If you think Mary remained a virgin till she died, then bet on it

[Marymog]

Wrong, you can read the history of it here: History of Catholic Mariology - Wikipedia

The belief of the perpetual virgin was created well after Christianity began.

But around 600 AD Catholics began creating churches devoted to Mary, something the bible clearly speaks against: see Matthew 17 as the disciples were chastised for even considering such a thing.

WIKIPEDIA is your source to prove me wrong!!

2 days later: I've stopped laughing now. Let's talk Dev!

First off, WHY would you use Wikipedia as your source for a teaching of The Catholic Church? Why wouldn't you just go here: The Holy See

Second off, you gave your opinion that the "belief of the perpetual virgin was created well after Christianity began". But you gave NOTHING to back up that opinion. Define "well after Christianity began". Is 50 years after the death of an Apostle WELL after????

Your 600AD opinon about creating churches devoted to Mary is void of any facts or evidence. Are you going to back up ANYTHING you say with facts or evidence?

You got some homework to do so that you can convince me kiddo......

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

This OP is about betting with money. Please read the OP carefully.

Ok....I will change my question:

You are turning a 2,000-year teaching of The Church into a mathematical equation AND gambling with money. Why?

 

[Marymog]

No, I never said you told me to blindly follow the elders of my church..This is a fabrication also..

I asked you to tell me why I should do what you say when the jews did that very same thing, yet crucified christ.

Your deflecting..

You have done this before though. You have never answered this question. Nor do i expect you to answer it.

Eg.....You have me sooooo confused I don't know what else there is to say. When YOU SAY that you will not blindly follow anyone AND we are talking about submitting to the elders of The Church and then you to act like there is no equation between 'anyone' and 'elders' so that you can prove me wrong and say that I am fabricating something makes you dishonest.....but I am moving on from that.

I will TRY and answer your question ONE MORE TIME of which I believe I already have.

I, Marymog, understand that YOU believe that the Jews submitted to their elders, and they crucified Christ. I don't believe that. I have already addressed that in a previous post (#101).

I, Marymog, am not telling you, as you have accused me, to obey your elders and submit to them. Scripture tells you to do that. I made that clear in a previous post (#86).

CLEARLY I am not deflecting and have not been deflecting. BUT I will answer in a way that I THINK you want me to answer so you can't make the false allegation that I am deflecting:

I, Marymog, want you, Eternally Grateful, to obey your elders and submit to them because Scripture tells you to obey your elders and submit to them. I, Marymog, believe if we follow the instructions that God gave us we will be saved and I, Marymog, want you, Eternally Grateful, to be saved along with me. I, Marymog, feel bad for you, Eternally Grateful, that you have not found a church with elders that you can trust to follow so that you can fulfill the word of God. I, Marymog, have found that Church spoken of in Scripture! You haven't.

Is that better EG?

Mary

 

[TonyChanYT]

Ok....I will change my question:

You are turning a 2,000-year teaching of The Church into a mathematical equation AND gambling with money. Why?

Please read the OP carefully. The answer is there.

 

[Marymog]

She does not understand, any history that her church rejected would have been destroyed.

Where is the evidence for this allegation?

I know, I know, all the evidence for your allegation was destroyed so you can't back up what you say. You and @dev553344 crack me up.

All the evidence we could provide has been destroyed but we have no evidence that that evidence was destroyed and we have no evidence that OUR evidence was destroyed we just KNOW it was destroyed........

 

[Marymog]

Please read the OP carefully. The answer is there.

I am not trying to be obstinate or offensive Tony but I don't see the "answer".

What I clearly see is you putting a mathematical equation on the 2,000-year teaching of Mary's Perpetual Virginity AND the validity of The Shroud of Turin.

You even admit it yourself: Luckily, there is a mathematically sound answer to this question.

I have given you my answer on what I believe. You have not given me your answer. If you want to have a conversation, then answer. If you don't want to have a conversation and only want to use me in your math project....COUNT ME OUT!

So, once again, I ask you WHY are you turning a 2,000-year teaching of Christianity into a mathematical equation?

Patient Mary

 

[TonyChanYT]

So, once again, I ask you WHY are you turning a 2,000-year teaching of Christianity into a mathematical equation?

This is not a lotto/gambling bet. This is a bet to mathematically and scientifically measure the strength of your belief. Put money where your mouth is. I am interested in finding out the strength of your belief mathematically. See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability.

