Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[Ziggy]

I don't think that's the dilemma, to be honest. I think he does know Paul was teaching "somebody" (as in a group of people) about "somebody else" (as in about a different group of people). I asked him who in his opinion Paul was talking TO about "THEM" and who "THEY" are. But he hasn't answered yet. Maybe he still will.

Maybe he is still learning.
We aught to be patient.

Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

My grandmother on my mother's side was the great-great granddaughter of one of the 1820 British settlers in South Africa (a well-known historical year in South African history, but she also had Dutch and French ancestry).

My great-grandmother (my grandmother's mother in law) was partly a descendant of the French Huguenots who settled in the 17th century (late 1600's) in South Africa, and partly of Dutch descent. When she was a little girl she was in a British concentration camp erected for Boer wives and children whose farms and lands the British had burned in a scorched-earth policy while their husbands were away fighting the British in the Anglo-Boer war.

All German on my father's side.

My roots in South Africa go deep, but nowadays myself and all those who look like me are considered by many people here a "settler" or a "colonialist", just like Jews in Israel are considered "settlers" and "colonialists" by many Arabs.

Anyway, that's politics, and life.

My greats.... came over on the mayflower. My dad used to keep track of the family tree. We settled in Maine which originally was Massachusetts. And King George sold 1000's of Acres to the Carter family which was divided over the years.
At present I am living on about 3 acres of what was given to this branch of the tree and it will pass on to my daughter and my grandson.

I grew up in Boston, a walk away from where Paul Rever made his famous ride and the Old North church.
Lot of history here. But before that the data is missing, lost in fires and old age.
I may never know the actual root of the tree. But I suppose we all come from Noah and his clan.
Japheth I believe went towards the north where the anglicans come from.
Ham to the south to Africa and Egypt.
And Shem stayed in the middle east and perhaps to the east of Asia.

I tried to follow the lineage according to the bible. Generation by generation. But a lot of them just drop off.
The lost tribes.. of all kinds of peoples.
Under one God, to become one nation, with Liberty and Justice for all.

Someday..

Hugs

 

[covenantee]

You ask a stupid question you get a stupid answer.

I was attempting to confirm your claim that "If Gentiles are saved then they are no longer Gentiles is the language the Bible is using."

So it must be a stupid claim.

 

[PinSeeker]

He called Jews and Gentiles to be Christian.

He certainly did, yes.

He did not call Christians to be Jewish Christians.

No, but He surely called many ethnic Jews to be Christian, as you said. And as such they are Jewish Christians. God calls folks from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

I think God called everyone and only certain people answered the call.

Ahhhhh, here we go. Yes, God calls everyone in a certain sense ~ the general call of the Gospel is to everyone, and in that sense is what we call the outward call. But there is an inward call that God only issues by His Spirit to those who He chooses, His elect. This can be seen all over Scripture, Old and New Testament alike, but it is clearest in Romans 9-11, Ephesians 1-2, and 1 Peter 1.

In Ephesians 1:4, it says God chose us in Christ beforehand, and in Revelation 17:8, it says certain names have been written in a book from the foundation of the world. It's the group, the body of Christ that is foreordained from the foundation of the world, and not specific individuals selected by God for salvation.

Hmmm... God chose us beforehand, and certain names have been written in this book from the foundation of the world. But the individual members of this group are not selected by God...

Who is the author of this book, Peterlag? :)

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

"The Word" (Logos) in John 1 is referring to Jesus. Jesus is the total Message ~ everything that God wants to communicate to man. As we read in Hebrews 1, "Long ago... God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." The Word (Jesus) is the full embodiment of all that is God (Colossians 1:19, 2:9; John 14:9). People found it easy to disregard the message of an invisible God and continued in their sin and rebellion. So the Message became flesh, took on human form, and came to dwell among us (Matthew 1:23; Romans 8:3; Philippians 2:5-11). The Greeks used the word logos to refer to one’s “mind,” “reason,” or “wisdom.” John used this Greek concept to communicate the fact that Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, is the self-expression of God to the world.

It's not a matter of it agreeing with me. It's a matter of not agreeing with God since that language of "Gentile Christians" is not mentioned in the New Testament.

Worldly ethnicity of anyone is never disregarded anywhere in God's Word.

If Gentiles are saved then they are no longer Gentiles is the language the Bible is using.

