Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?

[quietthinker]

The Jews willingly took on the role of servants of God when God gave the law on Mount Sinai, and the Jews said: “All that the Lord has spoken we will do.”

They made lots of promises but didn't keep them. What's a promise not kept worth?
Hosea likens Israel to a whore.

In Isaiah 53 Israel is addressed through the metaphor "the servant", and therefore the language is in the singular, because "servant" is singular.

Israel has never desired servanthood.

 

[Fred J]

Bs"d

Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?

Christians say it is the messiah. The Jews say it is the Jewish people.

I think that it is obvious that the Jews are right also on this one.

What arguments can Christians bring that the suffering servant is the messiah?

True born again readers, listen and pay attention to a devote Jew, a student under a well know teacher in Israel, Gamaliel. He is Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee under the Law of Moses and Torah, among leader, rabbi and lawyer over the people of Israel. Who, had authority to persecute the church, where Stephen was his first victim, and pressing on furthermore.

While, on the way to Damascus to proceed, he was struck down, as one stumbled upon the corner stone the builders rejected. Who is the Lord Himself's voice from Heaven he encountered. Became blind and unable to eat for three days, visited by disciple Ananias sent by the Lord. Since, became born again as Paul, now able to 'see', moreover able to see in the spirit the Kingdom of GOD..

He who know the Law and Torah by heart, now with the Holy Spirit, gave the church revelation from Heaven, glad tidings. That, the Jews claiming Isaiah 53 then or today, never nor cannot obtain salvation through or by their Law of Moses covenant. But alone by GOD's covenantal promise made to Abraham, which is by and through one of his offspring a Jew, not offsprings Jews.

If the Law was sufficient for the Jews to obtain salvation, then why Moses have to prophesy another significant singe prophet to come? (Deut.18:18) While, according to the Old Testament after Moses, Israel received many chosen prophets, we have only from, Samuel to Malachi. Furthermore, the Jews periodically rebelled against GOD, Temple destroyed, either killed, scattered or exiled.

Then, redemption and reacceptance once again historically come by or through one or two chosen individual, either priests or prophets. These who are faithful, GOD ordain and send, are ones suffered in the hands of the Jews. While, Israel/Jews as a nation suffered for their own disobedience and rebellion against GOD.

Nevertheless, they are still beloved today because of their forefathers alone sake. Finally, the presence of GOD above the Ark of the Covenant chest in the Most Holy Place already left, changing places. When the Messiah breathe His last breath, the curtain at the Most Holy Place torn in two Now, HIS presence resides in the saints, the church, by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore true born again, eat and drink in the Spirit, revelation given Apostle Paul in Galatians 3:15-29 - The Law and the Promise - Also, one can carry on chapter 4.

Arguments with the blind?

For it is written, Isn't the blind leading the blind and soon they are going to fall into a ditch?

 

[Fred J]

Bs"d

Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?

Christians say it is the messiah. The Jews say it is the Jewish people.

I think that it is obvious that the Jews are right also on this one.

What arguments can Christians bring that the suffering servant is the messiah?

No arguments, unwise, only this question to you. You claim the Jews, are you a Jew, and who are the true Jews?

Thank you.

 

[Eliyahu613]

They made lots of promises but didn't keep them. What's a promise not kept worth?

Bs"d

Christians don't even promise to keep the law. They get hysterical when they hear the word "law".

The Jews at least for some time kept the law. Religious Jews still do.

Hosea likens Israel to a whore.

Israel has never desired servanthood.

Israel took up herself to be slaves of God and do the law of God.

 

[Eliyahu613]

No arguments, unwise, only this question to you. You claim the Jews, are you a Jew, and who are the true Jews?

Thank you.

Bs"d

The Jews are those who have a Jewish mother or who are converted to orthodox Judaism.

 

[quietthinker]

Christians don't even promise to keep the law. They get hysterical when they hear the word "law".

The Jews at least for some time kept the law. Religious Jews still do.

convenient sidestep.

Israel took up herself to be slaves of God and do the law of God.

ohhhhhh! .....and murder Jesus while they prided themselves on their law abiding special status!

 

[Eliyahu613]

convenient sidestep.

ohhhhhh! .....and murder Jesus while they prided themselves on their law abiding special status!

Bs"d

Blasphemers must be killed.

 

[quietthinker]

Bs"d

Blasphemers must be killed.

.......even while the Commandment says 'thou shalt not kill'?

 

[Fred J]

Bs"d

The Jews are those who have a Jewish mother or who are converted to orthodox Judaism.

And Gentile father?