This is about you and your beliefs. How strongly do you believe what you say you believe? Do you want to find out the strength of your belief? If you do, then bet on it. If you don't, ignore it.

For more scientific justification, click the link.

 

[Augustin56]

Here's a good article that covers a discussion about both sides of the argument:

Was Mary a Perpetual Virgin?

Some Christians teach that the Blessed Virgin Mary was not a perpetual virgin. How can Catholics answer the most common objections? Click here.

www.catholic.com

 

[Lambano]

Gamblers Anonymous

In case somebody has a gambling problem here....

 

[Marymog]

This is not a lotto/gambling bet. This is a bet to mathematically and scientifically measure the strength of your belief. Put money where your mouth is. I am interested in finding out the strength of your belief mathematically. See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability.

This is about you and your beliefs. How strongly do you believe what you say you believe? Do you want to find out the strength of your belief? If you do, then bet on it. If you don't, ignore it.

For more scientific justification, click the link.

WHY are you turning a 2,000-year teaching of Christianity into a mathematical equation?

 

[Marymog]

Please read the OP carefully. The answer is there.

You say it's there. I don't see it.

 

[Marymog]

For more scientific justification, click the link.

Why? Do you get $ every time someone clicks on the link?

I see nobody has commented on your link. Are you trying to get comments and start a discussion? What is your real goal?

Seriously......I answered 10 on P2.

That is that is saying I 100% believe the teachings of Scripture and The Church. There is no mathematical or scientific measure of belief. Either it's true or it isn't.

Let proposition P1 = Will TonyChan get Marymog to mathematically challenge her beliefs using science.
P2 = Will Marymog say math and science has nothing to do with belief.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

 

[TonyChanYT]

I sense there may be a problem here.

E.g.?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Eg.....You have me sooooo confused I don't know what else there is to say. When YOU SAY that you will not blindly follow anyone AND we are talking about submitting to the elders of The Church and then you to act like there is no equation between 'anyone' and 'elders' so that you can prove me wrong and say that I am fabricating something makes you dishonest.....but I am moving on from that.

I will TRY and answer your question ONE MORE TIME of which I believe I already have.

I, Marymog, understand that YOU believe that the Jews submitted to their elders, and they crucified Christ. I don't believe that. I have already addressed that in a previous post (#101).

I, Marymog, am not telling you, as you have accused me, to obey your elders and submit to them. Scripture tells you to do that. I made that clear in a previous post (#86).

CLEARLY I am not deflecting and have not been deflecting. BUT I will answer in a way that I THINK you want me to answer so you can't make the false allegation that I am deflecting:

I, Marymog, want you, Eternally Grateful, to obey your elders and submit to them because Scripture tells you to obey your elders and submit to them. I, Marymog, believe if we follow the instructions that God gave us we will be saved and I, Marymog, want you, Eternally Grateful, to be saved along with me. I, Marymog, feel bad for you, Eternally Grateful, that you have not found a church with elders that you can trust to follow so that you can fulfill the word of God. I, Marymog, have found that Church spoken of in Scripture! You haven't.

Is that better EG?

Mary

They did not submit to the elders.

They crucified Christ because they believed the false teachings of their religious leaders.

Its ok I understand why you do not want to even contemplate your church might be wrong.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where is the evidence for this allegation?

I know, I know, all the evidence for your allegation was destroyed so you can't back up what you say. You and @dev553344 crack me up.

All the evidence we could provide has been destroyed but we have no evidence that that evidence was destroyed and we have no evidence that OUR evidence was destroyed we just KNOW it was destroyed........

You ever read your own history?

it states that any heretical teachings were destroyed. And heretics were killed or put on remote islands where they were left to die.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where is the evidence for this allegation?

I know, I know, all the evidence for your allegation was destroyed so you can't back up what you say. You and @dev553344 crack me up.

All the evidence we could provide has been destroyed but we have no evidence that that evidence was destroyed and we have no evidence that OUR evidence was destroyed we just KNOW it was destroyed........

Here we are again.How many times have we been down this rabbit trail?

I will say it again,

we will both stand in front of God one day. One of us will be wrong, the other (may) be right.

if we are wrong. I have no one to blame but myself. And I will spend eternity contemplating why I believed the way I did

If your church is wrong (I will not say you because you admit you do not think for yourself) You can not use the excuse Gods church led you astray. Because if they were wrong, they prove they were not Gods church. And you will spend eternity wondering why you did not listen to people like me and so many others and stepped aside to study for yourself like so many other people did. And find out you were led astray so you could repent and come to the truth.

