The Didache on the coming of the world-deceiver: What 1st and 2nd century saints were taught

[Peterlag]

If you have Scripture which disproves Romans 16:4, please quote it.

The Scripture is good. It's your understanding that is bad. Paul is saying this was my ministry to go after the Gentiles and Peter's ministry was different because he went after the Jews. So Paul is saying this is the group that I built. The Christians who were once Gentiles. Gentiles are not Christian and so you can't have half Christian and half non Christian and call them Gentile Christian. Such a concept does not fit with the context and scope of all the rest of Scripture. We not only need to watch to whom it is addressed and watch our time. But we much also understand a verse in relation to fitting with the rest of the Bible and not picking a verse that dose not fit with the rest of the Bible.

 

[covenantee]

The Scripture is good. It's your understanding that is bad. Paul is saying this was my ministry to go after the Gentiles and Peter's ministry was different because he went after the Jews. So Paul is saying this is the group that I built. The Christians who were once Gentiles. Gentiles are not Christian and so you can't have half Christian and half non Christian and call them Gentile Christian. Such a concept does not fit with the context and scope of all the rest of Scripture. We not only need to watch to whom it is addressed and watch our time. But we much also understand a verse in relation to fitting with the rest of the Bible and not picking a verse that dose not fit with the rest of the Bible.

There is no "Christians who were once Gentiles" in the verse. That is your imposition. There is "the churches of the Gentiles", an extant reality when Paul wrote.

Churches comprised of Christians.

Gentile Christians.

Genetically, Gentiles.

Spiritually, Christians.

 

[covenantee]

Again, you look at men and see it from your own eyes that Paul was still a man. I see it from God's eyes that Paul was in the spirit and it's the spirit that the New Testament is written about. There is no such thing in God's eyes written in the New Testament about a half flesh half spirit man. Or as you put it a Gentile Christian. Men talk like this. You talk like this. Paul mentioned it once because his ministry was to go to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews. But God does not talk like this. God either sees you dead in sin in your flesh as a Gentile or He sees you as a Christian in Christ.

God saw all of Paul's flesh ( in which He gave Paul a thorn), and all of Paul's spirit (His apostle to the Gentiles).

No "half and half".

 

[covenantee]

Can we agree that Gentiles are in the flesh without the spirit of Christ? They might be nice guys, but they mean nothing to God unless He or some Apostle can get them born again? I use the word Apostle because we are talking about the time period when the Scriptures were written. Now if this is true then how do we get a man that is half born again and half not born again and then call him a Gentile Christian? And a lot of people believe what I write. Do you not understand that those in the flesh do not belong to God?

Romans 8:-8-9
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Your problem is your inability to understand what Paul's reference to the flesh means. It refers to a spiritual condition, not a genetic status. There is no reference to "Gentile" in the spiritual context described below.

From Romans 8:8 Greek:

4561 [e]
sarki
σαρκὶ
flesh
N-DFS

"to be in the power of the flesh, under the control of the flesh, Romans 8:8 "

"4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions) according to self – i.e. done apart from faith (independent from God's inworking). Thus what is "of the flesh (carnal)" is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem "respectable!" In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are empowered by self. This is carnal ("of the flesh") and proceeds out of the untouched (unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God."

 

[Peterlag]

Your problem is your inability to understand what Paul's reference to the flesh means. It refers to a spiritual condition, not a genetic status. There is no reference to "Gentile" in the spiritual context described below.

From Romans 8:8 Greek:

4561 [e]
sarki
σαρκὶ
flesh
N-DFS

"to be in the power of the flesh, under the control of the flesh, Romans 8:8 "

"4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions) according to self – i.e. done apart from faith (independent from God's inworking). Thus what is "of the flesh (carnal)" is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem "respectable!" In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are empowered by self. This is carnal ("of the flesh") and proceeds out of the untouched (unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God."

Let me try to see if I can understand what you just wrote.

Do you agree that the Bible uses the word "flesh" in the New Testament mostly to refer to our old man nature?

Matthew
the spirit indeed is willing but the flesh is weak
Mark
The spirit truly is ready but the flesh is weak
John
the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
It is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing
Romans
by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight
when we were in the flesh
I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing
who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit
they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh
they that are in the flesh cannot please God
But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit
if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you
we are debtors not to the flesh to live after the flesh
make not provision for the flesh to fulfil the lusts thereof
1 Corinthians
That no flesh should glory in his presence
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
2 Corinthians
For though we walk in the flesh we do not war after the flesh
Galatians
having begun in the Spirit are ye now made perfect by the flesh
Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh
the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh
the works of the flesh are manifest
that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts
Ephesians
we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood
Philippians
rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh
Colossians
putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ

 

[Peterlag]

God saw all of Paul's flesh ( in which He gave Paul a thorn), and all of Paul's spirit (His apostle to the Gentiles).