Converts or proselytes are not considered true Jews?

True Jews for one, are those under the Law of Moses and Torah. Also together, under the sayings of the Prophets after Moses, in the books of the Prophets.

But, Judaism is a later made up sect, since the Temple is destroyed and no longer a Temple erected since. Apparently, for Jews to offer sacrifice and worship GOD according to the Law in covenant, but unable.

Therefore to make a change and yet have a following with the same GOD. Hence, they decided to follow added everyday living laws writings and books written by their rabbi forefathers instead.

Now, in the first criteria in regards who are the true Jews, you Judaizers do not qualify, nor can be legit Jews in the next.

 

[Fred J]

Bs"d

Christians don't even promise to keep the law. They get hysterical when they hear the word "law".

The Jews at least for some time kept the law. Religious Jews still do.

The Law of Moses, GOD gave and made a Covenant with the Israelites, who are Jews, and not with Christians.

Yet, not any one of you able to fulfill the requirements of the Law and the Prophets. Nor, any one of you able to find and obtain eternal life by and through them.

The Law was given and made with the Jews in order for them to know, their sins and their a sinner. Therefore, temporary sacrifices for the remission of sin according to the Law is required at the end of the day.

And only a Levi priest able inspect the animal or substances offered as sacrifices required by the Law. While, these sacrifices can only be conducted and offered in the Temple by a priest or high priest.

Again, a Jew's sin and sacrifice offered for the remission of sin is only for that day. Now, the next day will be a whole new cycle, all Jews sin once again, and end of the day the same rituals the Law requires.

So, stop the blaspheme of a new teaching you're proclaiming, that the Law is applicable for Christians. We born again Christians, GOD given and made with us the Law of Christ according to the New Testament in Covenant.

Israel took up herself to be slaves of God and do the law of God.

To be slaves of GOD and do the Law of GOD?

Don't flatter yourself being a Jew and blaspheme, because under the Law you end up slaves to sin and not GOD. Moreover, with no Temple you Jews cannot do the Law in completion, with no offering for the remission to sin and no worship until to date.

Mainly, the Law was added because of transgression by the Jews, over and over again historically. Since until today, the abandonment and absence of GOD and without a Temple to do the Law. That's why you Jews, spend time wailing at the 'wailing' wall'.

Their wailing hope is, that GOD would return and HE will restore the Temple and nation from their enemies. Meantime, their invented sect Judaism and Judaizers in the absence of GOD, ones proceed today in doing the everyday living laws given by their rabbi forefathers, that are written in books.

 

[Eliyahu613]

.......even while the Commandment says 'thou shalt not kill'?

Bs"d

"13 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 14 “Bring out of the camp the one who cursed, and let all who heard him lay their hands on his head, and let all the congregation stone him. 15 And speak to the people of Israel, saying, Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. 16 Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death."

Lev 24

 

[Eliyahu613]

And Gentile father?

Bs"d

Considered to be a non-Jew.

Converts or proselytes are not considered true Jews?

They are considered true Jews.

True Jews for one, are those under the Law of Moses and Torah. Also together, under the sayings of the Prophets after Moses, in the books of the Prophets.

But, Judaism is a later made up sect, since the Temple is destroyed and no longer a Temple erected since. Apparently, for Jews to offer sacrifice and worship GOD according to the Law in covenant, but unable.

Therefore to make a change and yet have a following with the same GOD. Hence, they decided to follow added everyday living laws writings and books written by their rabbi forefathers instead.

Now, in the first criteria in regards who are the true Jews, you Judaizers do not qualify, nor can be legit Jews in the next.

For the Jews all the laws of the Torah are still in effect.

 

[Eliyahu613]

The Law of Moses, GOD gave and made a Covenant with the Israelites, who are Jews, and not with Christians.

Yet, not any one of you able to fulfill the requirements of the Law and the Prophets. Nor, any one of you able to find and obtain eternal life by and through them.

The Law was given and made with the Jews in order for them to know, their sins and their a sinner. Therefore, temporary sacrifices for the remission of sin according to the Law is required at the end of the day.

And only a Levi priest able inspect the animal or substances offered as sacrifices required by the Law. While, these sacrifices can only be conducted and offered in the Temple by a priest or high priest.

Again, a Jew's sin and sacrifice offered for the remission of sin is only for that day. Now, the next day will be a whole new cycle, all Jews sin once again, and end of the day the same rituals the Law requires.

So, stop the blaspheme of a new teaching you're proclaiming, that the Law is applicable for Christians. We born again Christians, GOD given and made with us the Law of Christ according to the New Testament in Covenant.