So believe however you will. I will pray for you. But eternity is far too long for me to read John 6, and the Catholic Churches explanation about how they have to keep eating this food. Or why Mary had children, yet the Catholic Church denies it, and there excuses why are paganistic in origin and make no sense biblically. Forcing them to keep their people looking to them by teaching scripture is not the final authority.

 

[Marymog]

Here we are again.How many times have we been down this rabbit trail?

I will say it again,

we will both stand in front of God one day. One of us will be wrong, the other (may) be right.

if we are wrong. I have no one to blame but myself. And I will spend eternity contemplating why I believed the way I did

If your church is wrong (I will not say you because you admit you do not think for yourself) You can not use the excuse Gods church led you astray. Because if they were wrong, they prove they were not Gods church. And you will spend eternity wondering why you did not listen to people like me and so many others and stepped aside to study for yourself like so many other people did. And find out you were led astray so you could repent and come to the truth.

So believe however you will. I will pray for you. But eternity is far too long for me to read John 6, and the Catholic Churches explanation about how they have to keep eating this food. Or why Mary had children, yet the Catholic Church denies it, and there excuses why are paganistic in origin and make no sense biblically. Forcing them to keep their people looking to them by teaching scripture is not the final authority.

Scripture says NOTHING about stepping aside to study for yourself to come to the truth.

Jesus said it IS his body/blood and to do it in memory of him. THAT is why we have to keep eating this food....because He TOLD us to. The 1st century Christians did it DAILY in remembrance of Him. Paul re-affirmed it IS His body/blood and for 2,000 years Christianity has taught that! You deny it.

No where at not time does Scripture EVER say Mary had other children. That is why it has been a disagreement for 500 years. For 2,000 Christianity has taught she DID NOT have other children. The teaching that she did started 500 years ago.

You LOOSE on EVERY point.....but since YOU think that YOU are the final authority YOU will never accept that.

 

[Marymog]

You ever read your own history?

it states that any heretical teachings were destroyed. And heretics were killed or put on remote islands where they were left to die.

Yes! I have made it very clear I have read my own history. And I have repeated it to destroy your opinions that you call fact. YOU on the other hand have made it very clear you don't know your own history.

The heretical teachings are still known, they were not destroyed. Christianity - Heretical Movements, Gnosticism, Arianism

But you don't know that because you don't know your own Christian history!

But at least we agree on something. They WERE heretical teachings. Why do you adhere to them?

 

[Marymog]

They did not submit to the elders.

They crucified Christ because they believed the false teachings of their religious leaders.

Its ok I understand why you do not want to even contemplate your church might be wrong.

ONE MORE TIME:

The average Jew DID NOT KILL JESUS. A lot of them converted to His teachings. The Romans killed Jesus at the bequest of the Jewish leadership. That is why he was crucified on a cross. The cross was the method the ROMANS used to kill.

According to Scripture The Church CAN'T be wrong since it is the pillar and foundation of truth. You are still looking for that Church....I have found it. I will continue to pray for you that you will someday learn the truth so that the truth will set you free.

There are some men in The Church who are wrong. But when the men of The Church speak in unison on a matter, The Church is not wrong. Just like Scripture says......but you skipped over those parts of Scripture....Didn't you?

 

[Cassandra]

This is not a lotto/gambling bet. This is a bet to mathematically and scientifically measure the strength of your belief. Put money where your mouth is. I am interested in finding out the strength of your belief mathematically. See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability.

This is about you and your beliefs. How strongly do you believe what you say you believe? Do you want to find out the strength of your belief? If you do, then bet on it. If you don't, ignore it.

For more scientific justification, click the link.

Where does the money go? Who collects? If it is based on number of dollars, some are poorer than others, so if someone only has 50.00 to their name, does betting all of that demonstrate less than someone betting one hundred?

I don't agree with Mary, but if she bet her eternal life on it, that has way more value than any dollar sign.

Probability is nothing more than probability.I went to a Jesuit College. One of the priests there taught philosophy. He asked the class how we knew if something was true. (We were speaking of science.) I told him by data--- that if we repeat the same experiment over and over and get the same results, that would pretty much prove it. He then told me, if that is true,that he could live forever, because he had no data to indicate otherwise .
I thought that was brilliant.