,

Anytime someone tells me that or something similar, I know immediately to dismiss it as bogus information, unless of course it is accompanied by some sign, wonder or miracle to authenticate the source.

 

[ScottA]

Anytime someone tells me that or something similar, I know immediately to dismiss it as bogus information, unless of course it is accompanied by some sign, wonder or miracle to authenticate the source.

And you have it: "A wicked and adulterous generation."

 

[JBO]

And you have it: "A wicked and adulterous generation."

I don't know what you mean by that.