To be slaves of GOD and do the Law of GOD?

Don't flatter yourself being a Jew and blaspheme, because under the Law you end up slaves to sin and not GOD. Moreover, with no Temple you Jews cannot do the Law in completion, with no offering for the remission to sin and no worship until to date.

Mainly, the Law was added because of transgression by the Jews, over and over again historically. Since until today, the abandonment and absence of GOD and without a Temple to do the Law. That's why you Jews, spend time wailing at the 'wailing' wall'.

Their wailing hope is, that GOD would return and HE will restore the Temple and nation from their enemies. Meantime, their invented sect Judaism and Judaizers in the absence of GOD, ones proceed today in doing the everyday living laws given by their rabbi forefathers, that are written in books.

Bs"d

All the laws of the Torah are still in effect. The laws which involve the Temple cannot be done anymore, but the rest is done.

Soon the Temple will be rebuild, and then the whole Torah can be done again.

 

[quietthinker]

Bs"d

"13 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 14 “Bring out of the camp the one who cursed, and let all who heard him lay their hands on his head, and let all the congregation stone him. 15 And speak to the people of Israel, saying, Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. 16 Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death."

Lev 24

do we have a schizophrenic God?

 

[Fred J]

Considered to be a non-Jew.

That's not the case, according to the Law, Gentile father and Jewish mother or vice verse, are considered, 'outcast', and shun from the community.

That's why an outcast spoke in the past to Jesus that, you Jews worship in the Temple, while we at Mont Sinai.

They are considered true Jews.

According to yourself, they're not, but they are welcomed to worship the only true GOD.

For the Jews all the laws of the Torah are still in effect.

Sorry to say, in their dilemma perhaps, still holding on to the Law and without a Temple, apparently without full compliant.,

Allow me to refresh your memory, you're not a true Jew going by your testimony of faith. First, if you obey and comply even to one letter in the Law, you must obey and comply to all therein. Second, if you disobey to one letter of the Law, you disobey all and under curse.

True Jews don't know the mystery that born again Christians only know. Even though, apparently they're not or unable, in full obedience and compliance to the Law of Moses, and are under curse.

They are still loved, spared and protected by GOD, just for the sake of their forefathers who truly walked with GOD. Now, in regards the Gospel they are enemies of GOD, but in regards election they are beloved.

Apparently, through one of Abraham offspring that is Messiah Jesus, came Salvation to Jews and Gentiles, if only they believe. In the time and period of the Gospel's grace and truth still available, judgement on unbelieving Jews and Gentiles have not been pronounce yet.

That day will catch every one by surprise. like a thief in the night, when one is least expected. For is written, Come into the Light while the Light is still with you. So when gross darkness takes over, you will not stumble.

 

[Fred J]

Bs"d

All the laws of the Torah are still in effect.

Only for the Jews being in their temporal dilemma, but is ineffective mind you.

The laws which involve the Temple cannot be done anymore, but the rest is done.

Again, you cannot do one part of the Law and neglect the other, you're not a true Jew.

Soon the Temple will be rebuild, and then the whole Torah can be done again.

One, the mosque dome of the rock in on the Temple site, so how can it be rebuilt?

The Messiah Jesus did prophesy 2023 years ago, that the third Temple will be rebuild in the future. For the record, it is not through the only true GOD and HIS messenger, but through the devil and his messenger the son of perdition.

The false messiah and with him a false prophet performing signs and wonders from the sky. Together they shall deceive the whole world, even Israel, even to erect an image of the false messiah that speaks. He implement the implant of his mark of himself on the hands and forehead of every citizens of the world, in order for them to buy and sell worldwide. Which the only true GOD forbid HIS people to receive, or be separated from HIM eternally.

This false messiah solely will rule over all the leaders of each country, who gives him the authority to do so. He together with the rebellion world against the only true GOD, even Israel join together, will persecute the true Christians worldwide.

Now, the sign to watch out for, that this false messiah is in the scene already and will be broadcast. First, he will make a peace treaty with Israel. Second, the Jews will be allowed to rebuild their Temple, and daily sacrifice will resume according to the Law of Moses, which is already ineffective anyway.

Then later over time, he will break the treaty and stop the Jews from operating in the Temple. He will take over the Temple and make his throne there in the most holy place, as god.

Remember, we are telling the Jews and Gentiles this before all this happens, since and until now 2023 years gone.