No "half and half".

The word "flesh" here is referring to his physical body which we still have. We were all taught to understand language's we must read the word in the context.

 

[Peterlag]

There is no "Christians who were once Gentiles" in the verse. That is your imposition. There is "the churches of the Gentiles", an extant reality when Paul wrote.

Churches comprised of Christians.

Gentile Christians.

Genetically, Gentiles.

Spiritually, Christians.

The word "churches of the Gentiles" does not fit with the rest of the Bible in the way that you are saying it means. And so we cannot use a verse that contradicts the rest of the Bible.

 

[covenantee]

Let me try to see if I can understand what you just wrote.

Do you agree that the Bible uses the word "flesh" in the New Testament mostly to refer to our old man nature?

Matthew
the spirit indeed is willing but the flesh is weak
Mark
The spirit truly is ready but the flesh is weak
John
the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
It is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing
Romans
by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight
when we were in the flesh
I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing
who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit
they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh
they that are in the flesh cannot please God
But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit
if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you
we are debtors not to the flesh to live after the flesh
make not provision for the flesh to fulfil the lusts thereof
1 Corinthians
That no flesh should glory in his presence
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
2 Corinthians
For though we walk in the flesh we do not war after the flesh
Galatians
having begun in the Spirit are ye now made perfect by the flesh
Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh
the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh
the works of the flesh are manifest
that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts
Ephesians
we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood
Philippians
rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh
Colossians
putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ

Certainly.

And they have nothing to do with "Gentiles".

 

[covenantee]

The word "churches of the Gentiles" does not fit with the rest of the Bible in the way that you are saying it means. And so we cannot use a verse that contradicts the rest of the Bible.

It is inspired and cannot "contradict the rest of the Bible".

What I am saying it means is consistent with what every other recognized interpreter and translator in orthodox Christian history says that it means.

 

[Peterlag]

It is inspired and cannot "contradict the rest of the Bible".

What I am saying it means is consistent with what every other recognized interpreter and translator in orthodox Christian history says that it means.

It means an unbeliever. A human who was not Jewish and who is also not born again of God's spirit. It means that all throughout the New Testament. For you to say there's such a thing as a Gentile Christian makes no sense and has nothing to do with biblical data.

 

[Peterlag]

Certainly.

And they have nothing to do with "Gentiles".

So you think the word "Gentiles" are Christians when used in the New Testament. I do not see that.

 

[covenantee]

So you think the word "Gentiles" are Christians when used in the New Testament. I do not see that.

It refers to ethnic/genetic status. Nothing to do with Christian.

 

[covenantee]

It means an unbeliever. A human who was not Jewish and who is also not born again of God's spirit. It means that all throughout the New Testament. For you to say there's such a thing as a Gentile Christian makes no sense and has nothing to do with biblical data.

It does not mean unbeliever. You're the only one who believes that, and you're unable to provide a particle of recognized support for your belief.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I'm looking at this from God's view because He wrote the book. You see Gentiles. He does not.

I would never assume I know God’s thoughts. As his ways are not ours and his thoughts have never entered the minds of men. Opinions are great. But let’s not speak for God or assume we know His thoughts.

 

[covenantee]

It means an unbeliever. A human who was not Jewish and who is also not born again of God's spirit. It means that all throughout the New Testament. For you to say there's such a thing as a Gentile Christian makes no sense and has nothing to do with biblical data.

Galatians 2:3
But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

Titus was a Christian friend and companion of Paul.

Paul identified him as a Greek, i.e. Gentile.

 

[Zao is life]

Can we agree that Gentiles are in the flesh without the spirit of Christ? They might be nice guys, but they mean nothing to God unless He or some Apostle can get them born again? I use the word Apostle because we are talking about the time period when the Scriptures were written. Now if this is true then how do we get a man that is half born again and half not born again and then call him a Gentile Christian? And a lot of people believe what I write. Do you not understand that those in the flesh do not belong to God?

Romans 8:-8-9
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

It's only you who is conflating the word "Gentile" with the word "unbeliever" and implying that every time you see the word "Gentile" in the New Testament scriptures, it's talking about unbelievers.

But Paul did not have the same conflated definition as you:

Romans 9
22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory -
24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
25 As he also says in Hosea:

"I will call those who were not my people, 'My people,' and I will call her who was unloved, 'My beloved.'"

26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

Galatians 2
8 (for he who empowered Peter for his apostleship to the circumcised also empowered me for my apostleship to the Gentiles)

12 Until certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision.

14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

Galatians 3
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.