Well, ethnicity has no eternal consequence. But there are Christians who ethnically are Gentiles, Christians who are ethnically Jewish, and so on... as I said, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. Their identity is in Christ, not in their earthly ethnicity. So no, that's not "the language the Bible is using," but rather that who and what they are is far above their earthly ethnicity, that they are now ~ as Paul says in Ephesians 2, no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.

It's a big deal because without guys like me there will be guys like you posting data about Romans 11 and saying it's about Christians when the subject matter is not about Christians.

Well, Romans 11 is a continuation and finally a closing to God's plan of salvation for "all of Israel" (Romans 11:26), which will, eventually, consist of all of those elect of God, those singled out and chosen by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1), His elect.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ziggy]

Ahhhhh, here we go. Yes, God calls everyone in a certain sense ~ the general call of the Gospel is to everyone, and in that sense is what we call the outward call. But there is an inward call that God only issues by His Spirit to those who He chooses, His elect. This can be seen all over Scripture, Old and New Testament alike, but it is clearest in Romans 9-11, Ephesians 1-2, and 1 Peter 1.

I can see this.
God chose out certain people to perform certain functions in the church such as teachers, preachers, healers.. etc.
But not everyone is given a specific position. Most are just the hmm layman. The listeners, the learners, the hopers.
I'm a student. I think I'll always be a student. I don't feel a call to be anything more than Mary sitting at Jesus' feet listening and learning.
But to be an example in whatever role we do play is the most important role of all.
IMHO.
To bear good fruit. To love one another. To be honest and truthful. To cause no harm to another.
These things we are all called to do and be.
Hugs

 

[PinSeeker]

I can see this.
God chose out certain people to perform certain functions in the church such as teachers, preachers, healers.. etc.
But not everyone is given a specific position. Most are just the hmm layman. The listeners, the learners, the hopers.
I'm a student. I think I'll always be a student. I don't feel a call to be anything more than Mary sitting at Jesus' feet listening and learning.
But to be an example in whatever role we do play is the most important role of all.
IMHO.
To bear good fruit. To love one another. To be honest and truthful. To cause no harm to another.
These things we are all called to do and be.
Hugs

I would say, Ziggy ~ and you might agree ~ that... Well, you're talking about gifts of the Spirit, which Paul talks about in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12. And I agree, but I would say that none of us are limited to one spiritual gift, but that one or two may be far dominant to the others in each of us. As Paul says, "All these (gifts) are empowered by one and the same Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as He (the Father) wills." So, regarding these gifts of the Spirit, there is not a mutual exclusiveness in any one believer, but that God has made some stronger in this one and/or that one than others... But even so, as Paul says, we are "each... given (a) manifestation of the Spirit for the common good." In other words, we are to use our spiritual gifts accordingly to glorify God, of course, but also for the benefit of others. This is God's plan. Yes, He has given us Jesus, and that's the ultimate gift. But on a human level, He has also given us each other. And of course He is at work in all of us in all of this, as Paul says in Philippians 2:13.

Don't mean to say any of this as if you don't know; I know you do. :)

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Davy]

Incorrect.

That's exactly the problem, orthodox unbelieving Jews that think their status 'without' Christ Jesus and The New Covenant will somehow still save them. It won't. And that's what their false Replacement Theology category they made up amounts to, a DENIAL of God's Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

That's exactly the problem, orthodox unbelieving Jews that think their status 'without' Christ Jesus and The New Covenant will somehow still save them. It won't. And that's what their false Replacement Theology category they made up amounts to, a DENIAL of God's Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ.

Um, you should Google the definition of Replacement theology before commenting. It is clear you do not know what it entails.

 

[Davy]

Um, you should Google the definition of Replacement theology before commenting. It is clear you do not know what it entails.

Google the definition of Replacement Theory?

What a CROCK!

Should I also trust definitions of men's theories of Preterism, Full Preterism, Futurism, Historicism, Dispensationalism, Hyper-Dispensationalism, and all other 'isms' from MEN'S MADE UP TRADITIONS?

You obviously have a whole lot to learn about the difference between God's Truth in His Word vs. the traditions of men.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Google the definition of Replacement Theory?

What a CROCK!

Should I also trust definitions of men's theories of Preterism, Full Preterism, Futurism, Historicism, Dispensationalism, Hyper-Dispensationalism, and all other 'isms' from MEN'S MADE UP TRADITIONS?

You obviously have a whole lot to learn about the difference between God's Truth in His Word vs. the traditions of men.

You shouldn't laugh at education. Google,Bing,Yahoo,Duck Duck Go, are search engines that bring a plethora of resources to choose from.