 

[quietthinker]

The false messiah and with him a false prophet performing signs and wonders from the sky. Together they shall deceive the whole world, even Israel, even to erect an image of the false messiah that speaks. He implement the implant of his mark of himself on the hands and forehead of every citizens of the world, in order for them to buy and sell worldwide. Which the only true GOD forbid HIS people to receive, or be separated from HIM eternally.

This false messiah solely will rule over all the leaders of each country, who gives him the authority to do so. He together with the rebellion world against the only true GOD, even Israel join together, will persecute the true Christians worldwide.

Now, the sign to watch out for, that this false messiah is in the scene already and will be broadcast. First, he will make a peace treaty with Israel. Second, the Jews will be allowed to rebuild their Temple, and daily sacrifice will resume according to the Law of Moses, which is already ineffective anyway.

Then later over time, he will break the treaty and stop the Jews from operating in the Temple. He will take over the Temple and make his throne there in the most holy place, as god.

Remember, we are telling the Jews and Gentiles this before all this happens, since and until now 2023 years gone.

I do not find this eschatological interpretation/ explanation satisfactory. In fact I find it a decoy which is and will be believed by most 'christians'. It sidesteps the whole purpose of the Revelation and focuses in on Ribera's interpretation ie, that of the counter reformation which to those who are unfamiliar with it is Rome's counter to the Reformers position re the Antichrist.

The false prophet promotes and orders an image made to the Beast. What does this mean? It means that Protestantism at large who initially protested the abuses of Rome has now joined hands with Rome and is promoting Rome's agenda......and a part of that is reinterpreting the Prophecies which expose Rome's teachings as a lie.

'If you have ears to hear then hear' ....Jesus.

 

[Fred J]

I do not find this eschatological interpretation/ explanation satisfactory. In fact I find it a decoy which is and will be believed by most 'christians'. It sidesteps the whole purpose of the Revelation and focuses in on Ribera's interpretation ie, that of the counter reformation which to those who are unfamiliar with it is Rome's counter to the Reformers position re the Antichrist.

The false prophet promotes and orders an image made to the Beast. What does this mean? It means that Protestantism at large who initially protested the abuses of Rome has now joined hands with Rome and is promoting Rome's agenda......and a part of that is reinterpreting the Prophecies which expose Rome's teachings as a lie.

'If you have ears to hear then hear' ....Jesus.

Apparently, you are deceived believing in a man made doctrine that says otherwise.

Many prediction of the anti-CHRIST person have been made, but none of them came true either.

 

[quietthinker]

Apparently, you are deceived believing in a man made doctrine that says otherwise.

Many prediction of the anti-CHRIST person have been made, but none of them came true either.

do you know about Francisco Ribera?......do you know what he contributed to the Church of Rome?
are you aware of the position of the larger percentage of Protestants?

If you don't it's information worth knowing.....for your own understanding.

 

[Eliyahu613]

That's not the case, according to the Law, Gentile father and Jewish mother or vice verse, are considered, 'outcast', and shun from the community.

Bs"d

Somebody with a Jewish mother and non-Jewish father is considered to be a full Jew.

That's why an outcast spoke in the past to Jesus that, you Jews worship in the Temple, while we at Mont Sinai.

According to yourself, they're not, but they are welcomed to worship the only true GOD.

Sorry to say, in their dilemma perhaps, still holding on to the Law and without a Temple, apparently without full compliant.,

Allow me to refresh your memory, you're not a true Jew going by your testimony of faith. First, if you obey and comply even to one letter in the Law, you must obey and comply to all therein. Second, if you disobey to one letter of the Law, you disobey all and under curse.

Saying that "if you transgress one law you transgressed them all" is nonsense. What is the punishment if somebody steals a bread? Then he must return two breads.

But according to you he transgressed then all the laws, also the law against murder and blasphemy, and therefore he must be killed.

That of course doesn't make any sense, and that principle was never used in Biblical times.

True Jews don't know the mystery that born again Christians only know. Even though, apparently they're not or unable, in full obedience and compliance to the Law of Moses, and are under curse.

They are still loved, spared and protected by GOD, just for the sake of their forefathers who truly walked with GOD. Now, in regards the Gospel they are enemies of GOD, but in regards election they are beloved.

Apparently, through one of Abraham offspring that is Messiah Jesus, came Salvation to Jews and Gentiles, if only they believe. In the time and period of the Gospel's grace and truth still available, judgement on unbelieving Jews and Gentiles have not been pronounce yet.

That day will catch every one by surprise. like a thief in the night, when one is least expected. For is written, Come into the Light while the Light is still with you. So when gross darkness takes over, you will not stumble.

Your messiah didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, and therefore he was not the messiah.