Ephesians 3
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles -

Ephesians 3
6 namely, that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.1

Timothy 2
7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle - I am telling the truth; I am not lying - and a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Ephesians 2
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh - who are called "uncircumcision" by the so-called "circumcision" that is performed on the body by human hands -

THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN GENTILES WHO ARE CHRISTIANS AND GENTILES WHO ARE UNBELIEVERS:

1 Thessalonians 4
3 For this is God's will: that you become holy, that you keep away from sexual immorality,
4 that each of you know how to possess his own body in holiness and honor,
5 not in lustful passion like the Gentiles who do not know God.

The New Testament talks about Jews ("the circumcised") who are Christians and about Gentiles who are Christians, throughout the New Testament, making a distinction between them, though we are taught and understand that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

God only sees Christ in His presence in the holy of holies in heaven, and those who are in Him through faith in Him, but God is omniscient and omnipresent so He also sees all unbelievers on earth who need His salvation - but God Himself, who inspired the scriptures, does not conflate the word "Gentiles" with "unbelievers" any more than He conflates the word "Jews" with "unbelievers" and God Himself knows the distinction between the circumcision and the uncircumcision.

You guys (you anyone who you say agrees with you) are so full of human intellect that you cannot even understand basic things like this.

 

[Peterlag]

It's only you who is conflating the word "Gentile" with the word "unbeliever" and implying that every time you see the word "Gentile" in the New Testament scriptures, it's talking about unbelievers.

But Paul did not have the same conflated definition as you:

Romans 9
22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory -
24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
25 As he also says in Hosea:

"I will call those who were not my people, 'My people,' and I will call her who was unloved, 'My beloved.'"

26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

Galatians 2
8 (for he who empowered Peter for his apostleship to the circumcised also empowered me for my apostleship to the Gentiles)

12 Until certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision.

14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

Galatians 3
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.

Ephesians 3
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles -

Ephesians 3
6 namely, that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.1

Timothy 2
7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle - I am telling the truth; I am not lying - and a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Ephesians 2
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh - who are called "uncircumcision" by the so-called "circumcision" that is performed on the body by human hands -

THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN GENTILES WHO ARE CHRISTIANS AND GENTILES WHO ARE UNBELIEVERS:

1 Thessalonians 4
3 For this is God's will: that you become holy, that you keep away from sexual immorality,
4 that each of you know how to possess his own body in holiness and honor,
5 not in lustful passion like the Gentiles who do not know God.

The New Testament talks about Jews ("the circumcised") who are Christians and about Gentiles who are Christians, throughout the New Testament, making a distinction between them, though we are taught and understand that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

God only sees Christ in His presence in the holy of holies in heaven, and those who are in Him through faith in Him, but God is omniscient and omnipresent so He also sees all unbelievers on earth who need His salvation - but God Himself, who inspired the scriptures, does not conflate the word "Gentiles" with "unbelievers" any more than He conflates the word "Jews" with "unbelievers" and God Himself knows the distinction between the circumcision and the uncircumcision.

You guys (you anyone who you say agrees with you) are so full of human intellect that you cannot even understand basic things like this.

It just blows my mind how yours works. This verse is talking about those who were called as both Jews and Gentiles to be Christians.

24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This verse means Peter's ministry was to go to the Jews to try to get them born again and Paul to the Gentiles to try to get them born again.

8 (for he who empowered Peter for his apostleship to the circumcised also empowered me for my apostleship to the Gentiles)

He's telling them his ministry is to talk with them the Gentiles to let them know that they to can be born again...

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles -

The verse means they were eating with those who were not Jewish and it does not matter if one group was Jewish or one group was Gentiles anymore because none of that matters anymore is the context and scope of that verse. It is not to show there was such a thing as Gentile Christians from God's point of view.

Until certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles.

 

[Peterlag]

Galatians 2:3
But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

Titus was a Christian friend and companion of Paul.

Paul identified him as a Greek, i.e. Gentile.

The context is that he was not a Jew and yet someone still wanted him circumcised. The context is not that God saw him as both a Christian and a Greek.

 

[Peterlag]

I would never assume I know God’s thoughts. As his ways are not ours and his thoughts have never entered the minds of men. Opinions are great. But let’s not speak for God or assume we know His thoughts.

I disagree. The Word of the Lord does come to me from time to time. And I am an Ambassador for the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

It does not mean unbeliever. You're the only one who believes that, and you're unable to provide a particle of recognized support for your belief.

I have given you a lot of data and Scripture on this subject but you cannot see it. Either you are blind to it or probably just looking at it from your own image. Looking at it from God's image there's not such thing as Jews or Gentiles once you are born again. There are all one in Christ.