Your former statement about replacement theology,theory as you call it, is wrong.

You can't speak intelligently about a topic you clearly know nothing about.

And by the way, as a Christian,if you do identify as one, you're following a man made tradition. You're, if you do so, reading a man made book that you're told was inspired by God.


Wake up and learn something.

 

[Davy]

You shouldn't laugh at education. Google,Bing,Yahoo,Duck Duck Go, are search engines that bring a plethora of resources to choose from.

Your former statement about replacement theology,theory as you call it, is wrong.

You can't speak intelligently about a topic you clearly know nothing about.

And by the way, as a Christian,if you do identify as one, you're following a man made tradition. You're, if you do so, reading a man made book that you're told was inspired by God.


Wake up and learn something.

All you are trying... to do is mock my education in Jesus Christ, and even trying to exalt yourself with trying... to do it!

You only show your BIBLICAL ILLITERACY by your false attempt to mock my education in Jesus Christ.

The idea of 'REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY' is a FALSE JEWISH DOCTRINE FROM MEN. It is NOT Biblical!

And it is so... easy to realize that...

1. because God's Salvation Plan is ONLY through the saving Blood His Son Jesus Christ shed upon His cross, which is HOW Jesus of Nazareth brought The NEW COVENANT.

2. because the old covenant was ENDED BY THE INSTITUTING OF THE NEW COVENANT BY CHRIST'S SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS.

3. no one... can be saved by the old covenant. It is DEAD.

4. the orthodox unbelieving JEWS reject THE NEW COVENANT.

5. God's promises and blessings FOLLOW THE NEW COVENANT JESUS CHRIST, which ENDED the old covenant.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

All you are trying... to do is mock my education in Jesus Christ, and even trying to exalt yourself with trying... to do it!

You only show your BIBLICAL ILLITERACY by your false attempt to mock my education in Jesus Christ.

The idea of 'REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY' is a FALSE JEWISH DOCTRINE FROM MEN. It is NOT Biblical!

And it is so... easy to realize that...

1. because God's Salvation Plan is ONLY through the saving Blood His Son Jesus Christ shed upon His cross, which is HOW Jesus of Nazareth brought The NEW COVENANT.

2. because the old covenant was ENDED BY THE INSTITUTING OF THE NEW COVENANT BY CHRIST'S SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS.

3. no one... can be saved by the old covenant. It is DEAD.

4. the orthodox unbelieving JEWS reject THE NEW COVENANT.

5. God's promises and blessings FOLLOW THE NEW COVENANT JESUS CHRIST, which ENDED the old covenant.

So much for a sincere effort to correct your wrongful sins of pride and hubris.

 

[Davy]

So much for a sincere effort to correct your wrongful sins of pride and hubris.

I NEVER expected to get a sincere and truthful statement from someone like you that follow the Jew's doctrines.

I hope you eventually come to recognize The New Covenant which Jesus of Nazareth sealed on His cross with His Own Blood.

So just know, that as long as you wrongly believe that God's covenants and promises are still a part of the Jew's 'old' covenant, then you will not properly recognize Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

He certainly did, yes.


No, but He surely called many ethnic Jews to be Christian, as you said. And as such they are Jewish Christians. God calls folks from every tongue, tribe, and nation.


Ahhhhh, here we go. Yes, God calls everyone in a certain sense ~ the general call of the Gospel is to everyone, and in that sense is what we call the outward call. But there is an inward call that God only issues by His Spirit to those who He chooses, His elect. This can be seen all over Scripture, Old and New Testament alike, but it is clearest in Romans 9-11, Ephesians 1-2, and 1 Peter 1.


Hmmm... God chose us beforehand, and certain names have been written in this book from the foundation of the world. But the individual members of this group are not selected by God...

Who is the author of this book, Peterlag? :)


"The Word" (Logos) in John 1 is referring to Jesus. Jesus is the total Message ~ everything that God wants to communicate to man. As we read in Hebrews 1, "Long ago... God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." The Word (Jesus) is the full embodiment of all that is God (Colossians 1:19, 2:9; John 14:9). People found it easy to disregard the message of an invisible God and continued in their sin and rebellion. So the Message became flesh, took on human form, and came to dwell among us (Matthew 1:23; Romans 8:3; Philippians 2:5-11). The Greeks used the word logos to refer to one’s “mind,” “reason,” or “wisdom.” John used this Greek concept to communicate the fact that Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, is the self-expression of God to the world.


Worldly ethnicity of anyone is never disregarded anywhere in God's Word.


Well, ethnicity has no eternal consequence. But there are Christians who ethnically are Gentiles, Christians who are ethnically Jewish, and so on... as I said, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. Their identity is in Christ, not in their earthly ethnicity. So no, that's not "the language the Bible is using," but rather that who and what they are is far above their earthly ethnicity, that they are now ~ as Paul says in Ephesians 2, no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.


Well, Romans 11 is a continuation and finally a closing to God's plan of salvation for "all of Israel" (Romans 11:26), which will, eventually, consist of all of those elect of God, those singled out and chosen by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1), His elect.

Grace and peace to you.

This can be seen all over Scripture, Old and New Testament alike, but it is clearest in Romans 9-11, Ephesians 1-2, and 1 Peter 1.

Romans 9-11 is not Scripture proving that God called certain people. Don't you see how corrupt this becomes when we do not follow to whom it is addressed? And what verses are you talking about in Ephesians 1-2 and Peter 1?

 

[Peterlag]

I was attempting to confirm your claim that "If Gentiles are saved then they are no longer Gentiles is the language the Bible is using."

So it must be a stupid claim.

I agree

 

[Peterlag]

Stop side-stepping the question.

Who is Paul talking TO about THEM?

@Peterlag You've admitted you do not believe in the Trinity, but you have not said whether you are Modalist, Monarchian, Unitarian, JW, Mormon, or what your belief is. It would help to know?

I don't side-step questions. If you can't understand then you can't understand. I am not a Modalist, Monarchian, Unitarian, JW, or Mormon.

 

[Peterlag]

It's not "my ideas". There are many who see all the ways in which Joseph is a type of Christ when they read Genesis, and there is enough teaching on it easily accessible in the Internet . You are exposing once again by your own words either your own ignorance of scripture, or you own lack of understanding of scripture.

I will take that as you have no Scripture on the subject. Here's one for you... What are the three parts of God? I will give you two. You give me the third...

1.) Spirit
2.) Jesus
3.) _______

 

[PinSeeker]

Romans 9-11 is not Scripture proving that God called certain people.

That's exactly what it is. Romans 9-11 is about God calling His people Israel, His elect. He has mercy on whom He will, compassion on whom He will (Paul, quoting Moses, who quotes God in Exodus 33:18, in Romans 9:15, and restating it emphatically in Romans 9:18). And God's elect, while people of every tongue, tribe and nation ~Jew and Gentile, as it were ~ are a subset of all people. In Romans 10, Paul refers directly to Joel's quote of God in 2:32 in saying, "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved," and if you read Joel 2, you should quickly see that this 'everyone' is only those whom the LORD calls" ~ "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls." And finally, in Romans 11, Paul says, "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace..." (v.5) And keeping in mind that God has mercy/compassion on whom He wills and hardens whom He will, Paul states clearly that "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... (a)nd in this way all Israel will be saved." (vv.25-26)

Don't you see how corrupt this becomes when we do not follow to whom it is addressed?

And to whom do you believe it is addressed, Peterlag? This is a personal letter written by Paul to the Christians in Rome, hence the title of the epistle, Romans. And of course he says the same things in different ways to the Ephesians, the Colossians, the Thessalonians, etc.

And what verses are you talking about in Ephesians 1-2 and Peter 1?

In particular the bolded, emphasized here:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.​

In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory."​

[Ephesians 1:3-14]​

*********************************************************

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."​

[Ephesians 2 in its entirety]​

*********************************************************

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith ~ more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire ~ may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen Him, you love Him. Though you do not now see Him, you believe in Him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls."​

[1 Peter 1:3-9]​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

I will take that as you have no Scripture on the subject. Here's one for you... What are the three parts of God? I will give you two. You give me the third...

1.) Spirit
2.) Jesus
3.) _______

Where in the Bible do you read that Jesus is a "part" of God, or that God is three "parts"?

Have you never ever read anything about the person | face of Christ in the New Testament?

Who was Jesus obedient to while He was on earth?

Isaiah 55:10-11
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
so shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.

Who are the two verses below talking about? (thanks @ewq1938)

Psalm 78
35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the Most High God was their redeemer.

1 Corinthians 10:2-4
And all were baptized to Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't side-step questions. If you can't understand then you can't understand. I am not a Modalist, Monarchian, Unitarian, JW, or Mormon.

You would answer the question, if not to be polite, then to prove that you are not side-stepping the question. You're still side-stepping the question.